How Memphis Can Still Launch a Post-JA ERA (HOU/LAL)

[schaffy]

I think the first deal probably overvalues Ja and the 2nd one undervalues Edey (or overvalue Knecht I guess?).

[esvl]

the 2022-23 Grizzlies winning those games without him was kind of inexplicable and I don't really have an answer for it, but his on-off numbers were still fantastic, despite that.

Regardless of how you feel, I'm taking the dual threat scoring/playmaking PG with supernatural athleticism over a rather defensively exploitable big man who doesn't even approach league average shooting efficiency for a big man when building a team, and I'll gamble on Ja's health/off court issues for it any day of the week. Just much easier to build around.

Ideally though, neither of them is your team's best player if you're trying to win anything, and thankfully for Houston, they just traded scraps for a better player. Hope it all works out for them.

Don’t waste your time. Ja haters will hate anyway.

Different Opinion =/= Hating

Based on what I have read from you on Ja, it looks like either hate or ignorance. Typically hate because it is hard to stay ignorant when you watch Ja playing bb.

[ReggiesKnicks]

Don’t waste your time. Ja haters will hate anyway.

Different Opinion =/= Hating

Based on what I have read from you on Ja, it looks like either hate or ignorance. Typically hate because it is hard to stay ignorant when you watch Ja playing bb.

I posted statistics and shared my opinion, which was in part supported by the statistics I had presented.

I have a different opinion from you on Sengun and Ja.

I hope Ja can stay healthy for a full season and into the postseason.

[eitanr]

I think the upside thinking or love for Ja aesthetically is why I like this concept for Memphis. There's clearly a book value vs. market value concept with players. I do believe aesthetics and subjectivity are inflated a bit with Ja though, and deflated with Senguin, causing a decent chasm in market values - despite the recent off court stuff with Ja.

Ja is a talent, no question. He also did have a 32.7% usage and if Memphis wants to contend they do need to re-jigger. Adding quality firsts here is key for Memphis, as it just means way better capitial, as they build a more socialisitic offense, and a team predicated on more defensive first energy, part of their blue collar ethos. Finally, Memphis needs a unit where there is more opportunity for organic growth in hopes of some talents hitting. A high usage talent tends to overshadow such growth.

[esvl]

Guys Ja is a franchise superstar, and he stays in Memphis. Nothing to discuss here.

[eitanr]

Guys Ja is a franchise superstar, and he stays in Memphis. Nothing to discuss here.

It’s aesthetics/subjectivity v objectivity - which js why this is a clever approach for Memphis:

Senguin: avg 72 games per season over last 3, avg 19/21 PPG last two season, 18% TRB, 4% stocks, 24% assist rate, 13% TOV, 26% usage, 2.6 OBPM/1.8 DPM - age 22

Morant: avg 35 games per season over last 3. Even when he was ‘healthy’ he averaged 62 games his prior four seasons. 23/25 PPG over last two seasons, 36% assist rate, 2.6% stocks, 15% TOV, 22% usage, 3.1 OBPM/-0.7 DPM - age 25

If you compare both, it should be clear that Senguin should be worth more…right now. He’s 3 years younger, plays more games, is way more effecient, and gives you better defense and similar offensive metrics.

But…and I’ll say the quiet part out loud, and yes this is coming off the Luka deal after math, I do believe there’s still a subconscious dislike/devaluation fans and some GMs even, have of the white European star talents. I know Joker won a ton of MvPs. But if he weren’t a white European I do believe the discussions would be centered around his place among the top center greats vs whether he was worthy of his MvPs. If you polled GMs, I’m unsure how many would place him greater than say Hakeem Olajuwon all time. And that’s even on this forum.

That notion causes a gap in market value, which Memphis should take advantage of. It’s not too hard to see that Senguin probably won’t be an ideal fit with Durant. Houston has made their made, and would like to prioritize Amen over him. They now have center depth. If Houston doesn’t start off killing it, they consider this…with picks.

And if those phoenix picks are added (alone with Reed), even one Phoenix first (likely top 5)..:this is a no brainer for Memphis. Two firsts? It’s competitive with the Pierce/Kg nets trade. More? Move over Red, we have a new GM ransom king in town!


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[esvl]

Guys Ja is a franchise superstar, and he stays in Memphis. Nothing to discuss here.

It’s aesthetics/subjectivity v objectivity - which js why this is a clever approach for Memphis:

Senguin: avg 72 games per season over last 3, avg 19/21 PPG last two season, 18% TRB, 4% stocks, 24% assist rate, 13% TOV, 26% usage, 2.6 OBPM/1.8 DPM - age 22

Morant: avg 35 games per season over last 3. Even when he was ‘healthy’ he averaged 62 games his prior four seasons. 23/25 PPG over last two seasons, 36% assist rate, 2.6% stocks, 15% TOV, 22% usage, 3.1 OBPM/-0.7 DPM - age 25

If you compare both, it should be clear that Senguin should be worth more…right now. He’s 3 years younger, plays more games, is way more effecient, and gives you better defense and similar offensive metrics.

But…and I’ll say the quiet part out loud, and yes this is coming off the Luka deal after math, I do believe there’s still a subconscious dislike/devaluation fans and some GMs even, have of the white European star talents. I know Joker won a ton of MvPs. But if he weren’t a white European I do believe the discussions would be centered around his place among the top center greats vs whether he was worthy of his MvPs. If you polled GMs, I’m unsure how many would place him greater than say Hakeem Olajuwon all time. And that’s even on this forum.

That notion causes a gap in market value, which Memphis should take advantage of. It’s not too hard to see that Senguin probably won’t be an ideal fit with Durant. Houston has made their made, and would like to prioritize Amen over him. They now have center depth. If Houston doesn’t start off killing it, they consider this…with picks.

And if those phoenix picks are added (alone with Reed), even one Phoenix first (likely top 5)..:this is a no brainer for Memphis. Two firsts? It’s competitive with the Pierce/Kg nets trade. More? Move over Red, we have a new GM ransom king in town!


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Man, you can do this trade in your fantasy league any time you want. What people are trying to tell you here is that it will never happen in reality. And your beliefs, feelings and interpretation of stats are irrelevant. Ja isn’t comparable to Sengun, who is a phenomenal player I genuinely like and respect.

[PistolPeteJR]

Ja's overrated in my books, not just because of the availability woes, but also maturity, as we've seen over the past two seasons or so especially. I think Sengun + Sheppard is something Memphis could consider if they moved off Edey and got themselves an FVV-type. Maybe the trade can be expanded to include FVV somehow.

That said, I don't think Houston should do this in the first place lol.

Anyway, I don't quite understand what Memphis is looking to do post-Bane move.

[esvl]

Ja's overrated in my books, not just because of the availability woes, but also maturity, as we've seen over the past two seasons or so especially. I think Sengun + Sheppard is something Memphis could consider if they moved off Edey and got themselves an FVV-type. Maybe the trade can be expanded to include FVV somehow.

That said, I don't think Houston should do this in the first place lol.

Anyway, I don't quite understand what Memphis is looking to do post-Bane move.

I don’t know why you are confused. We are building a team around Ja and JJJ, which is pretty evident for most fans around.

[PistolPeteJR]

Ja's overrated in my books, not just because of the availability woes, but also maturity, as we've seen over the past two seasons or so especially. I think Sengun + Sheppard is something Memphis could consider if they moved off Edey and got themselves an FVV-type. Maybe the trade can be expanded to include FVV somehow.

That said, I don't think Houston should do this in the first place lol.

Anyway, I don't quite understand what Memphis is looking to do post-Bane move.

I don’t know why you are confused. We are building a team around Ja and JJJ, which is pretty evident for most fans around.

For the reason I mentioned above: Ja's overrated in my books. I don't have any confidence in him being a player I can win a championship with as my #1 option.

[esvl]

Ja's overrated in my books, not just because of the availability woes, but also maturity, as we've seen over the past two seasons or so especially. I think Sengun + Sheppard is something Memphis could consider if they moved off Edey and got themselves an FVV-type. Maybe the trade can be expanded to include FVV somehow.

That said, I don't think Houston should do this in the first place lol.

Anyway, I don't quite understand what Memphis is looking to do post-Bane move.

I don’t know why you are confused. We are building a team around Ja and JJJ, which is pretty evident for most fans around.

For the reason I mentioned above: Ja's overrated in my books. I don't have any confidence in him being a player I can win a championship with as my #1 option.

You are misrepresenting your subjective fears as objective. In reality, Ja is a great young franchise superstar, phenomenal talent, character, and leader.

[PistolPeteJR]

I don’t know why you are confused. We are building a team around Ja and JJJ, which is pretty evident for most fans around.

For the reason I mentioned above: Ja's overrated in my books. I don't have any confidence in him being a player I can win a championship with as my #1 option.

You are misrepresenting your subjective fears as objective. In reality, Ja is a great young franchise superstar, phenomenal talent, character, and leader.

So what you're saying is you're the measuring stick for objectivity, and anyone who differs from your opinion is subjective. Got it.

You're entitled to your take as everyone else is. I shared mine in this discussion thread. We can agree to disagree.

Good day.

[QMemphis]

Ja's overrated in my books, not just because of the availability woes, but also maturity, as we've seen over the past two seasons or so especially. I think Sengun + Sheppard is something Memphis could consider if they moved off Edey and got themselves an FVV-type. Maybe the trade can be expanded to include FVV somehow.

That said, I don't think Houston should do this in the first place lol.

Anyway, I don't quite understand what Memphis is looking to do post-Bane move.

I don’t know why you are confused. We are building a team around Ja and JJJ, which is pretty evident for most fans around.

For the reason I mentioned above: Ja's overrated in my books. I don't have any confidence in him being a player I can win a championship with as my #1 option.

Unless you believe Bane who was our third best player was our best player how would trading him make you confused about direction. You stated you don’t believe in Ja as #1 then you should be acknowledging that a retool makes sense for a team that had reached much of its ceiling with the Ja/Bane/Jaren.

Getting back to a defensive identity is important for the Grizz as the city of Memphis identifies better with defensive toughness.

Ja is a better number 1 than Sengun and a better player overall considering ability to score and ability to make others better.

[PistolPeteJR]

I don’t know why you are confused. We are building a team around Ja and JJJ, which is pretty evident for most fans around.

For the reason I mentioned above: Ja's overrated in my books. I don't have any confidence in him being a player I can win a championship with as my #1 option.

Unless you believe Bane who was our third best player was our best player how would trading him make you confused about direction. You stated you don’t believe in Ja as #1 then you should be acknowledging that a retool makes sense for a team that had reached much of its ceiling with the Ja/Bane/Jaren.

Getting back to a defensive identity is important for the Grizz as the city of Memphis identifies better with defensive toughness.

Ja is a better number 1 than Sengun and a better player overall considering ability to score and ability to make others better.

Okay, let me explain.

In the first place, I think Bane was your 3rd best player, yes, but I also think he was your most well-rounded player and scorer due to his shooting. His ability to create for himself was very valuable for your team, but he's a lot more reliable from an availability standpoint and a better shooter than Ja. I think having him next to Ja and JJJ was a great, great fit. That's why I don't understand it. Granted, cap is a thing, but if they're looking to win, KCP in exchange for him ain't it.

What I think they should have done is moved Ja and kept Bane and JJJ, because I don't believe in Ja's reliability healthwise, not in the short or long-term equally, nor do I believe in Ja's maturity as a leader.

Yes, I think Ja is a better #1 than Sengun is, but I think long-term, Bane/JJJ/Sengun+ (Sengun+ being what, hypothetically, Houston would trade) > Ja/Bane/JJJ for the reasons I mentioned.

[QMemphis]

For the reason I mentioned above: Ja's overrated in my books. I don't have any confidence in him being a player I can win a championship with as my #1 option.

Unless you believe Bane who was our third best player was our best player how would trading him make you confused about direction. You stated you don’t believe in Ja as #1 then you should be acknowledging that a retool makes sense for a team that had reached much of its ceiling with the Ja/Bane/Jaren.

Getting back to a defensive identity is important for the Grizz as the city of Memphis identifies better with defensive toughness.

Ja is a better number 1 than Sengun and a better player overall considering ability to score and ability to make others better.

Okay, let me explain.

In the first place, I think Bane was your 3rd best player, yes, but I also think he was your most well-rounded player and scorer due to his shooting. His ability to create for himself was very valuable for your team, but he's a lot more reliable from an availability standpoint and a better shooter than Ja. I think having him next to Ja and JJJ was a great, great fit. That's why I don't understand it. Granted, cap is a thing, but if they're looking to win, KCP in exchange for him ain't it.

What I think they should have done is moved Ja and kept Bane and JJJ, because I don't believe in Ja's reliability healthwise, not in the short or long-term equally, nor do I believe in Ja's maturity as a leader.

Yes, I think Ja is a better #1 than Sengun is, but I think long-term, Bane/JJJ/Sengun+ (Sengun+ being what, hypothetically, Houston would trade) > Ja/Bane/JJJ for the reasons I mentioned.

I hear that thanks for breaking it down. Des is not on the same level as Ja or Jaren. Ja’s ability to lift his teammates is in a different stratosphere with playmaking than Des but the injury concerns are valid we are frustrated with the constant injuries.

Ja/Des were a Dame/CJ level backcourt though dynamic on offense very limited defensively as opposed to Ja/KCP or Dame/Wesley Matthews. We look to Wells and Coward being our longterm wings and have a potentially lottery pick next year in Suns pick that will lift our longterm outlook even further.

It is fair to have concerns of Ja/Jaren centric team but those two players have been the catalyst of much of our success in this era and fans are confident in these two leading us.

[PistolPeteJR]

Unless you believe Bane who was our third best player was our best player how would trading him make you confused about direction. You stated you don’t believe in Ja as #1 then you should be acknowledging that a retool makes sense for a team that had reached much of its ceiling with the Ja/Bane/Jaren.

Getting back to a defensive identity is important for the Grizz as the city of Memphis identifies better with defensive toughness.

Ja is a better number 1 than Sengun and a better player overall considering ability to score and ability to make others better.

Okay, let me explain.

In the first place, I think Bane was your 3rd best player, yes, but I also think he was your most well-rounded player and scorer due to his shooting. His ability to create for himself was very valuable for your team, but he's a lot more reliable from an availability standpoint and a better shooter than Ja. I think having him next to Ja and JJJ was a great, great fit. That's why I don't understand it. Granted, cap is a thing, but if they're looking to win, KCP in exchange for him ain't it.

What I think they should have done is moved Ja and kept Bane and JJJ, because I don't believe in Ja's reliability healthwise, not in the short or long-term equally, nor do I believe in Ja's maturity as a leader.

Yes, I think Ja is a better #1 than Sengun is, but I think long-term, Bane/JJJ/Sengun+ (Sengun+ being what, hypothetically, Houston would trade) > Ja/Bane/JJJ for the reasons I mentioned.

I hear that thanks for breaking it down. Des is not on the same level as Ja or Jaren. Ja’s ability to lift his teammates is in a different stratosphere with playmaking than Des but the injury concerns are valid we are frustrated with the constant injuries.

Ja/Des were a Dame/CJ level backcourt though dynamic on offense very limited defensively as opposed to Ja/KCP or Dame/Wesley Matthews. We look to Wells and Coward being our longterm wings and have a potentially lottery pick next year in Suns pick that will lift our longterm outlook even further.

It is fair to have concerns of Ja/Jaren centric team but those two players have been the catalyst of much of our success in this era and fans are confident in these two leading us.

KCP's not the defender he was from 2020-2023 anymore, so I'd temper the expectations there unless he has some kind of resurgence. The odds aren't with him though.

As for Ja elevating his teammates, his speed and ability to get in the paint and draw help was definitely a big part of that offense. What I don't understand though is when he's been out, they're still an excellent team, as far as team success and the stats show, particularly in 2024. I haven't seen an explanation to it yet and frankly don't watch the Grizz much to have my own take on it. Can you shed some light on it by any chance?

[esvl]

For the reason I mentioned above: Ja's overrated in my books. I don't have any confidence in him being a player I can win a championship with as my #1 option.

You are misrepresenting your subjective fears as objective. In reality, Ja is a great young franchise superstar, phenomenal talent, character, and leader.

So what you're saying is you're the measuring stick for objectivity, and anyone who differs from your opinion is subjective. Got it.

You're entitled to your take as everyone else is. I shared mine in this discussion thread. We can agree to disagree.

Good day.

Your view materially deviates from the reality, so I pointed it out to help you deal with your confusion. You are welcome.

[QMemphis]

Okay, let me explain.

In the first place, I think Bane was your 3rd best player, yes, but I also think he was your most well-rounded player and scorer due to his shooting. His ability to create for himself was very valuable for your team, but he's a lot more reliable from an availability standpoint and a better shooter than Ja. I think having him next to Ja and JJJ was a great, great fit. That's why I don't understand it. Granted, cap is a thing, but if they're looking to win, KCP in exchange for him ain't it.

What I think they should have done is moved Ja and kept Bane and JJJ, because I don't believe in Ja's reliability healthwise, not in the short or long-term equally, nor do I believe in Ja's maturity as a leader.

Yes, I think Ja is a better #1 than Sengun is, but I think long-term, Bane/JJJ/Sengun+ (Sengun+ being what, hypothetically, Houston would trade) > Ja/Bane/JJJ for the reasons I mentioned.

I hear that thanks for breaking it down. Des is not on the same level as Ja or Jaren. Ja’s ability to lift his teammates is in a different stratosphere with playmaking than Des but the injury concerns are valid we are frustrated with the constant injuries.

Ja/Des were a Dame/CJ level backcourt though dynamic on offense very limited defensively as opposed to Ja/KCP or Dame/Wesley Matthews. We look to Wells and Coward being our longterm wings and have a potentially lottery pick next year in Suns pick that will lift our longterm outlook even further.

It is fair to have concerns of Ja/Jaren centric team but those two players have been the catalyst of much of our success in this era and fans are confident in these two leading us.

KCP's not the defender he was from 2020-2023 anymore, so I'd temper the expectations there unless he has some kind of resurgence. The odds aren't with him though.

As for Ja elevating his teammates, his speed and ability to get in the paint and draw help was definitely a big part of that offense. What I don't understand though is when he's been out, they're still an excellent team, as far as team success and the stats show, particularly in 2024. I haven't seen an explanation to it yet and frankly don't watch the Grizz much to have my own take on it. Can you shed some light on it by any chance?

Last year it was partly the offensive system but mainly Jaren. First 3/4 of the season he was a top 15 player in the NBA not only carrying our defense to top ten but was our primary offensive engine.

Him not making All NBA was due to the slide post ASB when the team just imploded due to front office and coaching staff bickering. Jaren was the favorite to win DPOY after Wemby went down initially. So mixture of pace steady offensive nights by Des and All NBA Jaren lead of us mainly in 2024. We literally started two rookies 80% of the season lol.

[esvl]

Okay, let me explain.

In the first place, I think Bane was your 3rd best player, yes, but I also think he was your most well-rounded player and scorer due to his shooting. His ability to create for himself was very valuable for your team, but he's a lot more reliable from an availability standpoint and a better shooter than Ja. I think having him next to Ja and JJJ was a great, great fit. That's why I don't understand it. Granted, cap is a thing, but if they're looking to win, KCP in exchange for him ain't it.

What I think they should have done is moved Ja and kept Bane and JJJ, because I don't believe in Ja's reliability healthwise, not in the short or long-term equally, nor do I believe in Ja's maturity as a leader.

Yes, I think Ja is a better #1 than Sengun is, but I think long-term, Bane/JJJ/Sengun+ (Sengun+ being what, hypothetically, Houston would trade) > Ja/Bane/JJJ for the reasons I mentioned.

I hear that thanks for breaking it down. Des is not on the same level as Ja or Jaren. Ja’s ability to lift his teammates is in a different stratosphere with playmaking than Des but the injury concerns are valid we are frustrated with the constant injuries.

Ja/Des were a Dame/CJ level backcourt though dynamic on offense very limited defensively as opposed to Ja/KCP or Dame/Wesley Matthews. We look to Wells and Coward being our longterm wings and have a potentially lottery pick next year in Suns pick that will lift our longterm outlook even further.

It is fair to have concerns of Ja/Jaren centric team but those two players have been the catalyst of much of our success in this era and fans are confident in these two leading us.

KCP's not the defender he was from 2020-2023 anymore, so I'd temper the expectations there unless he has some kind of resurgence. The odds aren't with him though.

As for Ja elevating his teammates, his speed and ability to get in the paint and draw help was definitely a big part of that offense. What I don't understand though is when he's been out, they're still an excellent team, as far as team success and the stats show, particularly in 2024. I haven't seen an explanation to it yet and frankly don't watch the Grizz much to have my own take on it. Can you shed some light on it by any chance?

The Grizzlies with Ja and without him have never been the same level teams. You didn’t follow the Grizzlies closely. With Ja or JJJ the team won close to 60% games. Bane didn’t make that impact and got traded.

[daoneandonly]

Don't see Houston doing this. They have a very promising thing going shouldn't add someone as volatile as Ja to that