Is a Mathruin for Giddey swap DOA?

[Praetor]

I've lost the plot on how the cap works these days, and it's a division trade for young guys, but it seems like both Mathurin and Giddey are guys who don't fit or aren't really desired by their team. I can't speak for Chicago, other than trading Giddey for a legit young SG with playoff experience frees White up to have the ball more and kicks the can down the road a year with Mathurin.

For Indiana, it looks like trouble because Giddey wants the ball. However, Haliburton is willing to let others initiate the offense knowing it will come back to him. Pairing Giddey with Nembhard this year, and then having all 3 next year would mean you could always have 2 playmaking ballhandlers in at all times.

[jbk1234]

The Pacers would have to send out more money.

[meekrab]

The Bulls are just playing hardball with Giddey, they don't not want him.

[Scoot McGroot]

For Indiana, it looks like trouble because Giddey wants the ball. However, Haliburton is willing to let others initiate the offense knowing it will come back to him. Pairing Giddey with Nembhard this year, and then having all 3 next year would mean you could always have 2 playmaking ballhandlers in at all times.

4. And McConnell.

I think center needs to be the priority long term before getting a 4th guy for the same role, and at good money. If Giddey would demand that $30m annually, Indy would have to include someone else like TJ or Nesmith to make the money work, and Indy would still have trouble next year keeping Giddey on the books, as the team would be at the 1st apron, and well over the tax, as is?

[One_and_Done]

Why would the Pacers want Giddey tho? The whole issue is he wants upper tier starter money, and he's actually a bench player on a contender.

[Praetor]

For Indiana, it looks like trouble because Giddey wants the ball. However, Haliburton is willing to let others initiate the offense knowing it will come back to him. Pairing Giddey with Nembhard this year, and then having all 3 next year would mean you could always have 2 playmaking ballhandlers in at all times.

4. And McConnell.

I think center needs to be the priority long term before getting a 4th guy for the same role, and at good money. If Giddey would demand that $30m annually, Indy would have to include someone else like TJ or Nesmith to make the money work, and Indy would still have trouble next year keeping Giddey on the books, as the team would be at the 1st apron, and well over the tax, as is?

My thinking from the Pacers end would be to swap them before either is signed to big money. Then you send out guys like Nesmith or TJ for the Center you're wanting. I'm thinking like a contender that doesn't mind being in the apron to get Haliburton a title. I understand that we are living in the Herb Simon "nice little team" world, but getting to a Game 7 against a generationally talented team, to me, means it's time to push all your chips in for 27 and 28.

[Praetor]

Why would the Pacers want Giddey tho? The whole issue is he wants upper tier starter money, and he's actually a bench player on a contender.

I'm probably in the minority, but the way he closed out the season, and the improvements he made in his shooting and defense combined with his age, indicates that he has the ability to play and guard 1-3 as a starter on a contender. I love Aaron Nesmith, but Giddey would be a big upgrade on offense (as long as the shooting isn't a fluke) passing, and rebounding, and a smaller (but still big) downgrade on defense. As long as the team is keeping Nembhard, we already have a high level point of attack defender, and most teams (OKC excluded) don't have two players that need excellent point of attack defenders at the 1-3.

In the immediate term, Giddey would allow the Pacers to play the two ballhandler pace and space style they played with Haliburton while he recovers. In the long term, it makes that style of play even more terrifying when 1-4 can all push in transition, make passes, and shoot. Nesmith is a better shooter than given credit for, but isn't a guy you currently want handling the ball, and is an unremarkable passer.

[ChettheJet]

Oh the poor Pacers it's their league and we're just pawns

I don't think it's good for the Bulls. Yeah talent wise Mathurin is something to consider. But the Bulls give up their PG with no next in line

Coby White was put at PG early in his career, now he's shown he is a SG/Combo guy who isn't a starting PG
Tre Jones is an energy, spark plug off the bench, probably too small to start
Ayo Dosunmu would seriously have to step up his decision/play making game

and that's all they'd have while needing White, Maturin and Huerter to be SGs and that's at least one too many for 48 minutes

[Scoot McGroot]

For Indiana, it looks like trouble because Giddey wants the ball. However, Haliburton is willing to let others initiate the offense knowing it will come back to him. Pairing Giddey with Nembhard this year, and then having all 3 next year would mean you could always have 2 playmaking ballhandlers in at all times.

4. And McConnell.

I think center needs to be the priority long term before getting a 4th guy for the same role, and at good money. If Giddey would demand that $30m annually, Indy would have to include someone else like TJ or Nesmith to make the money work, and Indy would still have trouble next year keeping Giddey on the books, as the team would be at the 1st apron, and well over the tax, as is?

My thinking from the Pacers end would be to swap them before either is signed to big money.

It’s absolutely not possible. You can’t swap for Giddey without him having signed a big new deal. It’s not like you can take him and just continue his cheap rookie contract. In fact, you’re just getting a lot more expensive a year earlier? And for a guy you probably don’t need in a year? But Giddey is a free agent, so he needs a new contract, and he wants want at $30m annually.

Then you send out guys like Nesmith or TJ for the Center you're wanting. I'm thinking like a contender that doesn't mind being in the apron to get Haliburton a title. I understand that we are living in the Herb Simon "nice little team" world, but getting to a Game 7 against a generationally talented team, to me, means it's time to push all your chips in for 27 and 28.

I think you’re mostly just thinking like someone who doesn’t understand contracts or how trades legally work? Which is absolutely fair, and fine. But those things matter and impact how things can legally happen.

I don’t think Giddey helps this team once Haliburton is healthy. I don’t think he helps them win games they aren’t already winning. Especially if you’re dealing off Nesmith, McConnell, and Mathurin in the process.

[Wizop]

Pacers 2026 backcourt will be Haliburton and Nesmith. Both Giddey and Mathurin are looking for more money than a second string wing is worth. Now I'm not saying that they aren't good enough to start. They are. But not in Indy.

[flow]

Pacers 2026 backcourt will be Haliburton and Nesmith. Both Giddey and Mathurin are looking for more money than a second string wing is worth. Now I'm not saying that they aren't good enough to start. They are. But not in Indy.

Mathurin will be starting this season. If he takes that opportunity and explodes (which would not shock me), then Indy will have some tough decisions to make next off-season.

[Wizop]

Mathurin will be starting this season. If he takes that opportunity and explodes (which would not shock me), then Indy will have some tough decisions to make next off-season.

if not sooner at this season's deadline.

[Praetor]

4. And McConnell.

I think center needs to be the priority long term before getting a 4th guy for the same role, and at good money. If Giddey would demand that $30m annually, Indy would have to include someone else like TJ or Nesmith to make the money work, and Indy would still have trouble next year keeping Giddey on the books, as the team would be at the 1st apron, and well over the tax, as is?

My thinking from the Pacers end would be to swap them before either is signed to big money.

It’s absolutely not possible. You can’t swap for Giddey without him having signed a big new deal. It’s not like you can take him and just continue his cheap rookie contract. In fact, you’re just getting a lot more expensive a year earlier? And for a guy you probably don’t need in a year? But Giddey is a free agent, so he needs a new contract, and he wants want at $30m annually.

Then you send out guys like Nesmith or TJ for the Center you're wanting. I'm thinking like a contender that doesn't mind being in the apron to get Haliburton a title. I understand that we are living in the Herb Simon "nice little team" world, but getting to a Game 7 against a generationally talented team, to me, means it's time to push all your chips in for 27 and 28.

I think you’re mostly just thinking like someone who doesn’t understand contracts or how trades legally work? Which is absolutely fair, and fine. But those things matter and impact how things can legally happen.

I don’t think Giddey helps this team once Haliburton is healthy. I don’t think he helps them win games they aren’t already winning. Especially if you’re dealing off Nesmith, McConnell, and Mathurin in the process.

Easy on the condescension. I stopped following the CBA closely in about 2010. Back then, Giddey could have signed a QO and been traded. I think I misunderstood that Giddey would never sign another QO, and even if he were to take a "prove it" deal, it would still be around $20m, in which case the salaries wouldn't work.

But I still think Giddey is a better fit on this team than Mathurin. Hearing from the Bulls fans helps in that they need him. Which brings us back to a tale as old as time, that the Bulls are just cheap.

[Scoot McGroot]

My thinking from the Pacers end would be to swap them before either is signed to big money.

It’s absolutely not possible. You can’t swap for Giddey without him having signed a big new deal. It’s not like you can take him and just continue his cheap rookie contract. In fact, you’re just getting a lot more expensive a year earlier? And for a guy you probably don’t need in a year? But Giddey is a free agent, so he needs a new contract, and he wants want at $30m annually.

Then you send out guys like Nesmith or TJ for the Center you're wanting. I'm thinking like a contender that doesn't mind being in the apron to get Haliburton a title. I understand that we are living in the Herb Simon "nice little team" world, but getting to a Game 7 against a generationally talented team, to me, means it's time to push all your chips in for 27 and 28.

I think you’re mostly just thinking like someone who doesn’t understand contracts or how trades legally work? Which is absolutely fair, and fine. But those things matter and impact how things can legally happen.

I don’t think Giddey helps this team once Haliburton is healthy. I don’t think he helps them win games they aren’t already winning. Especially if you’re dealing off Nesmith, McConnell, and Mathurin in the process.

Easy on the condescension. I stopped following the CBA closely in about 2010.

To be clear, it’s not condescension. It’s absolutely true that we (me, especially) are absolute weirdo’s for being so in depth into the CBA. The freedom to just look at on court play/production and never have to worry about incentives, or contracts, or salary matching or aprons would be freeing.

It absolutely was not intended as condescension and I’m sorry if it came off that way. Definitely not intended.

Back then, Giddey could have signed a QO and been traded.

He could not have, and still cannot. A player cannot be signed and traded on a qualifying offer, and if he signs a qualifying offer and is later traded (he would have the rights to veto any trade), the receiving team would have non bird rights, meaning they couldn’t afford to keep him unless they had massive cap space to fit his new contract on the books.

I think I misunderstood that Giddey would never sign another QO, and even if he were to take a "prove it" deal, it would still be around $20m, in which case the salaries wouldn't work.

If he was willing to sign a smaller “prove it deal”, he’d already have re signed in Chicago, I think?

But I still think Giddey is a better fit on this team than Mathurin. Hearing from the Bulls fans helps in that they need him. Which brings us back to a tale as old as time, that the Bulls are just cheap.

To be honest, I think neither is an ideal fit on this team? But I’m also a believer in the overall body of Giddey’s work outweighing a smaller sample size of after the all star break?

I think Giddey would help this team more this year with Haliburton out, but after that, I think Indy would have to deal his contract off the books to better balance the roster. Haliburton/Nembhard will always play over him, and a Nesmith is a much better fit next to those two.

[Wizop]

If the site I checked is right, Giddey's QO is 25mm.

EDIT: this is wrong. 25 is the cap hold not the QO

[Scoot McGroot]

If the site I checked is right, Giddey's QO is 25mm.

His qualifying offer is $11.14m. His current cap hold is $25.1m.

[Wizop]

If the site I checked is right, Giddey's QO is 25mm.

His qualifying offer is $11.14m. His current cap hold is $25.1m.

oops. yes, I read the cap hold as being the QO. I'd jump on him for the Pacers at 11 but he's not signing at that price.

[Praetor]

It’s absolutely not possible. You can’t swap for Giddey without him having signed a big new deal. It’s not like you can take him and just continue his cheap rookie contract. In fact, you’re just getting a lot more expensive a year earlier? And for a guy you probably don’t need in a year? But Giddey is a free agent, so he needs a new contract, and he wants want at $30m annually.



I think you’re mostly just thinking like someone who doesn’t understand contracts or how trades legally work? Which is absolutely fair, and fine. But those things matter and impact how things can legally happen.

I don’t think Giddey helps this team once Haliburton is healthy. I don’t think he helps them win games they aren’t already winning. Especially if you’re dealing off Nesmith, McConnell, and Mathurin in the process.

Easy on the condescension. I stopped following the CBA closely in about 2010.

To be clear, it’s not condescension. It’s absolutely true that we (me, especially) are absolute weirdo’s for being so in depth into the CBA. The freedom to just look at on court play/production and never have to worry about incentives, or contracts, or salary matching or aprons would be freeing.

It absolutely was not intended as condescension and I’m sorry if it came off that way. Definitely not intended.

Back then, Giddey could have signed a QO and been traded.

He could not have, and still cannot. A player cannot be signed and traded on a qualifying offer, and if he signs a qualifying offer and is later traded (he would have the rights to veto any trade), the receiving team would have non bird rights, meaning they couldn’t afford to keep him unless they had massive cap space to fit his new contract on the books.

I think I misunderstood that Giddey would never sign another QO, and even if he were to take a "prove it" deal, it would still be around $20m, in which case the salaries wouldn't work.

If he was willing to sign a smaller “prove it deal”, he’d already have re signed in Chicago, I think?

But I still think Giddey is a better fit on this team than Mathurin. Hearing from the Bulls fans helps in that they need him. Which brings us back to a tale as old as time, that the Bulls are just cheap.

To be honest, I think neither is an ideal fit on this team? But I’m also a believer in the overall body of Giddey’s work outweighing a smaller sample size of after the all star break?

I think Giddey would help this team more this year with Haliburton out, but after that, I think Indy would have to deal his contract off the books to better balance the roster. Haliburton/Nembhard will always play over him, and a Nesmith is a much better fit next to those two.

Fair enough. The mistake I made is I assumed it was like Mathurin in that he had a year left at that QO and could be dealt at that price. I should have known that he was drafted a year earlier.

Funny enough, I know both you and Wiz from the PD days. Back then I knew every wrinkle of the CBA. I also had no kids! It would also help if they would quit messing with it every couple years.

For my part, I think Giddey is perfect in Rick's system. Watching his interview with Caitlyn Cooper talking about random basketball and making quick decisions with the ball shows that we MUST bring in players who can make quick decisions with the ball. I think Giddey is clearly that kind of player. I also think that's why Mathurin and Walker have struggled here. Walker has the court vision to play in this system, but he still spends too long processing. I think it's also why Furphy has a future with the team.

[Wizop]

Funny enough, I know both you and Wiz from the PD days.

No PD for me. Perhaps you remember the list serve Scott Orr ran out of IUPUI. I had tickets next to the Orrs for years. Before that there was the CompuServe Sports Forum. I followed Florien here from there.

[Scoot McGroot]

Easy on the condescension. I stopped following the CBA closely in about 2010.

To be clear, it’s not condescension. It’s absolutely true that we (me, especially) are absolute weirdo’s for being so in depth into the CBA. The freedom to just look at on court play/production and never have to worry about incentives, or contracts, or salary matching or aprons would be freeing.

It absolutely was not intended as condescension and I’m sorry if it came off that way. Definitely not intended.

Back then, Giddey could have signed a QO and been traded.

He could not have, and still cannot. A player cannot be signed and traded on a qualifying offer, and if he signs a qualifying offer and is later traded (he would have the rights to veto any trade), the receiving team would have non bird rights, meaning they couldn’t afford to keep him unless they had massive cap space to fit his new contract on the books.

I think I misunderstood that Giddey would never sign another QO, and even if he were to take a "prove it" deal, it would still be around $20m, in which case the salaries wouldn't work.

If he was willing to sign a smaller “prove it deal”, he’d already have re signed in Chicago, I think?

But I still think Giddey is a better fit on this team than Mathurin. Hearing from the Bulls fans helps in that they need him. Which brings us back to a tale as old as time, that the Bulls are just cheap.

To be honest, I think neither is an ideal fit on this team? But I’m also a believer in the overall body of Giddey’s work outweighing a smaller sample size of after the all star break?

I think Giddey would help this team more this year with Haliburton out, but after that, I think Indy would have to deal his contract off the books to better balance the roster. Haliburton/Nembhard will always play over him, and a Nesmith is a much better fit next to those two.

Fair enough. The mistake I made is I assumed it was like Mathurin in that he had a year left at that QO and could be dealt at that price. I should have known that he was drafted a year earlier.

No worries. The QO so rarely ever matters. It’s only one guy or so every couple years to ever sign it.

Funny enough, I know both you and Wiz from the PD days. Back then I knew every wrinkle of the CBA. I also had no kids! It would also help if they would quit messing with it every couple years.

They do! And to be honest, I had an account on PD years and years ago, but I don’t know that I ever posted 5 or 10 times there? I tried here and there when the ESPN forums were shut down, and PD had so many tech issues and reboots and database transfers and such that I got turned off quickly and just stayed here.

For my part, I think Giddey is perfect in Rick's system. Watching his interview with Caitlyn Cooper talking about random basketball and making quick decisions with the ball shows that we MUST bring in players who can make quick decisions with the ball. I think Giddey is clearly that kind of player. I also think that's why Mathurin and Walker have struggled here. Walker has the court vision to play in this system, but he still spends too long processing. I think it's also why Furphy has a future with the team.

I totally get the quick decision making, but I also think the defense and shooting are probably fools gold? So I think he quickly turns into a really awesome and overly expensive 4th guy to process as a PG at super high speeds (Hali, Nembhard, and McConnell were recently shown as 3 of the quickest decision makers in the league). An absolute luxury that would make it nigh impossible to build out the rest of the roster, imo.

My hope is that Walker continues to develop in that regard. The defense came through late last year, and he’s still super young. I’m interested to see what he can do here in his full rookie contract, as I think there’s a chance he could play some 3, 4, and even 5 as a point forward/center and a strong big wing defender, which we’ve sorely lacked for years. Mathurin, to me, can be moved. But we have to be smart about the cap going forward, even if we hope to pay the tax and enter the apron. We just can’t overload completely at the 1.