lal,min,por

[shrink]

Trust me, trying to reason with shrink is like talking to a wall. He won't listen to anyone but himself.

OK - despite the fact that you guys simply refuse to answer my questions, or respond to my facts with more than a "I've no evidence, but trust me" let me demonstrate more courtesy to you:

Sure, we can spend the MLE every year, but if there isn't a fit for the team, then why bother?

Let's take your silly example and suppose that there isn't a single player available for the full MLE that will help Portland in even a single game. Remember, your contention is that money's meaningless for Paul Allen.

Even if that situation was true, he could simply still use the MLE, and get back some player that a different NBA team could use. He'd then just trade him for a player that would be helpful - regardless of the cost. Moreover, he can use this $5.5 mil to go get a player worth around $7 mil, because of the 125% cap matching. And more money in his cap gives him more flexibility for bigger and bigger trades. Now, unless we're supposed to now believe there's no one in the NBA at $7 mil or less that would fit, then I think your argument wasn't well thought out.

An owner to whom money is not an issue -- as you guys contend -- would do things like this, not act so similiarly to almost every other owner in the league.

[cucad8]

-= original quote snipped =-



Cucad, stop for five minutes and digest what I posted.

I'm on my second roll of Tumms trying to digest what you posted.

[shrink]

I'm not trying to insult POR posters, and certainly not the team that's been so successfully rebuilt. But I really think you guys are in a serious groupthink situation here. I think you rally around each other and try to defend each other, rather than defend your position with evidence.

An owner who truly didn't care about money would be acting in a completely different manner than what you've seen from Allen, or virtually any other of the rich owners in the league.

Agree?

If you are right, provide some evidence to support Allen's highly unique situation by demonstrating past moves that are inconsistent with the majority of owners out there. Yes, Paul Allen is richer than the rest, but every one of them is rich enough to ignore the lux with ease. I have yet to see a shred of evidence in Paul Allen's actions that demonstrate he is the only owner unconstrained by the lux.

[4ho5ive]

Back to the original topic in here. Minnesota probably does this. They lose Craig which hurts the fans, but he just isnt the type of fit we need. Along with Buckners contract and Doleac's expiring for another 1st and a bigger EXP.

Then again we might need Buck's contract for 09 cap.

[cucad8]

You've given one situation, which is a stupid way to build a team as evidence he cares about money. I cited spending money on draft picks, 3 million dollars a piece for 2 picks in the 20s. Where were all of the other owners doing it? I cited his taking on the extra year of a contract in Raef to get young talent, and try to get committed to winning, as opposed to spending. There is a difference between spending just to spend, and being stupid about it, which is what you suggested, and being WILLING to spend, in the right situations, which all Portland fans are suggesting. Money isn't an object in the fact that if it is determined that Roy, Oden, and Aldridge are all going to lead us to a championship or a dynasty, and they all want the max amount of money, then the money doesn't matter. If Stephon Marbury wants a max deal, and we happened to have the space, we aren't going to use it just to use it. Does that make sense to you? Not spending to spend, but not caring HOW much is spent if it is spent wisely?

[shrink]

Let me give you another example: An owner who doesn't care about money doesn't go and buy out Steve Francis!

Once you buy him out, you can't trade him for someone else, and it forces your salary down. A rich owner would pay Steve's contract, keep the roster spot, and trade Francis' expiring for a player with more production but a longer contract. That expiring could be a key piece if Allen was willing to pay $21 mil to bring Jermaine O'Neal back, or bring in an expensive Michael Redd.

[shrink]

I will try to address your post:

You've given one situation, which is a stupid way to build a team as evidence he cares about money. I cited spending money on draft picks, 3 million dollars a piece for 2 picks in the 20s. Where were all of the other owners doing it?

LOL -- he's not the first one to do that. But you realize too you're talking about spending $3 mil, not acquiring $60 mil contracts, right?

I cited his taking on the extra year of a contract in Raef to get young talent, and try to get committed to winning, as opposed to spending.

Come on .. you traded Ratliff's big deal and a young Telfair for LaFrentz's big deal and a young pick. This isn't really unique, but I suppose it did add one year of salary.

There is a difference between spending just to spend, and being stupid about it, which is what you suggested, and being WILLING to spend, in the right situations, which all Portland fans are suggesting.

Actually, that's YOUR idea, and words you put in my mouth to argue with. That's part of the reason I asked you to slow down, and pay attention.

Money isn't an object in the fact that if it is determined that Roy, Oden, and Aldridge are all going to lead us to a championship or a dynasty, and they all want the max amount of money, then the money doesn't matter.

Paul Allen is the only owner that acquires cheap draft picks because he's the only one that will pay them in the future? Did PA buy the lottery, because he knew only he would pay Oden maxx money down the road?

If Stephon Marbury wants a max deal, and we happened to have the space, we aren't going to use it just to use it. Does that make sense to you? Not spending to spend, but not caring HOW much is spent if it is spent wisely?

Again, you're forgetting your argument. If Marbury would help you win one more game than your current crew, and Paul Allen truly doesn't care about money, then your argument would say that he would. MY argument is that he tries to spend money wisely, JUST LIKE EVERY OWNER IN THE NBA, which is why he has ACTED like every owner in the nba.

[SoHo]

Let me give you another example: An owner who doesn't care about money doesn't go and buy out Steve Francis!

That's just plain silly. Buying out Francis had nothing to do with money. We didn't buy him out to save money, we bought him out to keep his attitude away from our young team. Saving money was a little plus on the side.

You clearly don't understand Portland's history or current situation. Stop pretending that you do.

For the record this trade is terrible. Frye isn't a person we need to trade for salary purposes. Furthermore if we want to clear roster spots trading Frye (who is a legit talent) instead of cutting someone like McRoberts or Green doesn't make sense. The only way we consider this is if the 31st pick is better than Frye, and unfortunately I don't see that happening, besides Frye was picked up to sit alongside Oden and space the floor, we'll wait and see how that goes before trading him for junk like this.

[Fitz303]

OK Shrink here it goes:

01/02 - $78,130,225
02/03 - $91,000,860
03/04 - $103,573,670

Paul Allen tried very hard to get his championship in the early part of this decade. They got so close in 99-00, and he started to throw more and more money into the team each year to try and get it. Finally, after the 03/04 season, he realized that no matter how much money he was throwing into the team, the players that he had on that team and the value that he was getting back from pawning many of them off (due to the JailBlazers rep.), just wasnt enough to be a contender anymore. He decided that it was time to cut his losses, cut payroll, start fresh, and build from the bottom up. He said he would not shell out that kind of money for a losing team, but make no mistake, when the team is on the rise like it is now, paul allen spending money is no problem.

Ric Bucher was on the radio out here not too long ago and told a story that he said he found pretty amusing. He said that he was reporting on draft day this last year that "It looked like the Suns have dipped into Paul Allens Wallet and grabbed another 3 Million yet again for their 1st rd pick this year." Well Paul Allen, who was in the war room, happened to be watching that on the TV as he was pacing throughout the room and stopped in his tracks. He grabbed his wallet from his back pocket, looked at it, patted it, and said "ouch, that one hurt".. Paul Allen is not your typical Franchise owner. To him, the Blazers and the Seahawks are his hobbies. So to finish off this rant, theres no reason that the Blazers would trade Frye for an expiring and some 2nd rd pick (which we already have far too many of), just to save some money

[shrink]

Let me give you another example: An owner who doesn't care about money doesn't go and buy out Steve Francis!

That's just plain silly. Buying out Francis had nothing to do with money. We didn't buy him out to save money, we bought him out to keep his attitude away from our young team. Saving money was a little plus on the side.

Why assume he has to be with the team? If money is no object, pay him to stay in his house, and reel him out when its time to trade him as an expiring.

You're still not thinking like money is no object. - you're claim of Paul

[shrink]

Ric Bucher was on the radio out here not too long ago and told a story that he said he found pretty amusing. He said that he was reporting on draft day this last year that "It looked like the Suns have dipped into Paul Allens Wallet and grabbed another 3 Million yet again for their 1st rd pick this year." Well Paul Allen, who was in the war room, happened to be watching that on the TV as he was pacing throughout the room and stopped in his tracks. He grabbed his wallet from his back pocket, looked at it, patted it, and said "ouch, that one hurt".. Paul Allen is not your typical Franchise owner. To him, the Blazers and the Seahawks are his hobbies. So to finish off this rant, theres no reason that the Blazers would trade Frye for an expiring and some 2nd rd pick (which we already have far too many of), just to save some money

GREAT story! Thanks for posting that!

I also want to remind people that I didn't create this trade, or even endorse it. As I said, I can't tell who you guys value and who you don't. My issue was roster crowding, and if you have to make some cuts, grabbing MIN's probable Top 2 picks in the second round are some of the most valuable things to get back, because they don't hurt your roster size. The paragraph people took issue with was this:

In addition, POR is over the lux, so any expirings save them double. While Portland fans seem to think their owner is uniquely immune to overpaying, I think the actual head office might not mind trading some of their extra youth to save some money, open a roster space to bring over Rudy, and get some of the best stashable picks for the future. Its a lot better than just cutting a player. I don't know if its Frye through.

[shrink]

Fitz has made the best attempt at an argument here. I will point out though that there wasn't even a luxury tax until 02-03. It may be a coincidence, but after the 03-04 season is when Paul Allen decided to start cutting salaries.

It would be interesting for me to see the finances back then. Since the NBA has guaranteed contracts, its tough to know how long it takes to jump back down under the lux and get out of those deals. I will say though that I still don't think an owner who we're supposed to believe doesn't care about money would "cut his losses" or "cut payroll" or "build from the bottom up."

I remember the jailblazer days with some sadness. I don't have any forgiveness for the priviliged players that couldn't behave like adults, but I remember fondly uncle cliffy et al and how I appreciated that a small market NBA team like POR was competing with CHI and LA. Many of you guys think I hate the Blazers, and that's pretty far from the truth. I simply do not believe that Paul Allen ignores the lux.