I still know what you will do this offseason-New York Knicks

Moderators: loserX, pacers33granger, Texas Chuck, HartfordWhalers, Mamba4Goat, Andre Roberstan, Trader_Joe

Knickfan1982
Sixth Man
Posts: 1,775
And1: 352
Joined: Mar 19, 2016
       

I still know what you will do this offseason-New York Knicks 

Post#1 » by Knickfan1982 » Sat May 23, 2020 5:40 pm

Blockbusterish deal:


The Knicks trade: Kevin Knox, Julius Randle, Dennis Smith Jr, #6 pick, #27 pick, #38 pick

Receive: Terry Rozier, Buddy Heild, #12 pick

Sacramento Kings trade: Buddy Hield, #12 pick
Receive: Kevin Knox, #6 pick, #27 pick

Charlotte Hornets trade: Terry Rozier,
Receive: Julius Randle, Dennis Smith Jr, #38 pick

Rational:

For the Hornets
, they bank on Graham being the real deal so they deal from a position of strength (point guard) to upgrade a position of weakness (their front court). They take a flier on Dennis Smith Jr and get their early second round pick back.

For the Kings
: Their fans will probably hate this but as the years go forward this team becomes more and more expensive in a highly competitive conference. This deal allows them to free up both short term and long term money while moving up 6 spots in the lottery and adding a late first rounder. A combination of the late first rounder plus their 2 early seconds should give them sufficient ammunition to jump up to the early 20’s if they see a prospect they really like start to fall.

For the Knicks: Lets just get something out the way. The primary factor of how much the Knicks improve as a team is the development of RJ Barrett. If he becomes the home grown star we drafted him to be then this team will improve by leaps and bounds. Therefore the point of this deal is not so much to make the Knicks better in and of itself but to help Barrett become a more effective force. Terry Rozier, while not a superstar, is a competent and well rounded player. He can also shoot pretty well. Buddy Hield is one of the best shooters in the league. Both guys will add much needed spacing to our offense so that Barrett will have more room to play. At the same time both guys are reasonably young and have some room to grow as players.

Post script on the deal: Original deal involved Nicolas Batum instead of Rozier with the Knicks getting Batum and the #8, the Kings getting the #6 and the Hornets getting #12. I think in some ways that was a better deal overall but it would have left the Knicks with a glaring hole at point guard and fewer resources to improve it.

Draft:
#12 pick select Precious Achiuwa PF. Love his versatility and upside.

#36: Tyler Bey SF/PF= An upside play. He seems like he can be a good defender now but has a good stroke for shooting as well. The numbers just don't seem to bear it out. Hoping with some coaching he can put things together and become another second round steal for us.


Free Agent decisions
: Wayne Ellington, Elfrid Payton and Taj Gibson played their roles but I don't see the value of keeping those three guys on the team for the 25 million or so they'd combine to make. Payton didn't seize control of the opportunity as I'd hoped. Gibson is what he is at this point. I think he'd be better served as a depth piece for a contender while we can switch to younger and fresher legs. Wayne Ellington is ok but needs to go before some desperate Knicks coach gives him minutes that should be going to a young player in a desperate attempt to increase our total wins. I decided to guarantee the one we had left with RJ Bullock deal because the team likes his veteran presence and we'd be hard served to find a similar player on a much cheaper deal. In terms of Bobby Portis and his team option. He's young and productive. But....at almost 16 million dollars I just don't see the value there. He makes too much money to justify his presence on the team so I think as constructed his team option should be turned down. Allonzo Trier is a guy a like. Instant offense off the bench but never really given enough playing time because our player development sucks. But on my team he doesn't really have a role so I wouldn't make him the qualifying offer. I would like to make a qualifying offer on Daymean Dotson though. He's got solid role player potential. My plan would be to resign him to a 3 year deal starting at 5 million dollars with annual raises and a player option for the 3rd year. I think he'll have more interest league wide but I am betting that the small sample size (because we suck at player development) plus his less than ideal size for a 2 will mitigate bidding somewhat.

As things stand our team needs depth in the front court and we have a decent amount of money to spend. So I decided to sign Nerlins Noel to a 2 year 16 million dollar deal with the second year being partially guaranteed. He's still young enough to grow into more but most importantly he can provide a shot blocking backup big man. I will also sign Kyle O'Quinn to a one year 3 million dollar deal. I liked him a lot when he was with the Knicks and think he would be an excellent backup 4/5 for us.

Depth Chart
Center-Mitchell Robinson, Nerlins Noel.
Power Forward - Precious Achiuwa, Kyle O’Quinn, Kenny Wooten
Small Forward- RJ Barrett, Ignas Brazdeikis
Point Guard-Terry Rozier, Frank Niklitina
Shooting Guard Buddy Hield, Damyean Dotson, RJ Bullock
User avatar
KEMBAtheMETEOR
RealGM
Posts: 36,718
And1: 6,592
Joined: Feb 05, 2012
Location: The 704
   

Re: I still know what you will do this offseason-New York Knicks 

Post#2 » by KEMBAtheMETEOR » Sat May 23, 2020 6:47 pm

yes from Charlotte.

This looks bad for SAC though. If moving up to 6 would help this along, I'd honestly do this deal even without that pick swap, and just add 27 going our way.
formerly BizGilwalker
User avatar
Texas Chuck
Senior Mod - Mavericks and NBA TnT Forum
Senior Mod - Mavericks and NBA TnT Forum
Posts: 51,116
And1: 37,314
Joined: May 19, 2012
         

Re: I still know what you will do this offseason-New York Knicks 

Post#3 » by Texas Chuck » Sat May 23, 2020 6:54 pm

Yeah this is really rough for the Kings. Difference in 8 and 12 is minimal and none of those players help them at all and eat up roster spots on top of that. Remember the new CBA only the gtd money counts toward salary matching so the Kings would be on the hooks for their total salary. So its just giving Hield away which I just can't see them doing.
FNQ wrote: Once JJ is healed, the Mavs Big 3 are gonna be something..
Knickfan1982
Sixth Man
Posts: 1,775
And1: 352
Joined: Mar 19, 2016
       

Re: I still know what you will do this offseason-New York Knicks 

Post#4 » by Knickfan1982 » Sat May 23, 2020 8:44 pm

Texas Chuck wrote:Yeah this is really rough for the Kings. Difference in 8 and 12 is minimal and none of those players help them at all and eat up roster spots on top of that. Remember the new CBA only the gtd money counts toward salary matching so the Kings would be on the hooks for their total salary. So its just giving Hield away which I just can't see them doing.


I would have never included those guys in the deal as salary ballast if I knew those partially guaranteed deals worked that way in trades so that sucks.

But in any case, I never saw this deal as the Kings giving up Hield for nothing. I saw it as saving a ton of money on a promising player that seems to have fallen out of favor while moving up in the draft and picking up an extra first rounder in the process. Because technically, if the Knicks just bought out Gibson, Payton, Ellington and turned down Portis' deal like I have the Knicks could absorb Hield's full deal.

I'll try and tweek it though.
Knickfan1982
Sixth Man
Posts: 1,775
And1: 352
Joined: Mar 19, 2016
       

Re: I still know what you will do this offseason-New York Knicks 

Post#5 » by Knickfan1982 » Sat May 23, 2020 8:48 pm

KEMBAtheMETEOR wrote:yes from Charlotte.

This looks bad for SAC though. If moving up to 6 would help this along, I'd honestly do this deal even without that pick swap, and just add 27 going our way.


When I heard those rumors I was annoyed because I don't see the difference between Rozier and Randle being worth a first rounder even if its a late one. While Rozier is technically the better player Randle would be as equal an upgrade to their front court as Rozier would be to our backcourt. The best I would do would be to give back the Hornets second rounder this year which I believe we have.
User avatar
Texas Chuck
Senior Mod - Mavericks and NBA TnT Forum
Senior Mod - Mavericks and NBA TnT Forum
Posts: 51,116
And1: 37,314
Joined: May 19, 2012
         

Re: I still know what you will do this offseason-New York Knicks 

Post#6 » by Texas Chuck » Sat May 23, 2020 8:53 pm

Knickfan1982 wrote:
Texas Chuck wrote:Yeah this is really rough for the Kings. Difference in 8 and 12 is minimal and none of those players help them at all and eat up roster spots on top of that. Remember the new CBA only the gtd money counts toward salary matching so the Kings would be on the hooks for their total salary. So its just giving Hield away which I just can't see them doing.


I would have never included those guys in the deal as salary ballast if I knew those partially guaranteed deals worked that way in trades so that sucks.

But in any case, I never saw this deal as the Kings giving up Hield for nothing. I saw it as saving a ton of money on a promising player that seems to have fallen out of favor while moving up in the draft and picking up an extra first rounder in the process. Because technically, if the Knicks just bought out Gibson, Payton, Ellington and turned down Portis' deal like I have the Knicks could absorb Hield's full deal.

I'll try and tweek it though.


The more I look at it, I don't think you are that far off in value--especially in the version where the Kings don't take back the filler players. I don't think Hield is worth much if any more than moving up 4 spots in the lottery, a late 1st, and all that financial flexibility. I just can't see the Kings just punting on him like that. If I were in charge I think it's pretty interesting. I'd pay Bogs, and ease the issue of both convinced they should start and then use that big TPE to bring in another wing.

So I am actually starting to like the concept, but I don't think the Kings are ready to do this.
FNQ wrote: Once JJ is healed, the Mavs Big 3 are gonna be something..
User avatar
FutureKnicksGM
Head Coach
Posts: 6,228
And1: 1,051
Joined: Sep 26, 2005
 

Re: I still know what you will do this offseason-New York Knicks 

Post#7 » by FutureKnicksGM » Sun May 24, 2020 12:41 am

I would hate that for NY, reducing draft assets and cap space to lock in a tread mill team at this stage. You would hope one of LaMelo, Hayes, Haliburton would be available at 6, who project to be better than a lower end combo guard like Rozier, and without the big contract. Hield is a good shooter, but at age 27, doesn’t make sense to give up assets to acquire him as piece to put next to the 19 year old RJ. You could sign a younger guy like Beasley instead, or throw money at Bogdan or Fournier as similar level (and aged) players, while just giving up capspace.
User avatar
Rockazoids
Assistant Coach
Posts: 4,118
And1: 684
Joined: Jun 05, 2008
Location: Cincinnati
     

Re: I still know what you will do this offseason-New York Knicks 

Post#8 » by Rockazoids » Sun May 24, 2020 2:09 am

FutureKnicksGM wrote:I would hate that for NY, reducing draft assets and cap space to lock in a tread mill team at this stage. You would hope one of LaMelo, Hayes, Haliburton would be available at 6, who project to be better than a lower end combo guard like Rozier, and without the big contract. Hield is a good shooter, but at age 27, doesn’t make sense to give up assets to acquire him as piece to put next to the 19 year old RJ. You could sign a younger guy like Beasley instead, or throw money at Bogdan or Fournier as similar level (and aged) players, while just giving up capspace.

Wow I didn't know Heild was that old, & noway I'm trading for Rozier.
KEEP YOUR BUTT @ HOME
Kerrsed wrote:Just thinking of this deal makes my ass hurt!

turk3d wrote: you're about to make me go old rem on you

GoNYK1288 wrote:You better clench your butt cheeks because the GB is about to have at you.
Knickfan1982
Sixth Man
Posts: 1,775
And1: 352
Joined: Mar 19, 2016
       

Re: I still know what you will do this offseason-New York Knicks 

Post#9 » by Knickfan1982 » Sun May 24, 2020 2:56 am

FutureKnicksGM wrote:I would hate that for NY, reducing draft assets and cap space to lock in a tread mill team at this stage. You would hope one of LaMelo, Hayes, Haliburton would be available at 6, who project to be better than a lower end combo guard like Rozier, and without the big contract. Hield is a good shooter, but at age 27, doesn’t make sense to give up assets to acquire him as piece to put next to the 19 year old RJ. You could sign a younger guy like Beasley instead, or throw money at Bogdan or Fournier as similar level (and aged) players, while just giving up capspace.



1. The problem with "throwing money at free agents" is that we've tried that repeatedly. And we've failed. Repeatedly. Money means nothing if you don't have a culture that is attractive to free agents. When the money is similar and one place offers lower income taxes (NY is expensive) and a culture that isn't widely considered poisonous then the Knicks are going to lose out each and every time. Its just not an attractive free agent destination. So I am thinking more big picture here. Make the team less of an embarrassment on the court and hope Dolan can step back and make the atmosphere less poisonous. In maybe 3 or 4 years we become a more attractive destination.

2. The other part of becoming a more attractive destination is by developing a star level guy. RJ Barrett has to be that guy. So get him guys who spread the floor and make it easier for Barrett to develop into that star level guy. For instance, for all Rozier's limitations the guy can shoot. He's a threat from range. Elfrid Payton (the guy whose minutes he'd be taking) was not a threat from range at all. He shot only 1 3pt per game and hit it at a meager 20% clip. Meanwhile, Terry Rozier is a career 37% shooter from long range. That's almost double the percentage despite taking a lot more shots from range.

3. Regarding the draft picks. Yea, they are painful. It took me a while to come to grips with this deal as well but you know what.....with no March Madness and limited opportunities to get these young guys into workouts and combines the draft is going to be even more of a crap shoot than normal. For instance, Tyrese Halliberton was a guy I wanted the Knicks to draft for a while. Up until a month or so ago most mock drafts had him going between 10-13. As much as I liked him the value just didn't match up for our spot in the draft. He would have been a major reach. Now some of those same mock drafts have him as high as 5. What changed? Nothing. People just had more free time on their hands to look back at old footage. I think the #12 has as much chance of being a good player as the number 6.
User avatar
FutureKnicksGM
Head Coach
Posts: 6,228
And1: 1,051
Joined: Sep 26, 2005
 

Re: I still know what you will do this offseason-New York Knicks 

Post#10 » by FutureKnicksGM » Sun May 24, 2020 7:18 am

Knickfan1982 wrote:
FutureKnicksGM wrote:I would hate that for NY, reducing draft assets and cap space to lock in a tread mill team at this stage. You would hope one of LaMelo, Hayes, Haliburton would be available at 6, who project to be better than a lower end combo guard like Rozier, and without the big contract. Hield is a good shooter, but at age 27, doesn’t make sense to give up assets to acquire him as piece to put next to the 19 year old RJ. You could sign a younger guy like Beasley instead, or throw money at Bogdan or Fournier as similar level (and aged) players, while just giving up capspace.



1. The problem with "throwing money at free agents" is that we've tried that repeatedly. And we've failed. Repeatedly. Money means nothing if you don't have a culture that is attractive to free agents. When the money is similar and one place offers lower income taxes (NY is expensive) and a culture that isn't widely considered poisonous then the Knicks are going to lose out each and every time. Its just not an attractive free agent destination. So I am thinking more big picture here. Make the team less of an embarrassment on the court and hope Dolan can step back and make the atmosphere less poisonous. In maybe 3 or 4 years we become a more attractive destination.

2. The other part of becoming a more attractive destination is by developing a star level guy. RJ Barrett has to be that guy. So get him guys who spread the floor and make it easier for Barrett to develop into that star level guy. For instance, for all Rozier's limitations the guy can shoot. He's a threat from range. Elfrid Payton (the guy whose minutes he'd be taking) was not a threat from range at all. He shot only 1 3pt per game and hit it at a meager 20% clip. Meanwhile, Terry Rozier is a career 37% shooter from long range. That's almost double the percentage despite taking a lot more shots from range.

3. Regarding the draft picks. Yea, they are painful. It took me a while to come to grips with this deal as well but you know what.....with no March Madness and limited opportunities to get these young guys into workouts and combines the draft is going to be even more of a crap shoot than normal. For instance, Tyrese Halliberton was a guy I wanted the Knicks to draft for a while. Up until a month or so ago most mock drafts had him going between 10-13. As much as I liked him the value just didn't match up for our spot in the draft. He would have been a major reach. Now some of those same mock drafts have him as high as 5. What changed? Nothing. People just had more free time on their hands to look back at old footage. I think the #12 has as much chance of being a good player as the number 6.


Yes we’ve failed to get stars via FA, but we can get some of these second tier guys on occasion. I think when there are only 3 or 4 teams with actual cap space (with NY being one of them) and noting the unwillingness to spend money for most teams following Covid-19, the Knicks become more attractive. I would be against spending on FA now given we’re essentially at the infancy of the rebuild, but just pointing out that second tier guys of the caliber of Hield can be had in free agency, so no point in giving up assets on top via trade.

Absolutely Barrett’s development is key, and while I understand that better shooting would help give him more space, it doesn’t really drive if he can reach his potential or not. That’s really up to if he can learn to drive right and finish right? Can he become a better shooter all across the board? That’s really on his individual skill development, nothing more. If you must get shooting at the 1, sign a DJ Augustine as a stop gap, sign a Quinn Cook. Draft a Cassius Winston with the pick you have being trading away.

Rozier doesn’t move the needle. I wouldn’t trade Randle straight up with Terry’s extra guaranteed year, let alone add assets to the swap.

Your right that a home grown star would help attract free agents. But it’s actually multiple. A guy like Iggy joined the warriors away from DEN because of the core of Steph, Klay and Draymond that was built through the draft. And while they ended up picking Draymond in the second, they did everything in their power to tank to make sure they keep their first that year (which ended up being Barnes), because they knew the importance of draft picks. Same thing in Seattle, when KD was picked, they could have kept still in his prime Ray Allen, but instead shipped him off for another lotto pick. They never prioritised win now talent, but instead the focused on draft picks, ended up drafting 3 superstars back to back, and picking up guys like Ibaka while taking on bad contracts. While we will most likely never get as lucky with our draft picks, we should focus on draft capital for the next 2-3 seasons until the homegrown stars emerge, then supplement via free agency and/or trade.
WargamesX
Bench Warmer
Posts: 1,268
And1: 681
Joined: Apr 10, 2017
   

Re: I still know what you will do this offseason-New York Knicks 

Post#11 » by WargamesX » Sun May 24, 2020 11:02 am

FutureKnicksGM wrote:
Knickfan1982 wrote:
FutureKnicksGM wrote:I would hate that for NY, reducing draft assets and cap space to lock in a tread mill team at this stage. You would hope one of LaMelo, Hayes, Haliburton would be available at 6, who project to be better than a lower end combo guard like Rozier, and without the big contract. Hield is a good shooter, but at age 27, doesn’t make sense to give up assets to acquire him as piece to put next to the 19 year old RJ. You could sign a younger guy like Beasley instead, or throw money at Bogdan or Fournier as similar level (and aged) players, while just giving up capspace.



1. The problem with "throwing money at free agents" is that we've tried that repeatedly. And we've failed. Repeatedly. Money means nothing if you don't have a culture that is attractive to free agents. When the money is similar and one place offers lower income taxes (NY is expensive) and a culture that isn't widely considered poisonous then the Knicks are going to lose out each and every time. Its just not an attractive free agent destination. So I am thinking more big picture here. Make the team less of an embarrassment on the court and hope Dolan can step back and make the atmosphere less poisonous. In maybe 3 or 4 years we become a more attractive destination.

2. The other part of becoming a more attractive destination is by developing a star level guy. RJ Barrett has to be that guy. So get him guys who spread the floor and make it easier for Barrett to develop into that star level guy. For instance, for all Rozier's limitations the guy can shoot. He's a threat from range. Elfrid Payton (the guy whose minutes he'd be taking) was not a threat from range at all. He shot only 1 3pt per game and hit it at a meager 20% clip. Meanwhile, Terry Rozier is a career 37% shooter from long range. That's almost double the percentage despite taking a lot more shots from range.

3. Regarding the draft picks. Yea, they are painful. It took me a while to come to grips with this deal as well but you know what.....with no March Madness and limited opportunities to get these young guys into workouts and combines the draft is going to be even more of a crap shoot than normal. For instance, Tyrese Halliberton was a guy I wanted the Knicks to draft for a while. Up until a month or so ago most mock drafts had him going between 10-13. As much as I liked him the value just didn't match up for our spot in the draft. He would have been a major reach. Now some of those same mock drafts have him as high as 5. What changed? Nothing. People just had more free time on their hands to look back at old footage. I think the #12 has as much chance of being a good player as the number 6.


Yes we’ve failed to get stars via FA, but we can get some of these second tier guys on occasion. I think when there are only 3 or 4 teams with actual cap space (with NY being one of them) and noting the unwillingness to spend money for most teams following Covid-19, the Knicks become more attractive. I would be against spending on FA now given we’re essentially at the infancy of the rebuild, but just pointing out that second tier guys of the caliber of Hield can be had in free agency, so no point in giving up assets on top via trade.

Absolutely Barrett’s development is key, and while I understand that better shooting would help give him more space, it doesn’t really drive if he can reach his potential or not. That’s really up to if he can learn to drive right and finish right? Can he become a better shooter all across the board? That’s really on his individual skill development, nothing more. If you must get shooting at the 1, sign a DJ Augustine as a stop gap, sign a Quinn Cook. Draft a Cassius Winston with the pick you have being trading away.

Rozier doesn’t move the needle. I wouldn’t trade Randle straight up with Terry’s extra guaranteed year, let alone add assets to the swap.

Your right that a home grown star would help attract free agents. But it’s actually multiple. A guy like Iggy joined the warriors away from DEN because of the core of Steph, Klay and Draymond that was built through the draft. And while they ended up picking Draymond in the second, they did everything in their power to tank to make sure they keep their first that year (which ended up being Barnes), because they knew the importance of draft picks. Same thing in Seattle, when KD was picked, they could have kept still in his prime Ray Allen, but instead shipped him off for another lotto pick. They never prioritised win now talent, but instead the focused on draft picks, ended up drafting 3 superstars back to back, and picking up guys like Ibaka while taking on bad contracts. While we will most likely never get as lucky with our draft picks, we should focus on draft capital for the next 2-3 seasons until the homegrown stars emerge, then supplement via free agency and/or trade.


I agree it makes more sense to take on draft Capitol in trades for our cap space, because the value of cap space has gone up and our team is relatively young. Taking on a bad contract isn’t wasting their prime because they haven’t hit it yet.
Matthew 6:5
aguiar95
Freshman
Posts: 97
And1: 27
Joined: Mar 10, 2020
     

Re: I still know what you will do this offseason-New York Knicks 

Post#12 » by aguiar95 » Sun May 24, 2020 1:59 pm

My offseason would go like this:

Hire:
Marc Jackson

Draft:
L. Ball (1-4) or C. Anthony (6-9), T. Bey (27).

Trade:
K. Love + A . Drummond for J. Randle, B. Portis, W. Ellington, F. Ntilikina (or DSJ/Knox), 2020 CHA 2nd (38). Kind of a lateral move for CLE, since they gave up a 2nd + expirings for Drummond. I can be convinced of giving the 2020 LAC 1st (27) while retaining the 2020 CHA 2nd. Have to see what CLE fans think of this.

Try to trade DSJ/Knox for 2nd rounders, if not I'm fine with them on 3rd string.

Sign:
Harkless MLE (2y, TO on the 2nd).
Dotson OR Trier (whoever you prefer) to the min.

E. Payton/C. Anthony/D. Smith Jr.
R.J. Barrett/R. Bullock/A. Trier
M. Harkless/T. Bey/ I. Brazdeikis
K. Love/T. Gibson/K. Knox
A. Drummond/M. Robinson

That's roughly 120M on 14 Players for next season (if the cap doesn't take a major hit I feel it's a good number, If not you can always cut Gibson/Bullock and save 10M). You still have 2 Max slots for '21 if needed.
SaintS
Sophomore
Posts: 194
And1: 31
Joined: May 24, 2012
   

Re: I still know what you will do this offseason-New York Knicks 

Post#13 » by SaintS » Mon May 25, 2020 6:41 am

If Kings agree to trade Hield, for sure not with 12 pick or may be with Pick but add Barnes / Joseph and dump his salary.
I see a really big chances that Fox wants out.
jimmy keys
Analyst
Posts: 3,601
And1: 1,935
Joined: Jan 04, 2009
     

Re: I still know what you will do this offseason-New York Knicks 

Post#14 » by jimmy keys » Mon May 25, 2020 3:17 pm

aguiar95 wrote:My offseason would go like this:

Hire:
Marc Jackson



Damn you already messed up.
aguiar95
Freshman
Posts: 97
And1: 27
Joined: Mar 10, 2020
     

Re: I still know what you will do this offseason-New York Knicks 

Post#15 » by aguiar95 » Mon May 25, 2020 3:29 pm

jimmy keys wrote:
aguiar95 wrote:My offseason would go like this:

Hire:
Marc Jackson



Damn you already messed up.


Maybe it's just me wanting someone to take him out of the broadcast/media.

Return to Trades and Transactions