Another Atlanta Plan, w/ Boston, Orlando

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Who is worth more?

John Collins
9
25%
Jonathan Isaac
23
64%
Equal in value
4
11%
 
Total votes: 36

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Re: Another Atlanta Plan, w/ Boston, Orlando 

Post#81 » by Buzzard » Sat Aug 1, 2020 1:22 pm

Skin wrote:
Buzzard wrote:
Skin wrote:You can quote numbers all you want. I'm not saying they are exactly the same. No 2 players are. Similar shade is all. Good big man on a bad team... more offense than defense oriented... Improperly valued players who will make a lot of money fooling dumb GMs. I hear people here (was it you?) saying Collins is a max guy and that just sounds cringy.

I prefer to point to win/loss record; but pointing out the Magic were 1 game over .500 without Isaac and 6 games under .500 with Isaac for a similar amount of games seems to be an irrelevant point. What matters more to quite a few posters is his 22 year old upside and his on/off court stats.

Without Isaac the Magic were 17 and 16, 33 Games

With Isaac the Magic were 13 and 19, 32 Games

I got no argument against betting on young players and their upside. I just think ignoring some very basic facts when comparing both players is ridiculous. Bet on Isaac all you want, but that does not change the facts he has not been close to the most dependable or trend worthy player in his class by any stretch.

Next season will tell a clearer tale. Collins in his 4th, Isaac in his 4th. It will be interesting to see who keeps helping their team the most while also improving their own games.

The Magic are not built around Isaac being an integral piece yet. He's certainly a big, if not the biggest part of their future, but he's not there yet. So looking at the win loss column is an exercise in poor judgement.

The Hawks decided to blow things up and start a youth movement. Collins is a big part of that. So your W/L record is relative, but it is not a proper reflection of individual value. I applaud the Hawks for the way they are doing it. I think that's the way to go. The Magic are just frustrating to me. They are the 5th highest in the league in terms of player salary. They refuse to bottom out and the minutes that they give to young players is heavily conservative. There literally has to be no other option in order for young guys to play early on and they don't prefer that if they have a choice.

Stats are like a bikini. They show some, but not all. :wink:

I agree about stats. I look at them, I search for trends, but at the end of the day, I think Win/Loss record is the ultimate tell all.
"Offense sells tickets, defense wins games, rebounding wins championships." Pat Summitt

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Re: Another Atlanta Plan, w/ Boston, Orlando 

Post#82 » by NotACat » Sat Aug 1, 2020 1:56 pm

Buzzard wrote:
Skin wrote:
Buzzard wrote:I prefer to point to win/loss record; but pointing out the Magic were 1 game over .500 without Isaac and 6 games under .500 with Isaac for a similar amount of games seems to be an irrelevant point. What matters more to quite a few posters is his 22 year old upside and his on/off court stats.

Without Isaac the Magic were 17 and 16, 33 Games

With Isaac the Magic were 13 and 19, 32 Games

I got no argument against betting on young players and their upside. I just think ignoring some very basic facts when comparing both players is ridiculous. Bet on Isaac all you want, but that does not change the facts he has not been close to the most dependable or trend worthy player in his class by any stretch.

Next season will tell a clearer tale. Collins in his 4th, Isaac in his 4th. It will be interesting to see who keeps helping their team the most while also improving their own games.

The Magic are not built around Isaac being an integral piece yet. He's certainly a big, if not the biggest part of their future, but he's not there yet. So looking at the win loss column is an exercise in poor judgement.

The Hawks decided to blow things up and start a youth movement. Collins is a big part of that. So your W/L record is relative, but it is not a proper reflection of individual value. I applaud the Hawks for the way they are doing it. I think that's the way to go. The Magic are just frustrating to me. They are the 5th highest in the league in terms of player salary. They refuse to bottom out and the minutes that they give to young players is heavily conservative. There literally has to be no other option in order for young guys to play early on and they don't prefer that if they have a choice.

Stats are like a bikini. They show some, but not all. :wink:

I agree about stats. I look at them, I search for trends, but at the end of the day, I think Win/Loss record is the ultimate tell all.

By that logic, you could say that Trae Young is a bust and SGA is miles better than him.

Its flawed logic. If you're comparing players and production, context matters.
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Re: Another Atlanta Plan, w/ Boston, Orlando 

Post#83 » by Buzzard » Sat Aug 1, 2020 2:00 pm

NotACat wrote:
Buzzard wrote:
Skin wrote:The Magic are not built around Isaac being an integral piece yet. He's certainly a big, if not the biggest part of their future, but he's not there yet. So looking at the win loss column is an exercise in poor judgement.

The Hawks decided to blow things up and start a youth movement. Collins is a big part of that. So your W/L record is relative, but it is not a proper reflection of individual value. I applaud the Hawks for the way they are doing it. I think that's the way to go. The Magic are just frustrating to me. They are the 5th highest in the league in terms of player salary. They refuse to bottom out and the minutes that they give to young players is heavily conservative. There literally has to be no other option in order for young guys to play early on and they don't prefer that if they have a choice.

Stats are like a bikini. They show some, but not all. :wink:

I agree about stats. I look at them, I search for trends, but at the end of the day, I think Win/Loss record is the ultimate tell all.

By that logic, you could say that Trae Young is a bust and SGA is miles better than him.

Its flawed logic. If you're comparing players and production, context matters.

It is not flawed logic. Trae has not missed enough games to actually see what his impact would be if he did. Collins and Isaac missed enough for a decent sample size. Both Collins and Isaac's impact on win/loss could change next season but for this season it was clear as day.
"Offense sells tickets, defense wins games, rebounding wins championships." Pat Summitt

"Offense sells tickets, defense wins championships." Paul Bear Bryant
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Re: Another Atlanta Plan, w/ Boston, Orlando 

Post#84 » by SmartWentCrazy » Sat Aug 1, 2020 2:12 pm

Buzzard wrote:
SmartWentCrazy wrote:
Buzzard wrote:Other than they are both big men, I do not get this comparison at all. Vucevic is not in Collins class when it comes to efficiency.

Collins Career TS% is .634
Vucevic's Career TS% is .536

.100 is a substantial difference. Vucevic's inability to be efficient even though he is 6'11" and shoots threes is one of Orlando's major flaws on offense. At least one player, who is a primary scorer, on that team needs to get in the .575 to .600 range. Until that happens, the offense is always going to struggle.

The Hawks were dead last at 30th in offensive rating with Collins out of the lineup for 25 games. They shot up to 15th in offensive rating for the 37 games after he came back. All it took was adding Collins excellent efficiency back into the lineup with Trae's excellent efficiency.

It was like magic ( pun intended ) and they went from dead last to middle of the pack.


Collins on: 107 ORTG, 112.1 DRTG
Collins off: 105.5 ORTG, 114.3 DRTG

https://stats.nba.com/vs/advanced/#!?TeamID=1610612737&VsPlayerID=1628381

The evidence isnt supporting the argument youre trying to make— Vuc carries a worse collection of offensive players to a higher level than Collins does.

I am not buying into your goal post move. Back on topic: Collins vs Isaac. Who has the most value? The ultimate evidence is the win/loss record unless you think that is not very important. That would be a very interesting take on your part if you do.

The Hawks with Collins back in the lineup from Jan. 1 to Apr. 30th had a offensive rating of 111.1. The Hawks prior to Jan.1st, when Collins missed 25 of those 30 games, had a offensive rating of 103.0. I do not see how anyone can argue against that impact.

The Hawks without John Collins during his 25 game suspension had a winning percentage of 16%. The Hawks with John Collins had a winning percentage of 38%. I do not see how anyone can argue against that impact.

Collins had pretty much the opposite effect on win/loss than Isaac had. But that's ok. I am sure there will come a time when most points scored and games won will not determine a winner or champion. At the end of the season, the team with the greatest outcome of a select group of advanced stats will be declared the NBA Champion. Sounds exciting ( sarcasm ).

I am not going to keep beating a dead horse. I will never understand the concept that some pin point singular stat is more important than winning games; but that goes back to my take on fan bias. What ever trival stat we can use to say so and so is better we will use. Outcome be damned.

Isaac is a good looking prospect but he has a long ways to go to catch up with the best players in his draft class. That is my opinion on him. Collins belongs in a starting lineup and is a 2nd or 3rd wheel all day long on a good to great team. That is my opinion on him.

I will take my 2nd or 3rd wheel in hand and try to draft another prospect at #4.

Orlando should keep developing Isaac and hope things work out.


Im not moving goalposts, man— I’m replying to an argument you made and telling you how youre wrong.

Win loss record isnt everything because it ignores context and strength of schedule. Notably, Atlanta had a very hard slate of games to open the season that got easier over time. Did Collins impact the overall results? Yup. But is he the sole reason? Nope.

Further, if you want to evaluate Collins impact from that period, look at his on/off numbers from then and dont credit him for the team playing better when he sat during that stretch:

https://stats.nba.com/vs/advanced/#!?TeamID=1610612737&VsPlayerID=1628381&Season=2019-20&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&DateFrom=01%2F01%2F2020&DateTo=04%2F30%2F2020

On: 110.4 ORTG, 114.3 DRTG
Off: 107.9 ORTG, 114.1 DRTG

You’re pinning an overall improvement of the team offensively on Collins when this is just not the case. Collins helped improve the offense from slightly below average without him to above average with him. However, I’m not going to attribute the bump from bad to slightly below average that occurred when Collins did not play as a support of the player— it makes zero sense.

Further, I have zero dog in this fight— I’m a Celtics fan and certainly am not biased towards either Collins or Isaac. If anyone may have some bias here, I’d guess it was the Hawks fan manipulating statistics and not me.
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Re: Another Atlanta Plan, w/ Boston, Orlando 

Post#85 » by Buzzard » Sat Aug 1, 2020 2:17 pm

SmartWentCrazy wrote:
Buzzard wrote:
SmartWentCrazy wrote:
Collins on: 107 ORTG, 112.1 DRTG
Collins off: 105.5 ORTG, 114.3 DRTG

https://stats.nba.com/vs/advanced/#!?TeamID=1610612737&VsPlayerID=1628381

The evidence isnt supporting the argument youre trying to make— Vuc carries a worse collection of offensive players to a higher level than Collins does.

I am not buying into your goal post move. Back on topic: Collins vs Isaac. Who has the most value? The ultimate evidence is the win/loss record unless you think that is not very important. That would be a very interesting take on your part if you do.

The Hawks with Collins back in the lineup from Jan. 1 to Apr. 30th had a offensive rating of 111.1. The Hawks prior to Jan.1st, when Collins missed 25 of those 30 games, had a offensive rating of 103.0. I do not see how anyone can argue against that impact.

The Hawks without John Collins during his 25 game suspension had a winning percentage of 16%. The Hawks with John Collins had a winning percentage of 38%. I do not see how anyone can argue against that impact.

Collins had pretty much the opposite effect on win/loss than Isaac had. But that's ok. I am sure there will come a time when most points scored and games won will not determine a winner or champion. At the end of the season, the team with the greatest outcome of a select group of advanced stats will be declared the NBA Champion. Sounds exciting ( sarcasm ).

I am not going to keep beating a dead horse. I will never understand the concept that some pin point singular stat is more important than winning games; but that goes back to my take on fan bias. What ever trival stat we can use to say so and so is better we will use. Outcome be damned.

Isaac is a good looking prospect but he has a long ways to go to catch up with the best players in his draft class. That is my opinion on him. Collins belongs in a starting lineup and is a 2nd or 3rd wheel all day long on a good to great team. That is my opinion on him.

I will take my 2nd or 3rd wheel in hand and try to draft another prospect at #4.

Orlando should keep developing Isaac and hope things work out.


Im not moving goalposts, man— I’m replying to an argument you made and telling you how youre wrong.

Win loss record isnt everything because it ignores context and strength of schedule. Notably, Atlanta had a very hard slate of games to open the season that got easier over time. Did Collins impact the overall results? Yup. But is he the sole reason? Nope.

Further, if you want to evaluate Collins impact from that period, look at his on/off numbers from then and dont credit him for the team playing better when he sat during that stretch:

https://stats.nba.com/vs/advanced/#!?TeamID=1610612737&VsPlayerID=1628381&Season=2019-20&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&DateFrom=01%2F01%2F2020&DateTo=04%2F30%2F2020

On: 110.4 ORTG, 114.3 DRTG
Off: 107.9 ORTG, 114.1 DRTG

You’re pinning an overall improvement of the team offensively on Collins when this is just not the case. Collins helped improve the offense from slightly below average without him to above average with him. However, I’m not going to attribute the bump from bad to slightly below average that occurred when Collins did not play as a support of the player— it makes zero sense.

Further, I have zero dog in this fight— I’m a Celtics fan and certainly am not biased towards either Collins or Isaac. If anyone may have some bias here, I’d guess it was the Hawks fan manipulating statistics and not me.

You have me confused, I was not the first poster in this thread to bring up Vuc. If you want me to discuss him, start a topic on him.

Collins impact was pretty clear; and yes I do know Reddish improved as well. He became a decent rookie averaging 11.9 and 13.4 for January and February. Its only a small 4 game sample size in March, but Reddish looked like a top 5 pick for those games.

It is a team game and Collins helped the team. Whats not apparent to me is why Orlando was so bad with Isaac. Their lineup has been stable for years.
"Offense sells tickets, defense wins games, rebounding wins championships." Pat Summitt

"Offense sells tickets, defense wins championships." Paul Bear Bryant
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Re: Another Atlanta Plan, w/ Boston, Orlando 

Post#86 » by zaymon » Sat Aug 1, 2020 5:46 pm

Buzzard wrote:
SmartWentCrazy wrote:
Buzzard wrote:I am not buying into your goal post move. Back on topic: Collins vs Isaac. Who has the most value? The ultimate evidence is the win/loss record unless you think that is not very important. That would be a very interesting take on your part if you do.

The Hawks with Collins back in the lineup from Jan. 1 to Apr. 30th had a offensive rating of 111.1. The Hawks prior to Jan.1st, when Collins missed 25 of those 30 games, had a offensive rating of 103.0. I do not see how anyone can argue against that impact.

The Hawks without John Collins during his 25 game suspension had a winning percentage of 16%. The Hawks with John Collins had a winning percentage of 38%. I do not see how anyone can argue against that impact.

Collins had pretty much the opposite effect on win/loss than Isaac had. But that's ok. I am sure there will come a time when most points scored and games won will not determine a winner or champion. At the end of the season, the team with the greatest outcome of a select group of advanced stats will be declared the NBA Champion. Sounds exciting ( sarcasm ).

I am not going to keep beating a dead horse. I will never understand the concept that some pin point singular stat is more important than winning games; but that goes back to my take on fan bias. What ever trival stat we can use to say so and so is better we will use. Outcome be damned.

Isaac is a good looking prospect but he has a long ways to go to catch up with the best players in his draft class. That is my opinion on him. Collins belongs in a starting lineup and is a 2nd or 3rd wheel all day long on a good to great team. That is my opinion on him.

I will take my 2nd or 3rd wheel in hand and try to draft another prospect at #4.

Orlando should keep developing Isaac and hope things work out.


Im not moving goalposts, man— I’m replying to an argument you made and telling you how youre wrong.

Win loss record isnt everything because it ignores context and strength of schedule. Notably, Atlanta had a very hard slate of games to open the season that got easier over time. Did Collins impact the overall results? Yup. But is he the sole reason? Nope.

Further, if you want to evaluate Collins impact from that period, look at his on/off numbers from then and dont credit him for the team playing better when he sat during that stretch:

https://stats.nba.com/vs/advanced/#!?TeamID=1610612737&VsPlayerID=1628381&Season=2019-20&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&DateFrom=01%2F01%2F2020&DateTo=04%2F30%2F2020

On: 110.4 ORTG, 114.3 DRTG
Off: 107.9 ORTG, 114.1 DRTG

You’re pinning an overall improvement of the team offensively on Collins when this is just not the case. Collins helped improve the offense from slightly below average without him to above average with him. However, I’m not going to attribute the bump from bad to slightly below average that occurred when Collins did not play as a support of the player— it makes zero sense.

Further, I have zero dog in this fight— I’m a Celtics fan and certainly am not biased towards either Collins or Isaac. If anyone may have some bias here, I’d guess it was the Hawks fan manipulating statistics and not me.

You have me confused, I was not the first poster in this thread to bring up Vuc. If you want me to discuss him, start a topic on him.

Collins impact was pretty clear; and yes I do know Reddish improved as well. He became a decent rookie averaging 11.9 and 13.4 for January and February. Its only a small 4 game sample size in March, but Reddish looked like a top 5 pick for those games.

It is a team game and Collins helped the team. Whats not apparent to me is why Orlando was so bad with Isaac. Their lineup has been stable for years.

As i explained to you before, we were in a huge shooting slump at the beggining of the season. Ross, Augustine, Vucevic and Gordon shot well below their carrier marks. It had nothing to do with Isaac. He is a big part of our defense, but 5th option on offense. He made strides on offense but we dont feature him right now. When we trade some of our veterans there will be more space for him to show his true ability
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2. Nick Nurse becomes Orlando Magic Head Coach. (15.04.2018)
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Re: Another Atlanta Plan, w/ Boston, Orlando 

Post#87 » by Skin » Sat Aug 1, 2020 7:33 pm

Buzzard wrote:
SmartWentCrazy wrote:
Buzzard wrote:I am not buying into your goal post move. Back on topic: Collins vs Isaac. Who has the most value? The ultimate evidence is the win/loss record unless you think that is not very important. That would be a very interesting take on your part if you do.

The Hawks with Collins back in the lineup from Jan. 1 to Apr. 30th had a offensive rating of 111.1. The Hawks prior to Jan.1st, when Collins missed 25 of those 30 games, had a offensive rating of 103.0. I do not see how anyone can argue against that impact.

The Hawks without John Collins during his 25 game suspension had a winning percentage of 16%. The Hawks with John Collins had a winning percentage of 38%. I do not see how anyone can argue against that impact.

Collins had pretty much the opposite effect on win/loss than Isaac had. But that's ok. I am sure there will come a time when most points scored and games won will not determine a winner or champion. At the end of the season, the team with the greatest outcome of a select group of advanced stats will be declared the NBA Champion. Sounds exciting ( sarcasm ).

I am not going to keep beating a dead horse. I will never understand the concept that some pin point singular stat is more important than winning games; but that goes back to my take on fan bias. What ever trival stat we can use to say so and so is better we will use. Outcome be damned.

Isaac is a good looking prospect but he has a long ways to go to catch up with the best players in his draft class. That is my opinion on him. Collins belongs in a starting lineup and is a 2nd or 3rd wheel all day long on a good to great team. That is my opinion on him.

I will take my 2nd or 3rd wheel in hand and try to draft another prospect at #4.

Orlando should keep developing Isaac and hope things work out.


Im not moving goalposts, man— I’m replying to an argument you made and telling you how youre wrong.

Win loss record isnt everything because it ignores context and strength of schedule. Notably, Atlanta had a very hard slate of games to open the season that got easier over time. Did Collins impact the overall results? Yup. But is he the sole reason? Nope.

Further, if you want to evaluate Collins impact from that period, look at his on/off numbers from then and dont credit him for the team playing better when he sat during that stretch:

https://stats.nba.com/vs/advanced/#!?TeamID=1610612737&VsPlayerID=1628381&Season=2019-20&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&DateFrom=01%2F01%2F2020&DateTo=04%2F30%2F2020

On: 110.4 ORTG, 114.3 DRTG
Off: 107.9 ORTG, 114.1 DRTG

You’re pinning an overall improvement of the team offensively on Collins when this is just not the case. Collins helped improve the offense from slightly below average without him to above average with him. However, I’m not going to attribute the bump from bad to slightly below average that occurred when Collins did not play as a support of the player— it makes zero sense.

Further, I have zero dog in this fight— I’m a Celtics fan and certainly am not biased towards either Collins or Isaac. If anyone may have some bias here, I’d guess it was the Hawks fan manipulating statistics and not me.

You have me confused, I was not the first poster in this thread to bring up Vuc. If you want me to discuss him, start a topic on him.

Collins impact was pretty clear; and yes I do know Reddish improved as well. He became a decent rookie averaging 11.9 and 13.4 for January and February. Its only a small 4 game sample size in March, but Reddish looked like a top 5 pick for those games.

It is a team game and Collins helped the team. Whats not apparent to me is why Orlando was so bad with Isaac. Their lineup has been stable for years.

Atlanta = Rebuilding = Young players are main starters

Orlando = Trying to win now = Young players are role players

Orlando is lead by veterans like Vucevic, Fournier, Gordon, and Augustine. So with or without Isaac, they can perform relatively fine. That's not to say that it's a winning formula, but it is the way their coach game plans.

Atlanta relied on Collins much more heavily than the Magic currently rely on Isaac. Obviously that affects the win loss column. ... which isn't the end all be all that you think. You act like there are no good players on bad teams.
Fultz, _____, Okeke, Isaac, Bamba. LET'S GO!
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Re: Another Atlanta Plan, w/ Boston, Orlando 

Post#88 » by Buzzard » Sat Aug 1, 2020 8:10 pm

Skin wrote:
Buzzard wrote:
SmartWentCrazy wrote:
Im not moving goalposts, man— I’m replying to an argument you made and telling you how youre wrong.

Win loss record isnt everything because it ignores context and strength of schedule. Notably, Atlanta had a very hard slate of games to open the season that got easier over time. Did Collins impact the overall results? Yup. But is he the sole reason? Nope.

Further, if you want to evaluate Collins impact from that period, look at his on/off numbers from then and dont credit him for the team playing better when he sat during that stretch:

https://stats.nba.com/vs/advanced/#!?TeamID=1610612737&VsPlayerID=1628381&Season=2019-20&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&DateFrom=01%2F01%2F2020&DateTo=04%2F30%2F2020

On: 110.4 ORTG, 114.3 DRTG
Off: 107.9 ORTG, 114.1 DRTG

You’re pinning an overall improvement of the team offensively on Collins when this is just not the case. Collins helped improve the offense from slightly below average without him to above average with him. However, I’m not going to attribute the bump from bad to slightly below average that occurred when Collins did not play as a support of the player— it makes zero sense.

Further, I have zero dog in this fight— I’m a Celtics fan and certainly am not biased towards either Collins or Isaac. If anyone may have some bias here, I’d guess it was the Hawks fan manipulating statistics and not me.

You have me confused, I was not the first poster in this thread to bring up Vuc. If you want me to discuss him, start a topic on him.

Collins impact was pretty clear; and yes I do know Reddish improved as well. He became a decent rookie averaging 11.9 and 13.4 for January and February. Its only a small 4 game sample size in March, but Reddish looked like a top 5 pick for those games.

It is a team game and Collins helped the team. Whats not apparent to me is why Orlando was so bad with Isaac. Their lineup has been stable for years.

Atlanta relied on Collins much more heavily than the Magic currently rely on Isaac. Obviously that affects the win loss column. ... which isn't the end all be all that you think. You act like there are no good players on bad teams.

Collins averaged 33.2 minutes this season.
Isaac averaged 29.2 minutes this season.

Collins having a positive impact on wins/losses is due to him playing well. If he would have played like a bum, he would have had a negative impact. Which is what happened when Jabari Parker was starting 23 games during Collins 25 game suspension.

As far as the Hawks having other good players, that is a joke. The Hawks have good prospects but zero good vets. Parker was 3rd in attempts per game during his stay with the Hawks; after him came Huerter, Hunter, and Reddish.

No one really shut Trae or Collins down despite them being the only real threats. This is the sign of great scorers, they get theirs and they get them in a efficient manner. Anyone in the NBA can throw up 14 - 20 shots a game and shoot .400 from the field. But not everyone in the NBA can shoot for a .600 TS% or better; especially when teams know you are one of only two solid offensive threats on the whole team.

I expect a lot of growth and changes with the team that will help Trae and Collins. Definitely looking forward to it.
"Offense sells tickets, defense wins games, rebounding wins championships." Pat Summitt

"Offense sells tickets, defense wins championships." Paul Bear Bryant
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Re: Another Atlanta Plan, w/ Boston, Orlando 

Post#89 » by Skin » Sat Aug 1, 2020 9:30 pm

Buzzard wrote:
Skin wrote:
Buzzard wrote:You have me confused, I was not the first poster in this thread to bring up Vuc. If you want me to discuss him, start a topic on him.

Collins impact was pretty clear; and yes I do know Reddish improved as well. He became a decent rookie averaging 11.9 and 13.4 for January and February. Its only a small 4 game sample size in March, but Reddish looked like a top 5 pick for those games.

It is a team game and Collins helped the team. Whats not apparent to me is why Orlando was so bad with Isaac. Their lineup has been stable for years.

Atlanta relied on Collins much more heavily than the Magic currently rely on Isaac. Obviously that affects the win loss column. ... which isn't the end all be all that you think. You act like there are no good players on bad teams.

Collins averaged 33.2 minutes this season.
Isaac averaged 29.2 minutes this season.

Collins having a positive impact on wins/losses is due to him playing well. If he would have played like a bum, he would have had a negative impact. Which is what happened when Jabari Parker was starting 23 games during Collins 25 game suspension.

As far as the Hawks having other good players, that is a joke. The Hawks have good prospects but zero good vets. Parker was 3rd in attempts per game during his stay with the Hawks; after him came Huerter, Hunter, and Reddish.

No one really shut Trae or Collins down despite them being the only real threats. This is the sign of great scorers, they get theirs and they get them in a efficient manner. Anyone in the NBA can throw up 14 - 20 shots a game and shoot .400 from the field. But not everyone in the NBA can shoot for a .600 TS% or better; especially when teams know you are one of only two solid offensive threats on the whole team.

I expect a lot of growth and changes with the team that will help Trae and Collins. Definitely looking forward to it.

Can't believe you still don't get it. Minutes of playing time is not significant. It doesn't show the player's role or his implementation in the coach's game plan and where he wants the ball to go through.

Collins is a good scorer but his defense is mediocre. Very similar to Vuc. Not really coveted in today's NBA. You have to have big men that are strong defenders.
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Re: Another Atlanta Plan, w/ Boston, Orlando 

Post#90 » by Buzzard » Sat Aug 1, 2020 10:11 pm

Skin wrote:
Buzzard wrote:
Skin wrote:Atlanta relied on Collins much more heavily than the Magic currently rely on Isaac. Obviously that affects the win loss column. ... which isn't the end all be all that you think. You act like there are no good players on bad teams.

Collins averaged 33.2 minutes this season.
Isaac averaged 29.2 minutes this season.

Collins having a positive impact on wins/losses is due to him playing well. If he would have played like a bum, he would have had a negative impact. Which is what happened when Jabari Parker was starting 23 games during Collins 25 game suspension.

As far as the Hawks having other good players, that is a joke. The Hawks have good prospects but zero good vets. Parker was 3rd in attempts per game during his stay with the Hawks; after him came Huerter, Hunter, and Reddish.

No one really shut Trae or Collins down despite them being the only real threats. This is the sign of great scorers, they get theirs and they get them in a efficient manner. Anyone in the NBA can throw up 14 - 20 shots a game and shoot .400 from the field. But not everyone in the NBA can shoot for a .600 TS% or better; especially when teams know you are one of only two solid offensive threats on the whole team.

I expect a lot of growth and changes with the team that will help Trae and Collins. Definitely looking forward to it.

Can't believe you still don't get it. Minutes of playing time is not significant. It doesn't show the player's role or his implementation in the coach's game plan and where he wants the ball to go through.

Collins is a good scorer but his defense is mediocre. Very similar to Vuc. Not really coveted in today's NBA. You have to have big men that are strong defenders.

I cannot believe you do not get it. Isaac is a significant player for Orlando; anyone with half a brain knows he is not a significant scorer for them. That is a serious weakness in today's wide open game in my opinion. Hogwash about not needing front line players who can score.

Raptors with Siakam, GSW with Durant, Cleveland with Love, Miami with Bosh, Mavericks with Dirk, Spurs with Durant, Boston with Garnett, Lakers with Gasol. The only champion I can think of that did not have a power forward or center capable of putting up 20 and 10 any given game was GSW before they got Durant. That is one championship without a 20 and 10 capable big; though even Draymond is a lot more capable on the offensive end than Isaac.

Collins is 22 not 32, he has plenty of room to get better on both ends of the floor. Now looking at all those big men I listed, do any of them remind you of Isaac? Please do not say Garnett. KG was putting up 17 and 8 in his 2nd year at just 20 years old.

I have my opinion and have given reasons why I like Collins more than Isaac. I will say it for you one last time in a different way. Trae and Collins are as good a offensive duo as there is in the NBA with 3 years or less experience. For me, that is easier to build around than if we were talking about Trae and Isaac as the duo of the future in Atlanta.

Easy pass on Collins for Isaac straight up.
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Re: Another Atlanta Plan, w/ Boston, Orlando 

Post#91 » by Skin » Sat Aug 1, 2020 10:32 pm

Buzzard wrote:
Skin wrote:
Buzzard wrote:Collins averaged 33.2 minutes this season.
Isaac averaged 29.2 minutes this season.

Collins having a positive impact on wins/losses is due to him playing well. If he would have played like a bum, he would have had a negative impact. Which is what happened when Jabari Parker was starting 23 games during Collins 25 game suspension.

As far as the Hawks having other good players, that is a joke. The Hawks have good prospects but zero good vets. Parker was 3rd in attempts per game during his stay with the Hawks; after him came Huerter, Hunter, and Reddish.

No one really shut Trae or Collins down despite them being the only real threats. This is the sign of great scorers, they get theirs and they get them in a efficient manner. Anyone in the NBA can throw up 14 - 20 shots a game and shoot .400 from the field. But not everyone in the NBA can shoot for a .600 TS% or better; especially when teams know you are one of only two solid offensive threats on the whole team.

I expect a lot of growth and changes with the team that will help Trae and Collins. Definitely looking forward to it.

Can't believe you still don't get it. Minutes of playing time is not significant. It doesn't show the player's role or his implementation in the coach's game plan and where he wants the ball to go through.

Collins is a good scorer but his defense is mediocre. Very similar to Vuc. Not really coveted in today's NBA. You have to have big men that are strong defenders.

I cannot believe you do not get it. Isaac is a significant player for Orlando; anyone with half a brain knows he is not a significant scorer for them. That is a serious weakness in today's wide open game in my opinion. Hogwash about not needing front line players who can score.

GSW with Durant, Cleveland with Love, Miami with Bosh, Mavericks with Dirk, Spurs with Durant, Boston with Garnet, Lakers with Gasol. The only champion I can think of that did not have a power forward or center capable of putting up 20 and 10 any given game was GSW before they got Durant. That is one championship without a 20 and 10 capable big; though even Draymond is a lot more capable on the offensive end than Isaac.

Collins is 22 not 32, he has plenty of room to get better on both ends of the floor. Now looking at all those big men I listed, do any of them remind you of Isaac? Please do not say Garnett. KG was putting up 17 and 8 in his 2nd year at just 20 years old.

I have my opinion and have given reasons why I like Collins more than Isaac. I will say it for you one last time in a different way. Trae and Collins are as good a offensive duo as there is in the NBA with 3 years or less experience. For me, that is easier to build around than if we were talking about Trae and Isaac as the duo of the future in Atlanta.

Easy pass on Collins for Isaac straight up.

Collins getting durst in the polls man. :lol:

Fultz, _____, Okeke, Isaac, Bamba. LET'S GO!
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Re: Another Atlanta Plan, w/ Boston, Orlando 

Post#92 » by Buzzard » Sat Aug 1, 2020 10:54 pm

Skin wrote:
Buzzard wrote:
Skin wrote:Can't believe you still don't get it. Minutes of playing time is not significant. It doesn't show the player's role or his implementation in the coach's game plan and where he wants the ball to go through.

Collins is a good scorer but his defense is mediocre. Very similar to Vuc. Not really coveted in today's NBA. You have to have big men that are strong defenders.

I cannot believe you do not get it. Isaac is a significant player for Orlando; anyone with half a brain knows he is not a significant scorer for them. That is a serious weakness in today's wide open game in my opinion. Hogwash about not needing front line players who can score.

GSW with Durant, Cleveland with Love, Miami with Bosh, Mavericks with Dirk, Spurs with Durant, Boston with Garnet, Lakers with Gasol. The only champion I can think of that did not have a power forward or center capable of putting up 20 and 10 any given game was GSW before they got Durant. That is one championship without a 20 and 10 capable big; though even Draymond is a lot more capable on the offensive end than Isaac.

Collins is 22 not 32, he has plenty of room to get better on both ends of the floor. Now looking at all those big men I listed, do any of them remind you of Isaac? Please do not say Garnett. KG was putting up 17 and 8 in his 2nd year at just 20 years old.

I have my opinion and have given reasons why I like Collins more than Isaac. I will say it for you one last time in a different way. Trae and Collins are as good a offensive duo as there is in the NBA with 3 years or less experience. For me, that is easier to build around than if we were talking about Trae and Isaac as the duo of the future in Atlanta.

Easy pass on Collins for Isaac straight up.

Collins getting durst in the polls man. :lol:


And that means what exactly when we are talking about two 22 year old players with around 8 peak years left to play? I guess you relate winning a fan poll with 32 total participants to making a All Star game or winning a NBA Championship. Congratulations, I am happy for you.

Trae and Collins for 8 more years, I am happy for the Hawks.



Having Collins and Capela's energy on the court is going to be fun to watch.
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Re: Another Atlanta Plan, w/ Boston, Orlando 

Post#93 » by Skin » Sun Aug 2, 2020 1:48 am

Buzzard wrote:
Skin wrote:
Buzzard wrote:I cannot believe you do not get it. Isaac is a significant player for Orlando; anyone with half a brain knows he is not a significant scorer for them. That is a serious weakness in today's wide open game in my opinion. Hogwash about not needing front line players who can score.

GSW with Durant, Cleveland with Love, Miami with Bosh, Mavericks with Dirk, Spurs with Durant, Boston with Garnet, Lakers with Gasol. The only champion I can think of that did not have a power forward or center capable of putting up 20 and 10 any given game was GSW before they got Durant. That is one championship without a 20 and 10 capable big; though even Draymond is a lot more capable on the offensive end than Isaac.

Collins is 22 not 32, he has plenty of room to get better on both ends of the floor. Now looking at all those big men I listed, do any of them remind you of Isaac? Please do not say Garnett. KG was putting up 17 and 8 in his 2nd year at just 20 years old.

I have my opinion and have given reasons why I like Collins more than Isaac. I will say it for you one last time in a different way. Trae and Collins are as good a offensive duo as there is in the NBA with 3 years or less experience. For me, that is easier to build around than if we were talking about Trae and Isaac as the duo of the future in Atlanta.

Easy pass on Collins for Isaac straight up.

Collins getting durst in the polls man. :lol:


And that means what exactly when we are talking about two 22 year old players with around 8 peak years left to play? I guess you relate winning a fan poll with 32 total participants to making a All Star game or winning a NBA Championship. Congratulations, I am happy for you.

Trae and Collins for 8 more years, I am happy for the Hawks.



Having Collins and Capela's energy on the court is going to be fun to watch.

I'm not saying you can't be happy, I'm just saying who's better. Don't fight it, just be happy. Isaac is better than Collins and Trae is better than Fultz. It is what it is.
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Re: Another Atlanta Plan, w/ Boston, Orlando 

Post#94 » by Buzzard » Sun Aug 2, 2020 1:57 am

Skin wrote:
Buzzard wrote:
Skin wrote:Collins getting durst in the polls man. :lol:


And that means what exactly when we are talking about two 22 year old players with around 8 peak years left to play? I guess you relate winning a fan poll with 32 total participants to making a All Star game or winning a NBA Championship. Congratulations, I am happy for you.

Trae and Collins for 8 more years, I am happy for the Hawks.



Having Collins and Capela's energy on the court is going to be fun to watch.

I'm not saying you can't be happy, I'm just saying who's better. Don't fight it, just be happy. Isaac is better than Collins and Trae is better than Fultz. It is what it is.

In eight years I would like to have this discussion again. It will probably be like the Trae and Reddish are bust ones. Nothing but crickets from the opposing views in probably less than three years. My view on Collins has nothing to do with my thinking on Isaac.

I see Isaac as a solid defensive prospect; but if he does not make a nice jump in his 4th season, I would write off just about any chance for him to ever make a All Star game.

We are entitled to our opinions and we are all entitled to be wrong or right.
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Re: Another Atlanta Plan, w/ Boston, Orlando 

Post#95 » by Ball4life32 » Sun Aug 2, 2020 3:26 am

Skin wrote:
Buzzard wrote:
Skin wrote:Atlanta relied on Collins much more heavily than the Magic currently rely on Isaac. Obviously that affects the win loss column. ... which isn't the end all be all that you think. You act like there are no good players on bad teams.

Collins averaged 33.2 minutes this season.
Isaac averaged 29.2 minutes this season.

Collins having a positive impact on wins/losses is due to him playing well. If he would have played like a bum, he would have had a negative impact. Which is what happened when Jabari Parker was starting 23 games during Collins 25 game suspension.

As far as the Hawks having other good players, that is a joke. The Hawks have good prospects but zero good vets. Parker was 3rd in attempts per game during his stay with the Hawks; after him came Huerter, Hunter, and Reddish.

No one really shut Trae or Collins down despite them being the only real threats. This is the sign of great scorers, they get theirs and they get them in a efficient manner. Anyone in the NBA can throw up 14 - 20 shots a game and shoot .400 from the field. But not everyone in the NBA can shoot for a .600 TS% or better; especially when teams know you are one of only two solid offensive threats on the whole team.

I expect a lot of growth and changes with the team that will help Trae and Collins. Definitely looking forward to it.

Can't believe you still don't get it. Minutes of playing time is not significant. It doesn't show the player's role or his implementation in the coach's game plan and where he wants the ball to go through.

Collins is a good scorer but his defense is mediocre. Very similar to Vuc. Not really coveted in today's NBA. You have to have big men that are strong defenders.

But again Vuc & Collins aren’t similar at all. You’re comparing one that’s been a below efficient scorer most of his career to one that’s done it on elite efficiency every year. Those aren’t similar scorers....

I’m not sure how Collins improved his defensive metrics significantly from last year / picked up his activity in STL/BLK (avgd .5 more blks than Vuc ever has) yet is deemed mediocre on D (& some say horrible) without anyway to improve....
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Re: Another Atlanta Plan, w/ Boston, Orlando 

Post#96 » by uraverage » Sun Aug 2, 2020 12:13 pm

I will stick with the player smart enough not to get suspended... Collins needed enhancement.
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Re: Another Atlanta Plan, w/ Boston, Orlando 

Post#97 » by Buzzard » Sun Aug 2, 2020 12:33 pm

Ball4life32 wrote:
Skin wrote:
Buzzard wrote:Collins averaged 33.2 minutes this season.
Isaac averaged 29.2 minutes this season.

Collins having a positive impact on wins/losses is due to him playing well. If he would have played like a bum, he would have had a negative impact. Which is what happened when Jabari Parker was starting 23 games during Collins 25 game suspension.

As far as the Hawks having other good players, that is a joke. The Hawks have good prospects but zero good vets. Parker was 3rd in attempts per game during his stay with the Hawks; after him came Huerter, Hunter, and Reddish.

No one really shut Trae or Collins down despite them being the only real threats. This is the sign of great scorers, they get theirs and they get them in a efficient manner. Anyone in the NBA can throw up 14 - 20 shots a game and shoot .400 from the field. But not everyone in the NBA can shoot for a .600 TS% or better; especially when teams know you are one of only two solid offensive threats on the whole team.

I expect a lot of growth and changes with the team that will help Trae and Collins. Definitely looking forward to it.

Can't believe you still don't get it. Minutes of playing time is not significant. It doesn't show the player's role or his implementation in the coach's game plan and where he wants the ball to go through.

Collins is a good scorer but his defense is mediocre. Very similar to Vuc. Not really coveted in today's NBA. You have to have big men that are strong defenders.

But again Vuc & Collins aren’t similar at all. You’re comparing one that’s been a below efficient scorer most of his career to one that’s done it on elite efficiency every year. Those aren’t similar scorers....

I’m not sure how Collins improved his defensive metrics significantly from last year / picked up his activity in STL/BLK (avgd .5 more blks than Vuc ever has) yet is deemed mediocre on D (& some say horrible) without anyway to improve....

Let it go. He thinks anyone who scores a similar amount of points and plays a similar position, has the same impact. The points gained is all that matters. If anything comparing Vuc's overall impact to Isaac's would be closer to accurate. One does it is on offense, the other on defense, but the overall impact is similar.

Vuc overall on/off +2.4
Isaac overall on/off +2.7

Collins overall on/off +4.1
Young overall on/off +7.3

I thought the whole point of declaring Isaac better than Collins was because he improved the Magic by leaps and bounds. Surprisingly not; all he has to do is improve them in a similar fashion to Vucevic.

The Magic have some tough questions ahead if they want to move up past the 8th seed conversation. The Hawks made two moves to tighten up the center position and we will see what another season for Huerter, Hunter, and Reddish brings.

2020/21 could be the year Atlanta gets into the same 8th seed conversation as Orlando; difference is the Hawks lineup is much younger with more room to improve. Bailing on any of the Hawks young core is a knee jerk reaction.

I like Isaac and his potential to improve but I am not sending them our 2nd wheel for him. The Magic have been hoping Gordon was a 1st or 2nd wheel since he broke out in 2017/18. Unfortunately he stalled right there.
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Re: Another Atlanta Plan, w/ Boston, Orlando 

Post#98 » by Skybox » Sun Aug 2, 2020 2:15 pm

Collins' numbers are great, surprisingly great if you've seen him play, IMO. My first impression was "he's a little guy", same as first time I saw other "Center" Dwight Powell live...Call it my lazy "eye test" but Collins just never moved the needle for me. Wiggins has great numbers and a million losses too. KAT has amazing numbers but Butler couldn't be around him without wanting to backhand him. The kind of guys that at the end of the game, you're going "Wow, he had 27? Felt like 12". You could certainly add Vuc and Lavine to that list too...Collins may well be "better" than Isaac, but IMO, his contributions are more easily replicated. Collins blocks shots at a nice rate but # of blocks is, IMO, overrated as a defensive indicator (even though Isaac was leading the league). Isaac's impact on D is so disruptive, he's clearly the most important guy on the floor at ALL times. The blocks are a significant part of his defense, but they just scratch the surface of his all-around impact on opposing game plans. There's no question in my mind that I'd rank Isaac WAY lower on my overall ranking of individual players than would be indicated by who I'd be willing to trade him for. Call it a cop-out if you want to bury your head in stats, if you want.

Neither of the two have played for a very good team. We'll have to see who contributes more in that environment (hopefully both get the chance). But, for me, in that frame, I go Isaac.
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Re: Another Atlanta Plan, w/ Boston, Orlando 

Post#99 » by Buzzard » Sun Aug 2, 2020 8:23 pm

Skybox wrote:Collins' numbers are great, surprisingly great if you've seen him play, IMO. My first impression was "he's a little guy", same as first time I saw other "Center" Dwight Powell live...Call it my lazy "eye test" but Collins just never moved the needle for me. Wiggins has great numbers and a million losses too. KAT has amazing numbers but Butler couldn't be around him without wanting to backhand him. The kind of guys that at the end of the game, you're going "Wow, he had 27? Felt like 12". You could certainly add Vuc and Lavine to that list too...Collins may well be "better" than Isaac, but IMO, his contributions are more easily replicated. Collins blocks shots at a nice rate but # of blocks is, IMO, overrated as a defensive indicator (even though Isaac was leading the league). Isaac's impact on D is so disruptive, he's clearly the most important guy on the floor at ALL times. The blocks are a significant part of his defense, but they just scratch the surface of his all-around impact on opposing game plans. There's no question in my mind that I'd rank Isaac WAY lower on my overall ranking of individual players than would be indicated by who I'd be willing to trade him for. Call it a cop-out if you want to bury your head in stats, if you want.

Neither of the two have played for a very good team. We'll have to see who contributes more in that environment (hopefully both get the chance). But, for me, in that frame, I go Isaac.

You have not watched Collins play a lot. His energy is off the charts and he is athletic as hell. Unlike Wiggins who was touted for his athletic ability but seems to lack the hustle.

Just browsing through the Orlando lineup, it looks like their best bet is to build around Vuc and Isaac. They will need a lot of help but it could be done. Trying to build with a traditional center as a primary scoring option is not as easy as it use to be, but I think it can still be done. Vuc will be 30 this season and probably has 4 good years left in him, so it is a small window.

If that fails, it is only a two year window then Vuc comes off the books in 2023.
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Re: Another Atlanta Plan, w/ Boston, Orlando 

Post#100 » by Radioblacktive1 » Mon Aug 3, 2020 2:26 am

uraverage wrote:I will stick with the player smart enough not to get suspended... Collins needed enhancement.


Awful and lame point. He took a supplement. Normal. The supplement wasn’t vetted and had some red flag substances in it. It happens all the time. No regularly tested athlete is dumb enough to take something they know will get them suspended.

For me it’s simple: great offensive player who’s steadily improving on defense vs. great defender who is improving(?) offensively. Points win games. Collins already reliably scores a lot of points but also is quickly learning how to deny them on the other end. To say Isaac is better overall makes absolutely zero sense. On top of that, sorry but it matters, Collins has the durability. How many games have we gotten from Isaac? You can’t say a guy who has played far less games and shown far less improvement because of it is better than the guy who has played way more games and has had the time to improve in the same amount of years pro.

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