Official: Shams/Woj/Shelbourne: It's Brooklyn for the Beard

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Harden deal DONE - your take? (You can select multiple options)

Harden My Heart - Nets win. You get a chance at a transformative player, you take it. Any real damage is years off, if ever, and in the meantime you are a legit contender.
28
22%
Home Dipo - Rockets win. The love affair was over, and in exchange they got a *good* win-now player in Oladipo (albeit expiring), plus 4 picks and 4 swaps. That's a plenty good salvage under the circumstances.
19
15%
Allen Key - Cavaliers win. They picked up their C of the future for taking one extra year of Taurean Prince and giving up a lame pick.
45
35%
LeVerting to the Mean - Pacers win. Oladipo is talented, but they got a good younger (and *cheaper*) player to keep growing with their core.
28
22%
Driving a Harden Bargain - Nobody wins. Harden won't help the Nets win anything, both Houston and Cleveland screwed up by giving up value for players they will still have to sign, and a rising Pacers team just got worse.
8
6%
 
Total votes: 128

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Re: Official: Shams/Woj/Shelbourne: It's Brooklyn for the Beard 

Post#141 » by giberish » Thu Jan 14, 2021 2:37 am

jbk1234 wrote:I feel like people are ignoring the reality that the Rockets were not going to take back bad money and when you're trading a contract as big as Harden's that matters.

People are saying that the Cavs sniped Allen, but he needs to get paid next summer which the Rockets almost certainly didn't want to do. In addition, the Cavs ate Prince's $15M salary next season which is the equivalent of at least a late first. So it's really the equivalent of two firsts (one of them unprotected) and a second for a guy who is in the last year of his rookie deal. I'm happy with the deal, but I don't think we killed it. I suspect we were the highest bidder.


True, taking back Prince was part of the value Cleveland gave for Allen. I'd still say that it was a reasonable value and pretty good deal overall for Cleveland, Though not a massive steal or franchise-changer or anything like that. The trade (and FA) value of non-elite centers isn't that high.

I'd just add that that Bucks pick is very well protected by the talent on the Bucks roster. Claiming it as an 'unprotected' 1st as opposed to the much more accurate 'late 1st' comes across poorly to me.
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Re: Official: Shams/Woj/Shelbourne: It's Brooklyn for the Beard 

Post#142 » by gom » Thu Jan 14, 2021 2:37 am

I think Cleveland was a big winner. I also feel Indiana made a great move, getting a good player in exchange for an expiring deal and avoiding a heaping plate of drama. My hope is that it works out for all clubs, that the Brooklyn superteam raises the bar in the East and that Houston does not fall too far. My fear is that Brooklyn gave up too much, that they may suffer the same way they did in the Boston megadeal, and it sucks, because I'm a fan of the Nets too. On the other hand, the deal can flip the other way if Brooklyn is too successful. In that case, the pick swaps will be null & void and the picks the Rockets get will not compensate much either.

I chose Cleveland & Indiana as winners in the poll.
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Re: Official: Shams/Woj/Shelbourne: It's Brooklyn for the Beard 

Post#143 » by jbk1234 » Thu Jan 14, 2021 2:48 am

giberish wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:I feel like people are ignoring the reality that the Rockets were not going to take back bad money and when you're trading a contract as big as Harden's that matters.

People are saying that the Cavs sniped Allen, but he needs to get paid next summer which the Rockets almost certainly didn't want to do. In addition, the Cavs ate Prince's $15M salary next season which is the equivalent of at least a late first. So it's really the equivalent of two firsts (one of them unprotected) and a second for a guy who is in the last year of his rookie deal. I'm happy with the deal, but I don't think we killed it. I suspect we were the highest bidder.


True, taking back Prince was part of the value Cleveland gave for Allen. I'd still say that it was a reasonable value and pretty good deal overall for Cleveland, Though not a massive steal or franchise-changer or anything like that. The trade (and FA) value of non-elite centers isn't that high.

I'd just add that that Bucks pick is very well protected by the talent on the Bucks roster. Claiming it as an 'unprotected' 1st as opposed to the much more accurate 'late 1st' comes across poorly to me.


You never know what can happen in the NBA. The Bucks could underperform. Giannis can start making noise about being unhappy. Jrue could decide not to re-up because he's not sure Giannis won't demand a trade. Then you're an Giannis ankle sprain away from hitting on a high lottery pick. I would've preferred to trade one of our own picks and protected it.
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Re: Official: Shams/Woj/Shelbourne: It's Brooklyn for the Beard 

Post#144 » by Topofthekey » Thu Jan 14, 2021 2:50 am

Stillwater wrote:
Topofthekey wrote:People are also sleeping on a Wall-Oladipo backcourt

two great players not so long ago badly injured though. Can they hold up idk but you are no contender as is

I think they're going to be better than people expect them to be
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Re: Official: Shams/Woj/Shelbourne: It's Brooklyn for the Beard 

Post#145 » by K_chile22 » Thu Jan 14, 2021 3:03 am

Would imagine Tucker is on his way out the door soon as well. Wonder what he fetches. Every contending team should be asking about him
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Re: Official: Shams/Woj/Shelbourne: It's Brooklyn for the Beard 

Post#146 » by Stillwater » Thu Jan 14, 2021 3:04 am

gom wrote:I think Cleveland was a big winner. I also feel Indiana made a great move, getting a good player in exchange for an expiring deal and avoiding a heaping plate of drama. My hope is that it works out for all clubs, that the Brooklyn superteam raises the bar in the East and that Houston does not fall too far. My fear is that Brooklyn gave up too much, that they may suffer the same way they did in the Boston megadeal, and it sucks, because I'm a fan of the Nets too. On the other hand, the deal can flip the other way if Brooklyn is too successful. In that case, the pick swaps will be null & void and the picks the Rockets get will not compensate much either.

I chose Cleveland & Indiana as winners in the poll.

Meanwhile where is Kyrie...
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Re: Official: Shams -- Dipo to Houston 

Post#147 » by patman66 » Thu Jan 14, 2021 3:16 am

FNQ wrote:
patman66 wrote:
FNQ wrote:
Dipo had one of their hardest injuries to fully rehab. One of our lowest success rates, and unlike Achilles' injuries, there was no noticeable incline (at least through 2016). Its kinda amazing that he's gotten back as far as he has, but I'll always be wary of him. Not unlike Durant with his foot injury.

Not all injuries are equal


going back 6 years, levert played 2/3rds of the games in a season once. Dipo has now played the bubble games and 12games this year since his injury. Levert is a talent, but inefficient and injury prone.


Ok I understand that, I'm not saying Levert isnt without risk obviously, I'm saying that Dipo had a significant injury that typically doesnt have a great long-term prognosis, and he's going to be due a massive contract next year, health permitting. I'm far less worried about 'nickel and dime' injuries than I am potentially career-changing ones.

That said, is it possible Oladipo beats it and returns to a consistent 100%? Sure, but again I caution - he's had one season where he played at a star level and played the whole season, and it was before this injury. So if you're asking me which player I'd rather have right now, its LeVert, because unless I'm playing to win this season, the offseason puts me in a tough position, where I have to pay a ton to a guy I'm concerned about long-term, or risk losing him for nothing.

And as I was arguing earlier, if the point was just to get Houston capspace, there's probably a lot more players out there who were worse than Oladipo and would likely give the Rockets an asset to acquire him. This is of course assuming that Dipo's value is larger than that of just an expiring contract, which I think is a safe bet


I can understand valuing levert more than an expiring dipo. I just never thought I would see a comment that Levert was a safer bet injury wise than someone else outside of greg oden.
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Re: Official: Shams -- Dipo to Houston 

Post#148 » by patman66 » Thu Jan 14, 2021 3:26 am

Wizop wrote:
patman66 wrote:Wait a second, your concerned about dipo injury history and you rectify that by adding Levert, that is like having asthma and moving to LA for the air
Vic wasn't playing in back to backs . Availability matters.


The thing that mattered is that the GM did not think dipo was going to sign for a team friendly deal. Not playing back to backs for the first month of the season to me is not a reason to trade the guy. Levert/Dipo has been discussed many time here, All along I have been saying the pacers needed much more than levert back in a trade. This is not a new position for me.
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Re: Official: Shams/Woj/Shelbourne: It's Brooklyn for the Beard 

Post#149 » by NYG » Thu Jan 14, 2021 3:27 am

K_chile22 wrote:Would imagine Tucker is on his way out the door soon as well. Wonder what he fetches. Every contending team should be asking about him


I think Tucker and Oladipo will be dealt for picks before the deadline.

How many picks bridges the gap from Bledsoe to Oladipo?
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Re: Official: Shams/Woj/Shelbourne: It's Brooklyn for the Beard 

Post#150 » by NYG » Thu Jan 14, 2021 3:34 am

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Re: Official: Shams/Woj/Shelbourne: It's Brooklyn for the Beard 

Post#151 » by ByeByeDre » Thu Jan 14, 2021 4:15 am

My two cents:

Houston made out the best in this deal - four picks and four swaps.... I’ll get to the swaps later
Indiana did well - LeVert better than Oladipo right now
Cleveland - okay, but they took Prince’s contract AND gave up a first rounder?

Brooklyn - who’s going to play center? Jordan is washed. Word is Green is going to be small ball center? And Harden and Kyrie on same team? Kylie’s a nut job. Brooklyn has a better chance of winning if they trade Kyrie. So those Houston swaps should be great for the Rockets in about two years.
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Re: Official: Shams/Woj/Shelbourne: It's Brooklyn for the Beard 

Post#152 » by Prospect Dong » Thu Jan 14, 2021 4:35 am

ByeByeDre wrote:My two cents:

Houston made out the best in this deal - four picks and four swaps.... I’ll get to the swaps later
Indiana did well - LeVert better than Oladipo right now
Cleveland - okay, but they took Prince’s contract AND gave up a first rounder?

Brooklyn - who’s going to play center? Jordan is washed. Word is Green is going to be small ball center? And Harden and Kyrie on same team? Kylie’s a nut job. Brooklyn has a better chance of winning if they trade Kyrie. So those Houston swaps should be great for the Rockets in about two years.

I don't think "who's going to play center" is a very important question for contending teams in this day and age. Maybe they need one more ring-chaser to eat minutes in the regular season - but it's pretty easy to fill out your center rotation with guys who would have been starters five years ago. When it comes to crunch time in the playoffs, you slide Durant up and have maybe the best two way center in the league. The other half of key games, you live with Jordan or some rando wing who doesn't mind getting elbowed in the throat by Aaron Baynes and Tristan Thompson. Those guys aren't knocking you out of the playoffs, no matter who you put on them...
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Re: Official: Shams/Woj/Shelbourne: It's Brooklyn for the Beard 

Post#153 » by bondom34 » Thu Jan 14, 2021 5:03 am

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Re: Official: Shams/Woj/Shelbourne: It's Brooklyn for the Beard 

Post#154 » by bondom34 » Thu Jan 14, 2021 5:14 am

BullyKing wrote:Quick thoughts that no one asked for:

1. I like the move for Cleveland. Allen is young, useful and came cheap.
2. I'm meh on it for Indiana. I guess it depends on if Dipo really told them he was not going to resign.
3. Eh for Houston. Those future picks have a lot of potential but I'd feel better if I got at least one known asset more than an expiring Dipo.
4. I understand Brooklyn making the move but it does seem like they've really boxed themselves into a corner. They're going to face resigning Kyrie, Durant and Harden to $50 a year deals through their mid to late 30s or let them walk having traded their future picks. If that win a championship in the next two years, it's all justified I think but this Kyrie situation is always a big issue.

Also was going to post my later thoughts and may edit further in but think I pretty much agree with this .

And given the above:

bondom34 wrote:
Read on Twitter


Feels even more meh for Houston, and will wait but think I'd rather do something else if I'm Indy but I at least understand the thought.

I remain skeptical of the Nets, great work by Cleveland. Think I'm lower on it for BKN than most, but if I'm wrong in the future will own it.

Also don't know if I like it for the Nets even as much as BullyKing, but they went for it and got their guy. Not sure how I'd grade it, but meh for Houston, don't love for IND but see the thinking, like for the Cavs, TBD for the Nets but skeptical (they have a ton of talent, a bit top heavy and I wonder about fit and defense).

Edited a few times.

And again later b/c:

K_chile22 wrote:I trust Stone, he hasn't given me a reason not to. If Oladipo doesn't want to be a rocket (I never put that much stock In KOC bc he reports a lot of speculation, but not always, he may be 100% right here) he probably won't be for long and the rockets did not make this trade thinking he would be. I'm sure conversations with agents were had


Fair point, both he and Windy get a little speculative at times. I feel the same on Windy but think he's maybe worse w/ it, but this was reported prior so seems maybe something is there too. Pretty sure its been a long standing rumor.
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Re: Official: Shams/Woj/Shelbourne: It's Brooklyn for the Beard 

Post#155 » by BarbaGrizz » Thu Jan 14, 2021 5:19 am

Anyone that is not getting Harden is this trade is a winner.
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Re: Official: Shams/Woj/Shelbourne: It's Brooklyn for the Beard 

Post#156 » by K_chile22 » Thu Jan 14, 2021 5:28 am

I trust Stone, he hasn't given me a reason not to. If Oladipo doesn't want to be a rocket (I never put that much stock In KOC bc he reports a lot of speculation, but not always, he may be 100% right here) he probably won't be for long and the rockets did not make this trade thinking he would be. I'm sure conversations with agents were had
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Re: Official: Shams/Woj/Shelbourne: It's Brooklyn for the Beard 

Post#157 » by ByeByeDre » Thu Jan 14, 2021 5:28 am

Prospect Dong wrote:
ByeByeDre wrote:My two cents:

Houston made out the best in this deal - four picks and four swaps.... I’ll get to the swaps later
Indiana did well - LeVert better than Oladipo right now
Cleveland - okay, but they took Prince’s contract AND gave up a first rounder?

Brooklyn - who’s going to play center? Jordan is washed. Word is Green is going to be small ball center? And Harden and Kyrie on same team? Kylie’s a nut job. Brooklyn has a better chance of winning if they trade Kyrie. So those Houston swaps should be great for the Rockets in about two years.

I don't think "who's going to play center" is a very important question for contending teams in this day and age. Maybe they need one more ring-chaser to eat minutes in the regular season - but it's pretty easy to fill out your center rotation with guys who would have been starters five years ago. When it comes to crunch time in the playoffs, you slide Durant up and have maybe the best two way center in the league. The other half of key games, you live with Jordan or some rando wing who doesn't mind getting elbowed in the throat by Aaron Baynes and Tristan Thompson. Those guys aren't knocking you out of the playoffs, no matter who you put on them...


Great post - I hear you. I just wonder about everything Nets - trading the wrong center, adding Harden to Kyrie, less depth now. A lot can go wrong. We’ll see.

The other thought - in the East, as we saw last playoffs, is about matchups. Embiid gobbles up the Nets right now, as is. Other teams, not so much. Nets-Bucks is an awesome series.

And another..... Dewayne Dedmon is sitting around, enjoying the fact that the Pistons are paying him not to play for them. I smell a Dedmon signing shortly.....
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Re: Official: Shams/Woj/Shelbourne: It's Brooklyn for the Beard 

Post#158 » by basketballwacko2 » Thu Jan 14, 2021 5:42 am

Texas Chuck wrote:Discuss


I think this could end up being worse for the nets than that fabled Boston trade a few years ago. Those picks and swaps unprotected out in 2024-27 could be high picks with KD at 32 and Harden at 31 as of today.
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Re: Official: Shams/Woj/Shelbourne: It's Brooklyn for the Beard 

Post#159 » by Wolveswin » Thu Jan 14, 2021 5:50 am

Irving + Shamet + Dinwiddie

FOR

Hayward + Graham + Rozier

Irving can get all the shots he wants trying to prove himself as lone star in Charlotte.

Nets get more shooting and improve bench.
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Re: Official: Shams/Woj/Shelbourne: It's Brooklyn for the Beard 

Post#160 » by VDT » Thu Jan 14, 2021 9:17 am

nolang1 wrote:
VDT wrote:
nolang1 wrote:
Lol you're talking about players who were drafted 2nd, 17th, and 20th and all commanded or will command 10+ million a year in free agency. So yes, it is pretty hard to find players like that when you're working with 2nd round picks or the vet minimum. Also you're moving the goalposts by talking about simply being a borderline playoff team later on; I said that 4 late 1sts is already decent enough for a worst-case scenario, so if you're just moving a couple of those picks up 15 spots and/or introducing more pick swaps later on it becomes a lot better.

Obviously the Rockets tried as long as they could to hold on to Harden until he just wasn't having it anymore, and at that point it's about whether the Nets' offer was better than what other teams offered rather than if you think it was 'enough' value for Harden.


I am talk about players taht you can easily get in the free agency like Allen, Levert or Russell or possibly draft them with a second round pick. Being a late playoff team in the East is one of the easiest things in the league.


2 extremely simple points you repeatedly miss:

1. You need cap space to get players like that when they're not already on your team. The Nets will not have any.

2. If you're talking about 2 late firsts and 2 mid firsts, plus maybe moving up for free a time or two due to pick swaps, that's more or less Simmons' value and likely better for a team with intentions of rebuilding rather than being an expensive late or non-playoff team.



If we are talking about the post Durant/Harden era the Nets will have cap space to at least get some middling players so that they are not terrible. Earlier than that, in the next 3-4 years i dont see them being bad.

There is almost no chance these 4 picks (i am not sure the Rockets will be good enough to use the swaps) will give you a player better than Simmons and they could have Simmons now instead of waiting 7-8 years to get the last of the picks. In a league where quality always beats quantity, Houston's preference doesnt make much sense.

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