Isaac to Minnesota, Beasley to New Orleans

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Re: Isaac to Minnesota, Beasley to New Orleans 

Post#21 » by babyjax13 » Sat May 14, 2022 6:36 am

shangrila wrote:
babyjax13 wrote:
jpatrick wrote:It comes down to the medicals. If healthy and retains his athleticism, it’s an obvious yes from Minnesota. Perfect fit. But how does a team trust his health? How do they know if he will be the same player?

Beasley is not a throw-in. His movement shooting really keyed MN the second half of the year after he got back into shape. Plus 19 and Bolmaro? I don’t know. If Isaac is never is able to stay on the court, you’ve blown all your assets and got worse.


My thought is basically that he will always be an injury risk, but that the idea that if "Orlando is willing to trade him no one should be willing to buy" is a bit too simplistic for how the NBA actually operates. So, if Minnesota is reasonably confident that the worst of his injuries are behind him, I think this is a nice way to round out the rotation. If they don't feel that way, then it isn't worth it. That Isaac has those non-guarantees does make it more palatable.

This would assume that Orlando shares that confidence, at which point I doubt they're willing to do this.

I get there's questions of fit there, especially at this pre-lottery stage where it looks like they'll be adding another PF, but they're not really at a stage to be giving away talent like this.


Well, I do think that Isaac is an overrated player. A mid-first, and a large TPE for someone that might get relegated to the bench seems pretty fair to me. And Isaac is certainly starter level and provides a lot that Minnesota could use (rim protection, some switchability, can hit open threes). I don't think it's a home run either way because even a good prognosis there is of course the risk of further injury, and further injury is, of course, going to be correlated to prior injuries. So even assuming good medicals, I think his value is understandably lower than it would be had no injuries ever would have occurred. I think if this trade is off either way, to be honest, it's not much.
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Re: Isaac to Minnesota, Beasley to New Orleans 

Post#22 » by Skybox » Sat May 14, 2022 12:34 pm

babyjax13 wrote:
shangrila wrote:
babyjax13 wrote:
My thought is basically that he will always be an injury risk, but that the idea that if "Orlando is willing to trade him no one should be willing to buy" is a bit too simplistic for how the NBA actually operates. So, if Minnesota is reasonably confident that the worst of his injuries are behind him, I think this is a nice way to round out the rotation. If they don't feel that way, then it isn't worth it. That Isaac has those non-guarantees does make it more palatable.

This would assume that Orlando shares that confidence, at which point I doubt they're willing to do this.

I get there's questions of fit there, especially at this pre-lottery stage where it looks like they'll be adding another PF, but they're not really at a stage to be giving away talent like this.


Well, I do think that Isaac is an overrated player. A mid-first, and a large TPE for someone that might get relegated to the bench seems pretty fair to me. And Isaac is certainly starter level and provides a lot that Minnesota could use (rim protection, some switchability, can hit open threes). I don't think it's a home run either way because even a good prognosis there is of course the risk of further injury, and further injury is, of course, going to be correlated to prior injuries. So even assuming good medicals, I think his value is understandably lower than it would be had no injuries ever would have occurred. I think if this trade is off either way, to be honest, it's not much.


If he's healthy, "some switch ability" is the understatement of the year. At one point (early in the season), prior to getting hurt, he was leading the league in steals (AND blocks). I don't know if he ever returns to that capability, but if you've watched him play to any degree, you can't question his defensive impact. His length and agility are unique. He plays defense primarily on the perimeter and is a menace to passing lanes...until he slides back to make a weak side blocked shot. His offense may or may not get there, but he is the definition of "switch ability". ORL needs to hang in there and see if there's hope as he might still be the biggest difference-maker on their roster. I've always thought he'd be perfect next to KAT. He'd also be a really good complement to Jabari or Banchero, IMO. If he's healthy, the odd man out might actually be WCJ-who's really emerged as a solid player. I don't know what ORL's plans are for RFA Bamba, but I assume they keep him or SnT...but no way do they overpay or match a crazy offer...point is -there is a place for Isaac in ORL, regardless of team trajectory.

Personally, I like the idea of Isaac moving around 3-5...his versatility is such that ORL can work him in a variety of lineups, so I think it's maybe overly simplistic to say he'll be redundant if ORL drafts a PF. Chet might be the pick that looks the most like Isaac and moves the trade Isaac discussion further.
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Re: Isaac to Minnesota, Beasley to New Orleans 

Post#23 » by MKWB » Sat May 14, 2022 2:42 pm

Yea echoing that, Isaac looked like a multi-time Defensive Player of the Year when he was last playing. Injuries (and maybe some "controversial" outspoken stances) make the whole situation such a mystery.

Honestly, I'd love for the Pelicans to take that gamble on Isaac. He was the perfect switchable super-defender rim-protector that can take a defense into top-5. The big question: what percentage of that player is he at this point?
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Re: Isaac to Minnesota, Beasley to New Orleans 

Post#24 » by FNQ » Sat May 14, 2022 4:02 pm

I wouldnt do this deal for ORL, I dont understand why people are trying to shoehorn Isaac's vax beliefs into trade value when it wont affect his ability to play in games anymore, and I'm really curious why he's become a popular trade board asset lately
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Re: Isaac to Minnesota, Beasley to New Orleans 

Post#25 » by Resistance » Sat May 14, 2022 5:03 pm

FNQ wrote:I wouldnt do this deal for ORL, I dont understand why people are trying to shoehorn Isaac's vax beliefs into trade value when it wont affect his ability to play in games anymore, and I'm really curious why he's become a popular trade board asset lately




I don't know if he really qualifies as an asset, but there is now less guaranteed salary to deal with if things don't work out in regards to him being able to play basketball.


Jonathan Isaac's Contract Becomes Partially Guaranteed

Jonathan Isaac has missed the entirety of the last two seasons. As such, the final three years of his contract with the Orlando Magic have become partially guaranteed.

Isaac's salary was initially fully guaranteed at $17.4 million per season through 2024-25. Because Isaac didn't meet games played thresholds specified in his deal, his final three seasons now have varying guaranteed amounts.

The 2022-23 is partially guaranteed at $16 million. 2023-24 is guaranteed for just $7.6 million. And the final season, in 2024-25 is now fully non-guaranteed.

Isaac's cap hit will remain $17.4 million per season, as Orlando will only receive cap relief if Isaac is waived. There's no indication that waiving the versatile forward is on the table at this time. Isaac recently said he's feeling good and hopes to be fully available to play at the start of next season.
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Re: Isaac to Minnesota, Beasley to New Orleans 

Post#26 » by FNQ » Sat May 14, 2022 5:18 pm

Resistance wrote:
FNQ wrote:I wouldnt do this deal for ORL, I dont understand why people are trying to shoehorn Isaac's vax beliefs into trade value when it wont affect his ability to play in games anymore, and I'm really curious why he's become a popular trade board asset lately




I don't know if he really qualifies as an asset, but there is now less guaranteed salary to deal with if things don't work out in regards to him being able to play basketball.


Jonathan Isaac's Contract Becomes Partially Guaranteed

Jonathan Isaac has missed the entirety of the last two seasons. As such, the final three years of his contract with the Orlando Magic have become partially guaranteed.

Isaac's salary was initially fully guaranteed at $17.4 million per season through 2024-25. Because Isaac didn't meet games played thresholds specified in his deal, his final three seasons now have varying guaranteed amounts.

The 2022-23 is partially guaranteed at $16 million. 2023-24 is guaranteed for just $7.6 million. And the final season, in 2024-25 is now fully non-guaranteed.

Isaac's cap hit will remain $17.4 million per season, as Orlando will only receive cap relief if Isaac is waived. There's no indication that waiving the versatile forward is on the table at this time. Isaac recently said he's feeling good and hopes to be fully available to play at the start of next season.



If he doesnt qualify as an asset, why would ORL trade him? Especially since they've now reduced their risk in terms of his salary?

Its one of the more frustrating things on this board. Its not clever, its not some negotiation tactic.. if you're trying to sell the idea of your team acquiring someone, negging doesn't work. Sell your guys, because I guarantee not a single ORL fan is going to be like "yeah, you're right, that vax thing is annoying and I wasn't factoring that in before". It just doesn't make sense - sell the assets your presenting, because ORL fans - and all fans of all teams - have a specific value in mind for their player, and arbitrary things like political views aren't going to change that. And that can go for injuries as well

Example: I recently said Wiseman's value here is a mid-late 1st in this draft, somewhere in the 18-20 range. If someone comes up to me and says ok, expirings + 25 for Wiseman.. and they are telling me so because he's been injured and was really raw when he did play.. OK, thats why he's worth the 18-20 already to me. I'm actually already aware that he's been injured, wasn't ready in 2020. That's been baked in to what I expect for him.

I asked a Magic fan recently, as a 2022 draft pick, where they valued Isaac. That poster said #12. A healthy Jonathan Isaac is worth more than that, obviously, so that person baked in the injury issues. If I want to meet his value threshold, I should be pushing the Warriors assets that I'm comfortable giving for Isaac in response, because I have a hell of a lot better of a chance at making someone change their opinion on a Warriors asset than one of their own. The first hurdle to clear in any trade offer is beating the option of doing nothing, and with Isaac, I think a lot of people are forgetting that
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Re: Isaac to Minnesota, Beasley to New Orleans 

Post#27 » by Slim Tubby » Sat May 14, 2022 5:58 pm

FNQ wrote:I wouldnt do this deal for ORL, I dont understand why people are trying to shoehorn Isaac's vax beliefs into trade value when it wont affect his ability to play in games anymore, and I'm really curious why he's become a popular trade board asset lately

KAT lost his mother and 6-7 other family members to Covid. I believe the poster was referring to how Isaac’s vocal disdain for the vaccine might rub KAT the wrong way and create a rift. I wouldn’t assign much trade value to Isaac at this point. ORL should just keep him and cross their fingers.


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Re: Isaac to Minnesota, Beasley to New Orleans 

Post#28 » by Resistance » Sat May 14, 2022 6:02 pm

FNQ wrote:
Resistance wrote:
FNQ wrote:I wouldnt do this deal for ORL, I dont understand why people are trying to shoehorn Isaac's vax beliefs into trade value when it wont affect his ability to play in games anymore, and I'm really curious why he's become a popular trade board asset lately




I don't know if he really qualifies as an asset, but there is now less guaranteed salary to deal with if things don't work out in regards to him being able to play basketball.


Jonathan Isaac's Contract Becomes Partially Guaranteed

Jonathan Isaac has missed the entirety of the last two seasons. As such, the final three years of his contract with the Orlando Magic have become partially guaranteed.

Isaac's salary was initially fully guaranteed at $17.4 million per season through 2024-25. Because Isaac didn't meet games played thresholds specified in his deal, his final three seasons now have varying guaranteed amounts.

The 2022-23 is partially guaranteed at $16 million. 2023-24 is guaranteed for just $7.6 million. And the final season, in 2024-25 is now fully non-guaranteed.

Isaac's cap hit will remain $17.4 million per season, as Orlando will only receive cap relief if Isaac is waived. There's no indication that waiving the versatile forward is on the table at this time. Isaac recently said he's feeling good and hopes to be fully available to play at the start of next season.



If he doesnt qualify as an asset, why would ORL trade him? Especially since they've now reduced their risk in terms of his salary?

Its one of the more frustrating things on this board. Its not clever, its not some negotiation tactic.. if you're trying to sell the idea of your team acquiring someone, negging doesn't work. Sell your guys, because I guarantee not a single ORL fan is going to be like "yeah, you're right, that vax thing is annoying and I wasn't factoring that in before". It just doesn't make sense - sell the assets your presenting, because ORL fans - and all fans of all teams - have a specific value in mind for their player, and arbitrary things like political views aren't going to change that. And that can go for injuries as well

Example: I recently said Wiseman's value here is a mid-late 1st in this draft, somewhere in the 18-20 range. If someone comes up to me and says ok, expirings + 25 for Wiseman.. and they are telling me so because he's been injured and was really raw when he did play.. OK, thats why he's worth the 18-20 already to me. I'm actually already aware that he's been injured, wasn't ready in 2020. That's been baked in to what I expect for him.

I asked a Magic fan recently, as a 2022 draft pick, where they valued Isaac. That poster said #12. A healthy Jonathan Isaac is worth more than that, obviously, so that person baked in the injury issues. If I want to meet his value threshold, I should be pushing the Warriors assets that I'm comfortable giving for Isaac in response, because I have a hell of a lot better of a chance at making someone change their opinion on a Warriors asset than one of their own. The first hurdle to clear in any trade offer is beating the option of doing nothing, and with Isaac, I think a lot of people are forgetting that



In the recent Isaac thread that was locked

Jonathan Isaac: Now only due $23.6 million guaranteed: Does it change anything?

you had this post:

Just to gauge value:

Jonathan Isaac for expiring contracts + # _ _ pick in the 2022 draft

What would you put there?



I had the first response in that thread and it leaned to the reduced guaranteed money being more valuable than him as a basketball player.

Would Orlando be open to another path such as trading him for a blah contract + compensation?

It wouldn't be assigning much if any value to him as a player, just a path for another team to exit a contract that they no longer want. If Isaac is actually able to play, that is a bonus rather than an actual expectation.


Nobody was interested in that discussion and I had no interest in discussions that assigned First Round pick value to him, so the thread continued without me. My position on Isaac hasn't changed, so I will wait and see if things go as I expect with his now altered contract having more value than him as a player.

Trades & Transactions is my home forum, so I know very well what you described about fans becoming locked in on trade values for players on the team that they follow.
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Re: Isaac to Minnesota, Beasley to New Orleans 

Post#29 » by FNQ » Sat May 14, 2022 6:37 pm

Slim Tubby wrote:
FNQ wrote:I wouldnt do this deal for ORL, I dont understand why people are trying to shoehorn Isaac's vax beliefs into trade value when it wont affect his ability to play in games anymore, and I'm really curious why he's become a popular trade board asset lately

KAT lost his mother and 6-7 other family members to Covid. I believe the poster was referring to how Isaac’s vocal disdain for the vaccine might rub KAT the wrong way and create a rift. I wouldn’t assign much trade value to Isaac at this point. ORL should just keep him and cross their fingers.


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Seems like a stretch, adults with differing views on important things work together all the time. Friends even..

But I agree with the rest. Outside of ORL, Isaac is probably mostly below the value needed for them to make a trade, and they should probably wait it out. Because the injuries, while in succession, are all connected and point to earlier returns than he was ready for. Hamstring tweaks, even tears, in ACL/MCL rehab are fairly common from overexertion, because the patient will feel like its normal when it isnt actually quite there yet, overexert, and then wind up putting more strain on other body parts as a result

Now if ORL came out and said they were trading him as is right now, every team should be interested, bar none. And I do not blame ORL fans for holding on him, because an ACL/MCL tear has a very high recovery rate - bordering on complete with regards to pro athletes - and a minor hamstring procedure (I'm going to assume a tear based on the info we have) is also not anything to be worried about long-term.

And I think a lot of people, whether or not they admit it in this thread/on this board, think the same way, because why else would you want to trade for Isaac? No one wants a chronic injury case on their team
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Re: Isaac to Minnesota, Beasley to New Orleans 

Post#30 » by babyjax13 » Sat May 14, 2022 6:47 pm

Skybox wrote:
babyjax13 wrote:
shangrila wrote:This would assume that Orlando shares that confidence, at which point I doubt they're willing to do this.

I get there's questions of fit there, especially at this pre-lottery stage where it looks like they'll be adding another PF, but they're not really at a stage to be giving away talent like this.


Well, I do think that Isaac is an overrated player. A mid-first, and a large TPE for someone that might get relegated to the bench seems pretty fair to me. And Isaac is certainly starter level and provides a lot that Minnesota could use (rim protection, some switchability, can hit open threes). I don't think it's a home run either way because even a good prognosis there is of course the risk of further injury, and further injury is, of course, going to be correlated to prior injuries. So even assuming good medicals, I think his value is understandably lower than it would be had no injuries ever would have occurred. I think if this trade is off either way, to be honest, it's not much.


If he's healthy, "some switch ability" is the understatement of the year. At one point (early in the season), prior to getting hurt, he was leading the league in steals (AND blocks). I don't know if he ever returns to that capability, but if you've watched him play to any degree, you can't question his defensive impact. His length and agility are unique. He plays defense primarily on the perimeter and is a menace to passing lanes...until he slides back to make a weak side blocked shot. His offense may or may not get there, but he is the definition of "switch ability". ORL needs to hang in there and see if there's hope as he might still be the biggest difference-maker on their roster. I've always thought he'd be perfect next to KAT. He'd also be a really good complement to Jabari or Banchero, IMO. If he's healthy, the odd man out might actually be WCJ-who's really emerged as a solid player. I don't know what ORL's plans are for RFA Bamba, but I assume they keep him or SnT...but no way do they overpay or match a crazy offer...point is -there is a place for Isaac in ORL, regardless of team trajectory.

Personally, I like the idea of Isaac moving around 3-5...his versatility is such that ORL can work him in a variety of lineups, so I think it's maybe overly simplistic to say he'll be redundant if ORL drafts a PF. Chet might be the pick that looks the most like Isaac and moves the trade Isaac discussion further.


He reminds me of Kirilenko. Your post makes perfect sense.
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Re: Isaac to Minnesota, Beasley to New Orleans 

Post#31 » by Ducklett » Sat May 14, 2022 9:34 pm

I guess as a Magic fan, I am curious to think if anyone here legitimately thinks that 19 changes the course of the Magic future in such a way that 32 and 35 in this same draft don't. Because I think we all agree that if Isaac can come back at 75% or higher, that is a huge boon for a Magic team bereft of talent. As someone invoked, I am pretty sure I am the Magic poster that said I think Isaac's value is around 12 because on some draft boards there are guys like Jalen Duren that have the upside/ceiling to be that Isaac style of defensive machine.

And as another poster suggested, I don't think the difference of talent at 19 and 32 is that far off. Obviously I would rather have 19 because you get your favorite player of that tier of talent, but is that player so much better than 32 that you trade a guy who can be all-NBA defense?
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Re: Isaac to Minnesota, Beasley to New Orleans 

Post#32 » by MartinsIzAfraud » Mon May 16, 2022 4:20 pm

Ducklett wrote:I guess as a Magic fan, I am curious to think if anyone here legitimately thinks that 19 changes the course of the Magic future in such a way that 32 and 35 in this same draft don't. Because I think we all agree that if Isaac can come back at 75% or higher, that is a huge boon for a Magic team bereft of talent. As someone invoked, I am pretty sure I am the Magic poster that said I think Isaac's value is around 12 because on some draft boards there are guys like Jalen Duren that have the upside/ceiling to be that Isaac style of defensive machine.

And as another poster suggested, I don't think the difference of talent at 19 and 32 is that far off. Obviously I would rather have 19 because you get your favorite player of that tier of talent, but is that player so much better than 32 that you trade a guy who can be all-NBA defense?

if someone is willing to give us a top 20 pick for JI & 32+35 and pieces you absolutely take it and laugh
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Re: Isaac to Minnesota, Beasley to New Orleans 

Post#33 » by Biff Cooper » Mon May 16, 2022 9:16 pm

As a MN fan, Beasley should have more value than a salary dump. It is a risky, but interesting risk-reward trade for MN. If I am Orlando, I am cutting New Orleans out and either keeping Beasley or trading him to someone that values him more than this.
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Re: Isaac to Minnesota, Beasley to New Orleans 

Post#34 » by Ducklett » Mon May 16, 2022 10:45 pm

MartinsIzAfraud wrote:
Ducklett wrote:I guess as a Magic fan, I am curious to think if anyone here legitimately thinks that 19 changes the course of the Magic future in such a way that 32 and 35 in this same draft don't. Because I think we all agree that if Isaac can come back at 75% or higher, that is a huge boon for a Magic team bereft of talent. As someone invoked, I am pretty sure I am the Magic poster that said I think Isaac's value is around 12 because on some draft boards there are guys like Jalen Duren that have the upside/ceiling to be that Isaac style of defensive machine.

And as another poster suggested, I don't think the difference of talent at 19 and 32 is that far off. Obviously I would rather have 19 because you get your favorite player of that tier of talent, but is that player so much better than 32 that you trade a guy who can be all-NBA defense?

if someone is willing to give us a top 20 pick for JI & 32+35 and pieces you absolutely take it and laugh


Which player, specifically, at 19 do you think would be better than JI at, lets say, 75% of what he was the last time we saw him on the court. When it is an amorphous thing it is hard to debate. Put a solid name on it. Could you reasonably get that name trading up with 32 and 35 but without Isaac? I think so.

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