Orlando early offseason in review (HW/bondom34/dbrandon/Smitty731/HowardMass)

[Statlanta]

The misplaced faith in elfrid Payton is quite strange. If it came to breaking up that backcourt I'd have favored oladipo over Payton and done a trade for a shooter instead of pursuing Ibaka before his payday. The Ibaka trade, along with not upgrading pg and insisting on using Gordon at sf is likely to blow up soon with horrid spacing issues.

Ibaka is a good shooter when he gets time to lock and load alongside Durant and Westbrook but here he is likely to get a ton of contested looks and struggle as a mediocre shooter.

Vucevic can make mid range shots but cannot stretch his range to three, Payton and Gordon are hopeless even from midrange so sooner or later they're forced to start hezonja and hope he is ready while moving Gordon to the bench and praying Meeks is healthy.

I do love the Fournier signing, so there's that. This is overall a 38 win team.

I respect your opinion here but I must ask do you think the spacing got worse, stayed the same or got better?
What do you think about the talent of the major rotation compared to last year?

Last year
Payton,Oladipo,Fournier,Gordon, Vucevic
Bench: Jason Smith, Dewayne Dedmon, Ersan Ilyasova,C.J. Watson, Mario Hezonja

This year
Payton/Fournier/Gordon/Ibaka/Vucevic
Bench: Jeff Green/Bismack Biyombo/Jodie Meeks/D.J. Augustin/Mario Hezonja

[BadWolf]

Orlando had two huge issues.
First was a terrible fit in backcourt between Oladipo and Peyton. I'd move Peyton as building team around a poor-man's Rondo is a terrible idea. They sent away Oladipo. i'm not a fan of his either, to much ball pounding, hero ball, to much flash, not enough substance. Fournier's extension was sweet in this market. Dj played himself in such a contract, just not sure Magic are the team that can afford/needs that. All in all, a move in the right direction, though they're worse now then before at guard (pending huge SuperMario break-out).
The other was Vucevic. many thought there's basically just one guy in NBA that makes Vucevic a passable starting center, Ibaka. So getting him is great. Huge problem here is his contract. Will he stay? Do you pay a solid but unspectacular (again unless he turns back the clock) 5 year max at record salary cap? If Ibaka improves and stays longterm at reasonable money (4/80ish) then it's a great move.
Not sure about Biyombo's value. Magic made a lot of noise about creating cap space with Harris trade for two max free agents. They've got away with Biyombo (they could get him without Harris trade), Green, Meeks, DJ.
B- for me.

[wise1-2]

They didn't have to pick Sabonis, pick whoever you'd like. Just don't give up the pick.

And I think he's a solid rotation big at least. Presti's draft record is good, and he sees him as probably starter by end of season over Ilyasova. So that's a floor, I think he's a Nick Collison type career, never a star but a solid starter for a while.

Anyone they would've picked would most likely be on that same level or worse, so again I dont think its anything to sweat over. A nick collison level player is easily obtainable in FA when/if needed, and again you don't have to wait for him to develop. He was the trade sweetner, its not like the magic gave him away for nothing. I just really don't think its a big deal that they had to sacrifice the 11th pick in a big move that makes them significantly better than last year. Ibaka is a better player and fit than last seasons' oladipo.

I mean, yeah, its a pretty big part of the trade. And Ibaka wasn't better than VO last year either.

It won't make or break the trade. How Oladipo develops will, and Ibaka is definitely, at this point, a better player than Oladipo. Ibaka is capable of being a top 2-3 PF in the eastern conference. The Magic probably had to overpay a little, maybe a 20th pick would've been more fair, but it's not a big deal IMO. Especially in this draft. Do you think Ibaka and Oladipo have the same value? Let's say you wanted to balance out the trade, what pick from the OKC side would you have added to make it work. This is just hyporthetical so choose any pick you want, 1-30.

[bondom34]

Anyone they would've picked would most likely be on that same level or worse, so again I dont think its anything to sweat over. A nick collison level player is easily obtainable in FA when/if needed, and again you don't have to wait for him to develop. He was the trade sweetner, its not like the magic gave him away for nothing. I just really don't think its a big deal that they had to sacrifice the 11th pick in a big move that makes them significantly better than last year. Ibaka is a better player and fit than last seasons' oladipo.

I mean, yeah, its a pretty big part of the trade. And Ibaka wasn't better than VO last year either.

It won't make or break the trade. How Oladipo develops will, and Ibaka is definitely, at this point, a better player than Oladipo. Ibaka is capable of being a top 2-3 PF in the eastern conference. The Magic probably had to overpay a little, maybe a 20th pick would've been more fair, but it's not a big deal IMO. Especially in this draft. Do you think Ibaka and Oladipo have the same value? Let's say you wanted to balance out the trade, what pick from the OKC side would you have added to make it work. This is just hyporthetical so choose any pick you want, 1-30.

Yeah, it really should. The 12th pick alone got Hill, 11 is a valuable asset. And Ibaka for VO would be about fair value in a trade, but if you're going just off last season, VO was the better player. To boot, he's going to be a RFA instead of UFA and will be making less on his next contract. I think they had about even trade value, so after that they gave up 11 for nothing. And again, that's a valuable asset.

[Slava]

The misplaced faith in elfrid Payton is quite strange. If it came to breaking up that backcourt I'd have favored oladipo over Payton and done a trade for a shooter instead of pursuing Ibaka before his payday. The Ibaka trade, along with not upgrading pg and insisting on using Gordon at sf is likely to blow up soon with horrid spacing issues.

Ibaka is a good shooter when he gets time to lock and load alongside Durant and Westbrook but here he is likely to get a ton of contested looks and struggle as a mediocre shooter.

Vucevic can make mid range shots but cannot stretch his range to three, Payton and Gordon are hopeless even from midrange so sooner or later they're forced to start hezonja and hope he is ready while moving Gordon to the bench and praying Meeks is healthy.

I do love the Fournier signing, so there's that. This is overall a 38 win team.

I respect your opinion here but I must ask do you think the spacing got worse, stayed the same or got better?
What do you think about the talent of the major rotation compared to last year?

Last year
Payton,Oladipo,Fournier,Gordon, Vucevic
Bench: Jason Smith, Dewayne Dedmon, Ersan Ilyasova,C.J. Watson, Mario Hezonja

This year
Payton/Fournier/Gordon/Ibaka/Vucevic
Bench: Jeff Green/Bismack Biyombo/Jodie Meeks/D.J. Augustin/Mario Hezonja

Your spacing was bad last year but getting a PG that can make an outside shot coming out of pick and rolls could have resolved issues if you played Gordon at PF.

Now it's no better and you are making it worse by playing a PF at SF.

Vogel himself claimed in interviews that you'd have to win games with a 70-68 scoreline. That's not a great endorsement of roster balance from your coach himself.

[wise1-2]

I mean, yeah, its a pretty big part of the trade. And Ibaka wasn't better than VO last year either.

It won't make or break the trade. How Oladipo develops will, and Ibaka is definitely, at this point, a better player than Oladipo. Ibaka is capable of being a top 2-3 PF in the eastern conference. The Magic probably had to overpay a little, maybe a 20th pick would've been more fair, but it's not a big deal IMO. Especially in this draft. Do you think Ibaka and Oladipo have the same value? Let's say you wanted to balance out the trade, what pick from the OKC side would you have added to make it work. This is just hyporthetical so choose any pick you want, 1-30.

Yeah, it really should. The 12th pick alone got Hill, 11 is a valuable asset. And Ibaka for VO would be about fair value in a trade, but if you're going just off last season, VO was the better player. To boot, he's going to be a RFA instead of UFA and will be making less on his next contract. I think they had about even trade value, so after that they gave up 11 for nothing. And again, that's a valuable asset.

I'm not just going off last season. It's been made clear ibaka didn't like Donovan, and the Thunder apparently had a lot going on inside that locker room. I do think Ibaka is more proven than Victor at this point. I also think Ibaka holds more value because he has a unique skill set where Oladipo doesn't have an ideal skill set for a SG. I've watched both play for years and trust me Oladipo does nothing at a high level. Four years in the league and he still hasn't developed into a great defender, which many projected he can achieve in his first couple of years. I think you should hope he develops into a healthier Eric Bledsoe, I always thought he'd be that type of player, but even that's not a given. Bledsoe was a great defender since his rookie year and a better shooter. Its possible that Oladipo doesn't reach the level that Ibaka is/was capable of. Like I said before, I'm not a big fan of this trade for the Magic, but I dont see how its as bad as people are making it out to be. I think maybe if the thunder sent a 15-20th pick back the Magic's way it would've been evenly balanced, but I don't think that holds up a big trade.

[bondom34]

It won't make or break the trade. How Oladipo develops will, and Ibaka is definitely, at this point, a better player than Oladipo. Ibaka is capable of being a top 2-3 PF in the eastern conference. The Magic probably had to overpay a little, maybe a 20th pick would've been more fair, but it's not a big deal IMO. Especially in this draft. Do you think Ibaka and Oladipo have the same value? Let's say you wanted to balance out the trade, what pick from the OKC side would you have added to make it work. This is just hyporthetical so choose any pick you want, 1-30.

Yeah, it really should. The 12th pick alone got Hill, 11 is a valuable asset. And Ibaka for VO would be about fair value in a trade, but if you're going just off last season, VO was the better player. To boot, he's going to be a RFA instead of UFA and will be making less on his next contract. I think they had about even trade value, so after that they gave up 11 for nothing. And again, that's a valuable asset.

I'm not just going off last season. It's been made clear ibaka didn't like Donovan, and the Thunder apparently had a lot going on inside that locker room. I do think Ibaka is more proven than Victor at this point. I also think Ibaka holds more value because he has a unique skill set where Oladipo doesn't have an ideal skill set for a SG. I've watched both play for years and trust me Oladipo does nothing at a high level. Four years in the league and he still hasn't developed into a great defender, which many projected he can achieve in his first couple of years. I think you should hope he develops into a healthier Eric Bledsoe, I always thought he'd be that type of player, but even that's not a given. Bledsoe was a great defender since his rookie year and a better shooter. Its possible that Oladipo doesn't reach the level that Ibaka is/was capable of. Like I said before, I'm not a big fan of this trade for the Magic, but I dont see how its as bad as people are making it out to be. I think maybe if the thunder sent a 15-20th pick back the Magic's way it would've been evenly balanced, but I don't think that holds up a big trade.

I mean, you're free to feel that way, and Serge is a high level guy at what he's good at. Problem is he's not at other things, and VO's still a higher end SG. He's an above average defender by any metric I've found. And Bledsoe's a great player, so that would be fantastic. It would have been fair with no picks at all, and even then the contract status helps OKC. The pick was a steal. Orlando should have been able to pull a player in with that pick of similar caliber to Serge without VO going anywhere.

[tiderulz]

Ah the persecution complex is here. Could it be a trade was disliked because teams giving away lotto picks for no reason isn't a great management practice? Nah, they just are haters. Can you do research after the fact and learn? Nah, haters. Can you say a trade isn't ideal for fit but fine on value? Nah, haters. Really its old.

Oh, and yes VO is better than Waiters. We can show those posts again.

we remember doing research. And if i remember right, you yourself said Dipo wasnt worth Ibaka straight up. that was just a few months ago.

[tiderulz]

I hope you're joking. Because no one was giving away picks, except well Orlando. And the idea you can get a player at 25 you can at 11 is equally ludicrous. I get standing up for your team but this is laughable.

by giving away..i meant trade away so lower value at 11th then most yrs..i thought you could figure that out ..way to spin...to say your guy could not drop to 25th in this draft..or 20th? ...ok...as long as your sure I am just not bright..

Considering nobody had Sabonis close to that low, no. And considering Orlando got no pick in return, yeah they lost value. I mean, when a trade is universally panned, I don't know how you can objectively say that it was good.

i remember Orlando getting universally panned for the Howard trade. How could we not take Bynum, he is a top big man in the game.

[bondom34]

by giving away..i meant trade away so lower value at 11th then most yrs..i thought you could figure that out ..way to spin...to say your guy could not drop to 25th in this draft..or 20th? ...ok...as long as your sure I am just not bright..

Considering nobody had Sabonis close to that low, no. And considering Orlando got no pick in return, yeah they lost value. I mean, when a trade is universally panned, I don't know how you can objectively say that it was good.

i remember Orlando getting universally panned for the Howard trade. How could we not take Bynum, he is a top big man in the game.

Because they're remotely similar.

[tiderulz]

I mean, yeah, its a pretty big part of the trade. And Ibaka wasn't better than VO last year either.

It won't make or break the trade. How Oladipo develops will, and Ibaka is definitely, at this point, a better player than Oladipo. Ibaka is capable of being a top 2-3 PF in the eastern conference. The Magic probably had to overpay a little, maybe a 20th pick would've been more fair, but it's not a big deal IMO. Especially in this draft. Do you think Ibaka and Oladipo have the same value? Let's say you wanted to balance out the trade, what pick from the OKC side would you have added to make it work. This is just hyporthetical so choose any pick you want, 1-30.

Yeah, it really should. The 12th pick alone got Hill, 11 is a valuable asset. And Ibaka for VO would be about fair value in a trade, but if you're going just off last season, VO was the better player. To boot, he's going to be a RFA instead of UFA and will be making less on his next contract. I think they had about even trade value, so after that they gave up 11 for nothing. And again, that's a valuable asset.

so the 12th pick alone got an expiring, 30 yr old PG. who can shoot, but isnt a good scorer, isnt a good passer. that isnt what i would call a great return for that pick.

and i laugh that you say NOW they had even trade value, what a reversal

[tiderulz]

The misplaced faith in elfrid Payton is quite strange. If it came to breaking up that backcourt I'd have favored oladipo over Payton and done a trade for a shooter instead of pursuing Ibaka before his payday. The Ibaka trade, along with not upgrading pg and insisting on using Gordon at sf is likely to blow up soon with horrid spacing issues.

Ibaka is a good shooter when he gets time to lock and load alongside Durant and Westbrook but here he is likely to get a ton of contested looks and struggle as a mediocre shooter.

Vucevic can make mid range shots but cannot stretch his range to three, Payton and Gordon are hopeless even from midrange so sooner or later they're forced to start hezonja and hope he is ready while moving Gordon to the bench and praying Meeks is healthy.

I do love the Fournier signing, so there's that. This is overall a 38 win team.

I respect your opinion here but I must ask do you think the spacing got worse, stayed the same or got better?
What do you think about the talent of the major rotation compared to last year?

Last year
Payton,Oladipo,Fournier,Gordon, Vucevic
Bench: Jason Smith, Dewayne Dedmon, Ersan Ilyasova,C.J. Watson, Mario Hezonja

This year
Payton/Fournier/Gordon/Ibaka/Vucevic
Bench: Jeff Green/Bismack Biyombo/Jodie Meeks/D.J. Augustin/Mario Hezonja

Your spacing was bad last year but getting a PG that can make an outside shot coming out of pick and rolls could have resolved issues if you played Gordon at PF.

Now it's no better and you are making it worse by playing a PF at SF.

Vogel himself claimed in interviews that you'd have to win games with a 70-68 scoreline. That's not a great endorsement of roster balance from your coach himself.

you dont seem to have really watched Gordon play if you call him a PF. his game is all SF, he isnt great at post defense, his man defense at the perimeter is 10x better. He has better ball handling, has issues with bigger, thicker PF's moving him for position.

[bondom34]

It won't make or break the trade. How Oladipo develops will, and Ibaka is definitely, at this point, a better player than Oladipo. Ibaka is capable of being a top 2-3 PF in the eastern conference. The Magic probably had to overpay a little, maybe a 20th pick would've been more fair, but it's not a big deal IMO. Especially in this draft. Do you think Ibaka and Oladipo have the same value? Let's say you wanted to balance out the trade, what pick from the OKC side would you have added to make it work. This is just hyporthetical so choose any pick you want, 1-30.

Yeah, it really should. The 12th pick alone got Hill, 11 is a valuable asset. And Ibaka for VO would be about fair value in a trade, but if you're going just off last season, VO was the better player. To boot, he's going to be a RFA instead of UFA and will be making less on his next contract. I think they had about even trade value, so after that they gave up 11 for nothing. And again, that's a valuable asset.

so the 12th pick alone got an expiring, 30 yr old PG. who can shoot, but isnt a good scorer, isnt a good passer. that isnt what i would call a great return for that pick.

and i laugh that you say NOW they had even trade value, what a reversal

Considering we said the fit was the problem, not value, you can laugh all you'd like. But your persecution complex is baffling when literally everyone thought it was a terrible trade. Maybe its not everyone else that's wrong?

[tiderulz]

Considering nobody had Sabonis close to that low, no. And considering Orlando got no pick in return, yeah they lost value. I mean, when a trade is universally panned, I don't know how you can objectively say that it was good.

i remember Orlando getting universally panned for the Howard trade. How could we not take Bynum, he is a top big man in the game.

Because they're remotely similar.

[bondom34]

i remember Orlando getting universally panned for the Howard trade. How could we not take Bynum, he is a top big man in the game.

Because they're remotely similar.

Ah, no you're right. Eveyr trade that is universally panned works out well.

[tiderulz]

Yeah, it really should. The 12th pick alone got Hill, 11 is a valuable asset. And Ibaka for VO would be about fair value in a trade, but if you're going just off last season, VO was the better player. To boot, he's going to be a RFA instead of UFA and will be making less on his next contract. I think they had about even trade value, so after that they gave up 11 for nothing. And again, that's a valuable asset.

so the 12th pick alone got an expiring, 30 yr old PG. who can shoot, but isnt a good scorer, isnt a good passer. that isnt what i would call a great return for that pick.

and i laugh that you say NOW they had even trade value, what a reversal

Considering we said the fit was the problem, not value, you can laugh all you'd like. But your persecution complex is baffling when literally everyone thought it was a terrible trade. Maybe its not everyone else that's wrong?

i thought we were talking value. And you said just above, completely a reversal from earlier

[bondom34]

Ah the persecution complex is here. Could it be a trade was disliked because teams giving away lotto picks for no reason isn't a great management practice? Nah, they just are haters. Can you do research after the fact and learn? Nah, haters. Can you say a trade isn't ideal for fit but fine on value? Nah, haters. Really its old.

Oh, and yes VO is better than Waiters. We can show those posts again.

we remember doing research. And if i remember right, you yourself said Dipo wasnt worth Ibaka straight up. that was just a few months ago.

The problem was fit. It still is. The value's still amazing.

[tiderulz]

Because they're remotely similar.

Ah, no you're right. Eveyr trade that is universally panned works out well.

but maybe not every trade that is universally panned is actually bad. Maybe a trade works out for both teams.

you act like your opinion and view is rock solid, 100% accurate. you dont know more than anyone else here, unless you are hiding the fact that you work for an NBA team.

[bondom34]

Ah, no you're right. Eveyr trade that is universally panned works out well.

but maybe not every trade that is universally panned is actually bad. Maybe a trade works out for both teams.

you act like your opinion and view is rock solid, 100% accurate. you dont know more than anyone else here, unless you are hiding the fact that you work for an NBA team.

So, deal. Lets shut the board down. I'll lock up all the threads, I mean none of us work for teams, we can't make trades, and nobody knows how anything works out for years down the line. We really shouldn't do offseason reviews either. Nobody knows, so why bother.

I'll email Howard and let him know we're closing the boards down for you.

[tiderulz]

Ah, no you're right. Eveyr trade that is universally panned works out well.

but maybe not every trade that is universally panned is actually bad. Maybe a trade works out for both teams.

you act like your opinion and view is rock solid, 100% accurate. you dont know more than anyone else here, unless you are hiding the fact that you work for an NBA team.

So, deal. Lets shut the board down. I'll lock up all the threads, I mean none of us work for teams, we can't make trades, and nobody knows how anything works out for years down the line. We really shouldn't do offseason reviews either. Nobody knows, so why bother.

I'll email Howard and let him know we're closing the boards down for you.

again, its presentation. You present yourself that you seem to know more than anyone else, your opinion carries more weight than anyone else. ive seen it in multiple threads. I dont know if its because you are a mod here, you think that your opinion is higher than others or not. i would say im done debating with you, but you dont really debate. you throw your opinion and dont consider anyone elses viewpoint worth merit, whether you agree with them or not.