Turner to the Celtics - How?

[100proof]

No way Pacers giving a first let alone Turner for Smart haha.

Pacers rarely trade their picks literally the only time since ive been a fan since 07 they trade a 1st was 2020 for Brogdon.

Wow.

Smart is so much better than turner.

Would you really refuse to trade Smart for Turner?

Absolutely. 100%.

A Turner is far easier to replace than a Smart.

Smart has been arguable the teams 2nd best player in the playoffs and was also arguably the MVP of the Raptor series.
He can defend 1-4 effectively, makes these plays out of no where that can win you the game defensively. He does these things routinely.
And now he has much improved offense.

Start him, no problem, bring him off the bench, no problem, give him 20 shots or give him 2 shots. Smart doesnt care, wont care and will just play his heart out.

Smart is an absolute stud.

[Wizop]

Did you guys do much of the Brogdon/Holiday/X/Warren/<Turner or Sabonis> type lineups where X is other Holiday or whoever was available between Lamb, Dipo, etc? Or McConnell even?

I feel like that would be the "modern" type lineup. If you did, how do the #s look with those lineups with Turner, those lineups with Sabonis, vs lineups with both Tuner & Sabonis together?

Feel free to just point me at a thread if your sub has covered it already... I'm guessing it's come up.

Second unit played 2 Holidays, McConnell, McDermott, and Sabonis and was very effective. A big factor in playoffs was that the second unit collapsed without Sabonis.

Because of staggered injuries the projected first unit of Brogdon, Oladipo, Warren, Turner, and Sabonis only played 86 minutes together all year.

Yikes. That's brutal on the injuries.
As mentioned in previous reply, if that 2nd lineup worked, imagine it with Brogdon/Dipo/Warren and Wing X that you get back via Turner trade or draft with a pick returned from him.

We imagine it with Turner inside on defense and outside on offense. Now I can imagine still better lineups but only with a much more expensive 4. Sure Heyward or Tatum or PG or Giannis or Simmons but we don't want to pay tax. We don't want to trade an 18mm player for two 9s before even seeing our current 5 best players play regularly and we don't expect anyone to want Turner and filler for a healthy all star.

Sent from my phone.

[100proof]

Ran a quick comparison between 8 centers I thought seemed like a reasonable grouping. A tier below the best in the nba and compared not only Theis to Turner but also Turner and Theis to the averages of those 8 players.

Theis
Turner
Carter Jr
Jonas
Thomas Bryant
Lopez
Harrell
Ibaka

The Highlighted shows who between Theis and Turner has the better number statistically per Category.
Theis is ahead in fg%, efg%, and per 100 TRB, per 100 AST, OR, DR, OBPM, DBPM, BPM, VORP

Turner ranks ahead in 3fg attempts, Per 100 BLK, and Points per 100

they are tied in Steals and Defensive rating.

Turner is also behind the average of those 8 players in everything but attempted 3s, blocks and defensive rating.

I think people are over valuing turner a bit. He is young, he is locked into a contract, but, depending on what Harrell/Ibaka gets offered, he is the most expensive contract of all.

[patman66]

Pacers need a consolidation trade, not acquire another bunch of smaller pieces.

Well what are they consolidating? Sampson and Holiday are FA and holiday is locked in by stupid rules to get a sub market deal. Lamb has a torn ACL, They got Doug backing up Warren. I see a team that needs help at the 4 and a backup center.
Dipo is at the bottom of his value right now, Are you thinking Warren and Turner for a star? There is no one else to add to Turner to increase his value. They don't even have a first.

Sabonis-Turner-Warren-Oladipo-Brogdon are the current projected starters

Safe to say they all deserve to be starters

Off the bench, Pacers have McDermott-Holiday-Holiday-Lamb-McConnell

Again, safe to say they are all capable backups

Add in the fact that Pacers would like to find opportunities to play Goga and Sumner, and you're looking at 12 players who all deserve getting their playing time

Barring injuries (or suspensions or whatever), no matter how you look at it, someone is going to end up wasting away on the bench

Hence them requiring a consolidation trade or two, to bring that number down to a more manageable figure

Justin is a free agent, lamb has a ACL tear, Pacers don't need to find min for Goga and Sumner they have to prove they can play which they haven't yet. They don't need a consolidation trade of their 2nd string they need a overhaul of the 2nd string. so you have two backup PG in holday and McConnel and Doug. What top 8 rotation guy are you going to get for that package? Now you have 1 very good bench player, where are the other 4 guys coming from?

Players miss 10 games a year, who among those bench players do you see playing 32 min for a playoff team? As you said, the starting 5 are solid, but likely losing Sampson and Justin disseminates an already weak bench with Lambs ACL.

The pacers need two 4s and a combo guard that can play 24 min a game for a playoff team. Aaron and McConnel are the guys you want playing when that combo guy is not playing. and who and how much depends on matchups. They have nice depth at SF with Warren and doug and they have an envious assortment of riches at the 5 with Sabonis and Turner.

The pacers can get a pf for the MLE at 9mil who is a FA.
Michael Kidd-Gilchrist, Millsap, dudley, Marvin Williams, Ersan İlyasova are the ones who come to mind. Maybe a guy like Garrett Temple/Etwan Moore as a combo guard. But these guys are additions to the team you have now, not getting the bottom 6 guys and thinking you can get two top 8 rotational players for them to go along with doug.

[Scoot McGroot]

What is your issue there are 96 min now between the 4 and the 5. Turner plays 32 and sabonis plays 32 that is 32 more min at the 4 and 5 that will be better than what is is now and Both turner and sabonis are best at the 5, or or are you saying that turner is just as effective playing alongside sabonis as he is when he is manning the pivot.

existing front court total 144 min 48 x 3

Sabonis/Turner/Warren/Doug/Leaf ( now no Holiday he is gone to more money green pastures) vs

Sabonis/Green/Bjelica/Theis/14th pick/Warren/Leaf

And this does not factor in Langford.

yes for the 18 min that turner will play the 5 backing up Sabonis you will see a significant down grade from Turner to theis, but he is good enough to start for the celts and shoot .600 from the field. This isn't mosgov or something.
now at the 18 min turner plays the 4 alongside Sabonis I think the drop off to Green/bjelica is even less than it was at center to theis. Never mind it no longer has Warren playing out of postion at the 4, but can stay at the 3 for the min that were played by Justin. I try to post honestly. Not trying to make it seem otherwise that turner and savonis are the only ones that paly the 4/5 so there is a down grade in the front court for the whole game.

So, 96 minutes at the bigs and the guys we trade Turner for need 72 of those minutes to approximate an impact of Turner, leaving 24 minutes for Sabonis?

I like Theis. A lot. He’s just not quite a Turner. He’s just not quite not quite a Turner and that’s ok. It fits the setup in Boston and he’s playing hot now, so it’s working. But a full season? If Theis, Green, and Bjelica with Sabonis? It just weakens the overall team. We only need one of those guys as a backup, but here we’re just platooning all of them as the starter? But mostly, in pitching These guys and Romeo, you’re pitching how a lot of guys can help off the bench or 3rd units, but it’s ignoring it’s a steep drop at the starting spot. One that just can’t be ignored and hope that depth of backups fixes it.

You’re also missing Goga. And Justin is apparently still a solid possibility to come back and we can spend up to the MLE on him. If a team wants to give him more than the MLE, It’s absolutely fine to assume he will go. And Jakarr at the end of the year may not have been all that much different than a Green.

you have to get beyond "the bigs" And how do those guys equal turner. Turner scored 12 points and 6 rebounds. Thies by himself got just as many rebounds and scored 2 less points in less min and as the 6th option on the team. he shot better and he was more effcient. never mind the contributions of Green and bjelica. Boga plays what 8 min a game in blowouts? The MLE is 9,7 mil, how do the pacers pay 9.7 when they can only give him a 25% raise which will be about 6 mil. And why is Jakarr Sampson mentioned as a 4/Green. Sampson is a wing who might not be back either. If you want to say Justin takes a 33% discount to stay with his brother, fine, but he is already 30 and never got a good payday yeat, this is his last chance.

I understand you don't want to trade turner for the package I laid out. I understand your hesitancy to trade the best player for smaller pieces. What I don't understand is your mischaracterization of the player package I put together and my reasons why those players were chosen or the roles they would play.

1. Theis will play the 18 min a game that Sabonis does not play at the 5.
2. Green and Bjelica will play the 4 for the 48 min. Allowing Warren to stay at the 3 and not be played out of position and making up for the loss of Justin at the 3.
3. Langford will begiven a chance to develop behind Dipo who most likely will be on a "under 30 min" for the first 1/2 of the year.
4. the 14th pick could be used on Precious who has the traits of siakem and Bam as rookies and has that upside.

Turner is the best player in the package, but this package is just not to replace his 32 min that he plays. It is to strengthen existing weaknesses and not just replace Turner. you are not going to trade turner and get an equal player or you would have said those players names. They don't exist on teams that need centers.

Re: Justin Holiday

You’re confusing two different things.
1) we only have non-bird rights on him meaning a 20% raise for what he made this year ($6-ish million total). We could use this as one means to re sign him, or use this to S&T him.
2) we could separately use the MLE to sign him (and not use the non-bird rights we otherwise have) and keep him, as we could on ANY free agent in the league. This would allow us to pay him up to about $10m in the first year of a deal.

Make sense?

[Topofthekey]

Well what are they consolidating? Sampson and Holiday are FA and holiday is locked in by stupid rules to get a sub market deal. Lamb has a torn ACL, They got Doug backing up Warren. I see a team that needs help at the 4 and a backup center.
Dipo is at the bottom of his value right now, Are you thinking Warren and Turner for a star? There is no one else to add to Turner to increase his value. They don't even have a first.

Sabonis-Turner-Warren-Oladipo-Brogdon are the current projected starters

Safe to say they all deserve to be starters

Off the bench, Pacers have McDermott-Holiday-Holiday-Lamb-McConnell

Again, safe to say they are all capable backups

Add in the fact that Pacers would like to find opportunities to play Goga and Sumner, and you're looking at 12 players who all deserve getting their playing time

Barring injuries (or suspensions or whatever), no matter how you look at it, someone is going to end up wasting away on the bench

Hence them requiring a consolidation trade or two, to bring that number down to a more manageable figure

Justin is a free agent, lamb has a ACL tear, Pacers don't need to find min for Goga and Sumner they have to prove they can play which they haven't yet. They don't need a consolidation trade of their 2nd string they need a overhaul of the 2nd string. so you have two backup PG in holday and McConnel and Doug. What top 8 rotation guy are you going to get for that package? Now you have 1 very good bench player, where are the other 4 guys coming from?

Players miss 10 games a year, who among those bench players do you see playing 32 min for a playoff team? As you said, the starting 5 are solid, but likely losing Sampson and Justin disseminates an already weak bench with Lambs ACL.

The pacers need two 4s and a combo guard that can play 24 min a game for a playoff team. Aaron and McConnel are the guys you want playing when that combo guy is not playing. and who and how much depends on matchups. They have nice depth at SF with Warren and doug and they have an envious assortment of riches at the 5 with Sabonis and Turner.

The pacers can get a pf for the MLE at 9mil who is a FA.
Michael Kidd-Gilchrist, Millsap, dudley, Marvin Williams, Ersan İlyasova are the ones who come to mind. Maybe a guy like Garrett Temple/Etwan Moore as a combo guard. But these guys are additions to the team you have now, not getting the bottom 6 guys and thinking you can get two top 8 rotational players for them to go along with doug.

1. "Justin is a free agent"

Who they would like to re-sign

2. "Lamb has an ACL tear"

And he will likely be back next season


No sure what your point is. Fact remains that a bench of McDermott-Holiday-Holiday-Lamb-McConnell needs a consolidation


3. "Pacers don't need to find min for Goga and Sumner"

No they don't need to. But they would like to


Again, not sure what your point is. Fact remains that Pacers will needs a consolidation trade, which will allow them to allocate playing time to Goga and Sumner

[100proof]

Sabonis-Turner-Warren-Oladipo-Brogdon are the current projected starters

Safe to say they all deserve to be starters

Off the bench, Pacers have McDermott-Holiday-Holiday-Lamb-McConnell

Again, safe to say they are all capable backups

Add in the fact that Pacers would like to find opportunities to play Goga and Sumner, and you're looking at 12 players who all deserve getting their playing time

Barring injuries (or suspensions or whatever), no matter how you look at it, someone is going to end up wasting away on the bench

Hence them requiring a consolidation trade or two, to bring that number down to a more manageable figure

Justin is a free agent, lamb has a ACL tear, Pacers don't need to find min for Goga and Sumner they have to prove they can play which they haven't yet. They don't need a consolidation trade of their 2nd string they need a overhaul of the 2nd string. so you have two backup PG in holday and McConnel and Doug. What top 8 rotation guy are you going to get for that package? Now you have 1 very good bench player, where are the other 4 guys coming from?

Players miss 10 games a year, who among those bench players do you see playing 32 min for a playoff team? As you said, the starting 5 are solid, but likely losing Sampson and Justin disseminates an already weak bench with Lambs ACL.

The pacers need two 4s and a combo guard that can play 24 min a game for a playoff team. Aaron and McConnel are the guys you want playing when that combo guy is not playing. and who and how much depends on matchups. They have nice depth at SF with Warren and doug and they have an envious assortment of riches at the 5 with Sabonis and Turner.

The pacers can get a pf for the MLE at 9mil who is a FA.
Michael Kidd-Gilchrist, Millsap, dudley, Marvin Williams, Ersan İlyasova are the ones who come to mind. Maybe a guy like Garrett Temple/Etwan Moore as a combo guard. But these guys are additions to the team you have now, not getting the bottom 6 guys and thinking you can get two top 8 rotational players for them to go along with doug.

1. "Justin is a free agent"

Who they would like to re-sign

2. "Lamb has an ACL tear"

And he will likely be back next season


No sure what your point is. Fact remains that a bench of McDermott-Holiday-Holiday-Lamb-McConnell needs a consolidation


3. "Pacers don't need to find min for Goga and Sumner"

No they don't need to. But they would like to


Again, not sure what your point is. Fact remains that Pacers will needs a consolidation trade, which will allow them to allocate playing time to Goga and Sumner

Know what solves that?
A trade of Turner or Sabonis and a bench piece or 2.

[patman66]

So, 96 minutes at the bigs and the guys we trade Turner for need 72 of those minutes to approximate an impact of Turner, leaving 24 minutes for Sabonis?

I like Theis. A lot. He’s just not quite a Turner. He’s just not quite not quite a Turner and that’s ok. It fits the setup in Boston and he’s playing hot now, so it’s working. But a full season? If Theis, Green, and Bjelica with Sabonis? It just weakens the overall team. We only need one of those guys as a backup, but here we’re just platooning all of them as the starter? But mostly, in pitching These guys and Romeo, you’re pitching how a lot of guys can help off the bench or 3rd units, but it’s ignoring it’s a steep drop at the starting spot. One that just can’t be ignored and hope that depth of backups fixes it.

You’re also missing Goga. And Justin is apparently still a solid possibility to come back and we can spend up to the MLE on him. If a team wants to give him more than the MLE, It’s absolutely fine to assume he will go. And Jakarr at the end of the year may not have been all that much different than a Green.

you have to get beyond "the bigs" And how do those guys equal turner. Turner scored 12 points and 6 rebounds. Thies by himself got just as many rebounds and scored 2 less points in less min and as the 6th option on the team. he shot better and he was more effcient. never mind the contributions of Green and bjelica. Boga plays what 8 min a game in blowouts? The MLE is 9,7 mil, how do the pacers pay 9.7 when they can only give him a 25% raise which will be about 6 mil. And why is Jakarr Sampson mentioned as a 4/Green. Sampson is a wing who might not be back either. If you want to say Justin takes a 33% discount to stay with his brother, fine, but he is already 30 and never got a good payday yeat, this is his last chance.

I understand you don't want to trade turner for the package I laid out. I understand your hesitancy to trade the best player for smaller pieces. What I don't understand is your mischaracterization of the player package I put together and my reasons why those players were chosen or the roles they would play.

1. Theis will play the 18 min a game that Sabonis does not play at the 5.
2. Green and Bjelica will play the 4 for the 48 min. Allowing Warren to stay at the 3 and not be played out of position and making up for the loss of Justin at the 3.
3. Langford will begiven a chance to develop behind Dipo who most likely will be on a "under 30 min" for the first 1/2 of the year.
4. the 14th pick could be used on Precious who has the traits of siakem and Bam as rookies and has that upside.

Turner is the best player in the package, but this package is just not to replace his 32 min that he plays. It is to strengthen existing weaknesses and not just replace Turner. you are not going to trade turner and get an equal player or you would have said those players names. They don't exist on teams that need centers.

Re: Justin Holiday

You’re confusing two different things.
1) we only have non-bird rights on him meaning a 20% raise for what he made this year ($6-ish million total). We could use this as one means to re sign him, or use this to S&T him.
2) we could separately use the MLE to sign him (and not use the non-bird rights we otherwise have) and keep him, as we could on ANY free agent in the league. This would allow us to pay him up to about $10m in the first year of a deal.

Make sense?

I was unaware of the 2nd option. I thought you could only sign him for the 6 mil. I am sure he would stay with his brother for 32 mil over the next 3 years. I didn't that that was an option that the pacers could or would use as that ends up getting expensive next summer with dipo.

[Scoot McGroot]

Did you guys do much of the Brogdon/Holiday/X/Warren/<Turner or Sabonis> type lineups where X is other Holiday or whoever was available between Lamb, Dipo, etc? Or McConnell even?

I feel like that would be the "modern" type lineup. If you did, how do the #s look with those lineups with Turner, those lineups with Sabonis, vs lineups with both Tuner & Sabonis together?

Feel free to just point me at a thread if your sub has covered it already... I'm guessing it's come up.

The bubble and playoffs were the lineup you listed, but with Oladipo as the X. It was fine when teams had nothing to play for and didn’t adjust. It was blown up when we faced Miami in the playoffs.

MIA's really good, though, and have been playing that way all season and Butler is the best player in the series. They blew up MIL, too and up 1-0 on BOS. Do you think the approach is to get Sabonis back and play big? I haven't watched enough games to see how Turner/Sabonis work, so I'm not saying it doesn't. But, it just seems to counter the trend. From the outside in, I'd lean towards picking one or the other and seeing what assets I could get to retool around the other, personally. If your D was acceptable the times Sabonis was on the floor without Turner, I'd stick with him due to the offensive edge. Then try to get as much shooting / secondary shot creation / wing defense back as you can. Obviously, easier said than done. But Turner could get you some of that.

I'm not even saying it to pimp Hayward, since I'd rather resign him or get different pieces than Turner (who I like but don't think we NEED). But, in theory, I love a Brogdon/Dipo/Warren/Hayward/Sabonis lineup. Hayward's a soild on ball defender, and great at team D which is big. Age/injury/salary concerns, sure. But skillset wise that seems perfect.

The team was overall much better with Sabonis/Turner and we think the playoffs would have been much better with Sabonis/Turner than Turner/Sampson.

Our solo team of just Sabonis is one that just attempts to out score others. It’s one that mostly suffers defensively terribly against starting lineups but beats up on bench units.

As for Hayward, he’s really a good player. I agree. The problem is dealing for him obliterates our depth due to his salary. Sure, we can match salary, but it requires a 3-4 player match, and then we are left with replacing those players with just vet minimums AND giving up the use of our MLE due to tax concerns. Turner and Lamb combine for $28m in salary. Add in Leaf, and we’re at just a touch over $32m, still $2m less than Hayward, and now with 2 additional roster spots to fill, adding an additional $3m on vet minimum guys only. Then we’re ultimately filling out almost 5 roster spots with essentially vet minimum contracts, or very close to it. I just don’t see a way to reasonably balance that roster unless Hayward opts our and S&T to Indy for much less than he makes this year, and that’s just unlikely.

[Topofthekey]

Justin is a free agent, lamb has a ACL tear, Pacers don't need to find min for Goga and Sumner they have to prove they can play which they haven't yet. They don't need a consolidation trade of their 2nd string they need a overhaul of the 2nd string. so you have two backup PG in holday and McConnel and Doug. What top 8 rotation guy are you going to get for that package? Now you have 1 very good bench player, where are the other 4 guys coming from?

Players miss 10 games a year, who among those bench players do you see playing 32 min for a playoff team? As you said, the starting 5 are solid, but likely losing Sampson and Justin disseminates an already weak bench with Lambs ACL.

The pacers need two 4s and a combo guard that can play 24 min a game for a playoff team. Aaron and McConnel are the guys you want playing when that combo guy is not playing. and who and how much depends on matchups. They have nice depth at SF with Warren and doug and they have an envious assortment of riches at the 5 with Sabonis and Turner.

The pacers can get a pf for the MLE at 9mil who is a FA.
Michael Kidd-Gilchrist, Millsap, dudley, Marvin Williams, Ersan İlyasova are the ones who come to mind. Maybe a guy like Garrett Temple/Etwan Moore as a combo guard. But these guys are additions to the team you have now, not getting the bottom 6 guys and thinking you can get two top 8 rotational players for them to go along with doug.

1. "Justin is a free agent"

Who they would like to re-sign

2. "Lamb has an ACL tear"

And he will likely be back next season


No sure what your point is. Fact remains that a bench of McDermott-Holiday-Holiday-Lamb-McConnell needs a consolidation


3. "Pacers don't need to find min for Goga and Sumner"

No they don't need to. But they would like to


Again, not sure what your point is. Fact remains that Pacers will needs a consolidation trade, which will allow them to allocate playing time to Goga and Sumner

Know what solves that?
A trade of Turner or Sabonis and a bench piece or 2.

Sure, that is something that would work

Which player do you think the Pacers should target for Turner or Sabonis plus a bench piece or two?

[patman66]

Sabonis-Turner-Warren-Oladipo-Brogdon are the current projected starters

Safe to say they all deserve to be starters

Off the bench, Pacers have McDermott-Holiday-Holiday-Lamb-McConnell

Again, safe to say they are all capable backups

Add in the fact that Pacers would like to find opportunities to play Goga and Sumner, and you're looking at 12 players who all deserve getting their playing time

Barring injuries (or suspensions or whatever), no matter how you look at it, someone is going to end up wasting away on the bench

Hence them requiring a consolidation trade or two, to bring that number down to a more manageable figure

Justin is a free agent, lamb has a ACL tear, Pacers don't need to find min for Goga and Sumner they have to prove they can play which they haven't yet. They don't need a consolidation trade of their 2nd string they need a overhaul of the 2nd string. so you have two backup PG in holday and McConnel and Doug. What top 8 rotation guy are you going to get for that package? Now you have 1 very good bench player, where are the other 4 guys coming from?

Players miss 10 games a year, who among those bench players do you see playing 32 min for a playoff team? As you said, the starting 5 are solid, but likely losing Sampson and Justin disseminates an already weak bench with Lambs ACL.

The pacers need two 4s and a combo guard that can play 24 min a game for a playoff team. Aaron and McConnel are the guys you want playing when that combo guy is not playing. and who and how much depends on matchups. They have nice depth at SF with Warren and doug and they have an envious assortment of riches at the 5 with Sabonis and Turner.

The pacers can get a pf for the MLE at 9mil who is a FA.
Michael Kidd-Gilchrist, Millsap, dudley, Marvin Williams, Ersan İlyasova are the ones who come to mind. Maybe a guy like Garrett Temple/Etwan Moore as a combo guard. But these guys are additions to the team you have now, not getting the bottom 6 guys and thinking you can get two top 8 rotational players for them to go along with doug.

1. "Justin is a free agent"

Who they would like to re-sign

2. "Lamb has an ACL tear"

And he will likely be back next season


No sure what your point is. Fact remains that a bench of McDermott-Holiday-Holiday-Lamb-McConnell needs a consolidation


3. "Pacers don't need to find min for Goga and Sumner"

No they don't need to. But they would like to


Again, not sure what your point is. Fact remains that Pacers will needs a consolidation trade, which will allow them to allocate playing time to Goga and Sumner

oh, well if you think Lamb on his first year back is going to be effective you have a point. But to me ACLs require more than a year till the guy is back full steam. and again are they willing to pay justin enough to stay. Wings are the most in demand position in the NBA right now. My point is that they need more than a consolidation they need two better players than those and 3 if Justin does not come back in addition to those guys. None of those guys is a 4, right now you are playing Warren at the 4 more than he should because you have Justin at the 3 backing him up.

If like you said in this post have both Turner and Sabonis as starters who backs up Sabonis, there is no lack of min for goga, just his lack of talent to play those 18 min. Turner slides over to the 5 so know turner can only give 15 min or so at PF.

[Scoot McGroot]

you have to get beyond "the bigs" And how do those guys equal turner. Turner scored 12 points and 6 rebounds. Thies by himself got just as many rebounds and scored 2 less points in less min and as the 6th option on the team. he shot better and he was more effcient. never mind the contributions of Green and bjelica. Boga plays what 8 min a game in blowouts? The MLE is 9,7 mil, how do the pacers pay 9.7 when they can only give him a 25% raise which will be about 6 mil. And why is Jakarr Sampson mentioned as a 4/Green. Sampson is a wing who might not be back either. If you want to say Justin takes a 33% discount to stay with his brother, fine, but he is already 30 and never got a good payday yeat, this is his last chance.

I understand you don't want to trade turner for the package I laid out. I understand your hesitancy to trade the best player for smaller pieces. What I don't understand is your mischaracterization of the player package I put together and my reasons why those players were chosen or the roles they would play.

1. Theis will play the 18 min a game that Sabonis does not play at the 5.
2. Green and Bjelica will play the 4 for the 48 min. Allowing Warren to stay at the 3 and not be played out of position and making up for the loss of Justin at the 3.
3. Langford will begiven a chance to develop behind Dipo who most likely will be on a "under 30 min" for the first 1/2 of the year.
4. the 14th pick could be used on Precious who has the traits of siakem and Bam as rookies and has that upside.

Turner is the best player in the package, but this package is just not to replace his 32 min that he plays. It is to strengthen existing weaknesses and not just replace Turner. you are not going to trade turner and get an equal player or you would have said those players names. They don't exist on teams that need centers.

Re: Justin Holiday

You’re confusing two different things.
1) we only have non-bird rights on him meaning a 20% raise for what he made this year ($6-ish million total). We could use this as one means to re sign him, or use this to S&T him.
2) we could separately use the MLE to sign him (and not use the non-bird rights we otherwise have) and keep him, as we could on ANY free agent in the league. This would allow us to pay him up to about $10m in the first year of a deal.

Make sense?

I was unaware of the 2nd option. I thought you could only sign him for the 6 mil. I am sure he would stay with his brother for 32 mil over the next 3 years. I didn't that that was an option that the pacers could or would use as that ends up getting expensive next summer with dipo.

Yeah. I described that in our other thread but it may have been missed. You can always use the best exception available for a player if it allows more money.

As for the cap, we’ve arranged that we can afford to max Oladipo and use the full MLE this year or next, but not both. Worst case scenario, we could dump Lamb next year, and use the MLE both years.

[Scoot McGroot]

Justin is a free agent, lamb has a ACL tear, Pacers don't need to find min for Goga and Sumner they have to prove they can play which they haven't yet. They don't need a consolidation trade of their 2nd string they need a overhaul of the 2nd string. so you have two backup PG in holday and McConnel and Doug. What top 8 rotation guy are you going to get for that package? Now you have 1 very good bench player, where are the other 4 guys coming from?

Players miss 10 games a year, who among those bench players do you see playing 32 min for a playoff team? As you said, the starting 5 are solid, but likely losing Sampson and Justin disseminates an already weak bench with Lambs ACL.

The pacers need two 4s and a combo guard that can play 24 min a game for a playoff team. Aaron and McConnel are the guys you want playing when that combo guy is not playing. and who and how much depends on matchups. They have nice depth at SF with Warren and doug and they have an envious assortment of riches at the 5 with Sabonis and Turner.

The pacers can get a pf for the MLE at 9mil who is a FA.
Michael Kidd-Gilchrist, Millsap, dudley, Marvin Williams, Ersan İlyasova are the ones who come to mind. Maybe a guy like Garrett Temple/Etwan Moore as a combo guard. But these guys are additions to the team you have now, not getting the bottom 6 guys and thinking you can get two top 8 rotational players for them to go along with doug.

1. "Justin is a free agent"

Who they would like to re-sign

2. "Lamb has an ACL tear"

And he will likely be back next season


No sure what your point is. Fact remains that a bench of McDermott-Holiday-Holiday-Lamb-McConnell needs a consolidation


3. "Pacers don't need to find min for Goga and Sumner"

No they don't need to. But they would like to


Again, not sure what your point is. Fact remains that Pacers will needs a consolidation trade, which will allow them to allocate playing time to Goga and Sumner

oh, well if you think Lamb on his first year back is going to be effective you have a point. But to me ACLs require more than a year till the guy is back full steam. and again are they willing to pay justin enough to stay. Wings are the most in demand position in the NBA right now. My point is that they need more than a consolidation they need two better players than those and 3 if Justin does not come back in addition to those guys. None of those guys is a 4, right now you are playing Warren at the 4 more than he should because you have Justin at the 3 backing him up.

If like you said in this post have both Turner and Sabonis as starters who backs up Sabonis, there is no lack of min for goga, just his lack of talent to play those 18 min. Turner slides over to the 5 so know turner can only give 15 min or so at PF.

We actually hadn’t played Warren at the 4 one minute this year until Sabonis was injured in the bubble. Justin Holiday was the 4 throughout the season.

As for Goga, there’s a belief that we can play Goga and Sabonis together due to Goga’s long range shooting and rim protection for stretches too, so essentially it would be a long term trip of Myles/Dom/Goga at the 4/5 with some situational play to get there. Goga having knee issues throughout the season really slowed him down, and it’s hard to project anything right now without a coach and playing style selected for next year.
It’s just really Hard to say that this roster didn’t work and we need to tear it apart when it only played 86 minutes together, total, this year. It was built knowing it would take a year to gel with Oladipo returning, and adding new players overall (Brogdon, Warren, Lamb, JHoliday, McConnell, etc), and promoting a new starter in Sabonis, and assumed that this year would be a mix of results, with plans to truly compete next year. Now, of course, if we answered questions, better to address them ASAP, but who knows if we saw the answers we needed since we didn’t even get to really test our hypothesis.

[100proof]

1. "Justin is a free agent"

Who they would like to re-sign

2. "Lamb has an ACL tear"

And he will likely be back next season


No sure what your point is. Fact remains that a bench of McDermott-Holiday-Holiday-Lamb-McConnell needs a consolidation


3. "Pacers don't need to find min for Goga and Sumner"

No they don't need to. But they would like to


Again, not sure what your point is. Fact remains that Pacers will needs a consolidation trade, which will allow them to allocate playing time to Goga and Sumner

Know what solves that?
A trade of Turner or Sabonis and a bench piece or 2.

Sure, that is something that would work

Which player do you think the Pacers should target for Turner or Sabonis plus a bench piece or two?

Depends on what pieces attached are.

[Wizop]

Fact remains that Pacers will needs a consolidation trade, which will allow them to allocate playing time to Goga and Sumner

Sorry, but I don't understand this. The roster is 15 players (plus w ways). Nate only liked to play 9 but so what.

Sumner got some playing time because he has speed and even stubborn Nate knew sometimes more speed was required. odds of him earning more time are strong particularly if Justin walks.

the game was a little fast for Goga but that often happens with rookies. if he makes a second year jump, he'll earn his playing time. if not, he won't. I don't see the logic of trading away two rotation players for one better one (isn't that what a consolidation trade does?) just to make playing time available for someone who hasn't earned it.

now if you want to trade some combination of McDermott, Lamb, and Leaf for a solid (solid being a dependable rotation player and not an all star) power forward, I get it. and if Justin walks, I get using the roster spot on a 4 rather than a wing.

[Topofthekey]

Spoiler:

Justin is a free agent, lamb has a ACL tear, Pacers don't need to find min for Goga and Sumner they have to prove they can play which they haven't yet. They don't need a consolidation trade of their 2nd string they need a overhaul of the 2nd string. so you have two backup PG in holday and McConnel and Doug. What top 8 rotation guy are you going to get for that package? Now you have 1 very good bench player, where are the other 4 guys coming from?

Players miss 10 games a year, who among those bench players do you see playing 32 min for a playoff team? As you said, the starting 5 are solid, but likely losing Sampson and Justin disseminates an already weak bench with Lambs ACL.

The pacers need two 4s and a combo guard that can play 24 min a game for a playoff team. Aaron and McConnel are the guys you want playing when that combo guy is not playing. and who and how much depends on matchups. They have nice depth at SF with Warren and doug and they have an envious assortment of riches at the 5 with Sabonis and Turner.

The pacers can get a pf for the MLE at 9mil who is a FA.
Michael Kidd-Gilchrist, Millsap, dudley, Marvin Williams, Ersan İlyasova are the ones who come to mind. Maybe a guy like Garrett Temple/Etwan Moore as a combo guard. But these guys are additions to the team you have now, not getting the bottom 6 guys and thinking you can get two top 8 rotational players for them to go along with doug.

1. "Justin is a free agent"

Who they would like to re-sign

2. "Lamb has an ACL tear"

And he will likely be back next season


No sure what your point is. Fact remains that a bench of McDermott-Holiday-Holiday-Lamb-McConnell needs a consolidation


3. "Pacers don't need to find min for Goga and Sumner"

No they don't need to. But they would like to


Again, not sure what your point is. Fact remains that Pacers will needs a consolidation trade, which will allow them to allocate playing time to Goga and Sumner

oh, well if you think Lamb on his first year back is going to be effective you have a point. But to me ACLs require more than a year till the guy is back full steam. and again are they willing to pay justin enough to stay. Wings are the most in demand position in the NBA right now. My point is that they need more than a consolidation they need two better players than those and 3 if Justin does not come back in addition to those guys. None of those guys is a 4, right now you are playing Warren at the 4 more than he should because you have Justin at the 3 backing him up.

If like you said in this post have both Turner and Sabonis as starters who backs up Sabonis, there is no lack of min for goga, just his lack of talent to play those 18 min. Turner slides over to the 5 so know turner can only give 15 min or so at PF.

Yes, they would like to trade some combination of McDermott/Holiday/Holiday/Lamb/McConnell for a quality backup 4

Hence a consolidation trade, trading two or three existing backups for one better quality backup

[Topofthekey]

Fact remains that Pacers will needs a consolidation trade, which will allow them to allocate playing time to Goga and Sumner

Sorry, but I don't understand this. The roster is 15 players (plus w ways). Nate only liked to play 9 but so what.

Sumner got some playing time because he has speed and even stubborn Nate knew sometimes more speed was required. odds of him earning more time are strong particularly if Justin walks.

the game was a little fast for Goga but that often happens with rookies. if he makes a second year jump, he'll earn his playing time. if not, he won't. I don't see the logic of trading away two rotation players for one better one (isn't that what a consolidation trade does?) just to make playing time available for someone who hasn't earned it.

now if you want to trade some combination of McDermott, Lamb, and Leaf for a solid (solid being a dependable rotation player and not an all star) power forward, I get it. and if Justin walks, I get using the roster spot on a 4 rather than a wing.

True. But Lamb being out was also a big reason Sumner got playing time

Yes, trading some combination of the existing bench players for a quality backup forward would be ideal

[Wizop]

True. But Lamb being out was also a big reason Sumner got playing time

Miami's ability to neutralize McConnell also was a part of it although I think we were slow to recognize the issue.

[djFan71]

The bubble and playoffs were the lineup you listed, but with Oladipo as the X. It was fine when teams had nothing to play for and didn’t adjust. It was blown up when we faced Miami in the playoffs.

MIA's really good, though, and have been playing that way all season and Butler is the best player in the series. They blew up MIL, too and up 1-0 on BOS. Do you think the approach is to get Sabonis back and play big? I haven't watched enough games to see how Turner/Sabonis work, so I'm not saying it doesn't. But, it just seems to counter the trend. From the outside in, I'd lean towards picking one or the other and seeing what assets I could get to retool around the other, personally. If your D was acceptable the times Sabonis was on the floor without Turner, I'd stick with him due to the offensive edge. Then try to get as much shooting / secondary shot creation / wing defense back as you can. Obviously, easier said than done. But Turner could get you some of that.

I'm not even saying it to pimp Hayward, since I'd rather resign him or get different pieces than Turner (who I like but don't think we NEED). But, in theory, I love a Brogdon/Dipo/Warren/Hayward/Sabonis lineup. Hayward's a soild on ball defender, and great at team D which is big. Age/injury/salary concerns, sure. But skillset wise that seems perfect.

The team was overall much better with Sabonis/Turner and we think the playoffs would have been much better with Sabonis/Turner than Turner/Sampson.

Our solo team of just Sabonis is one that just attempts to out score others. It’s one that mostly suffers defensively terribly against starting lineups but beats up on bench units.

As for Hayward, he’s really a good player. I agree. The problem is dealing for him obliterates our depth due to his salary. Sure, we can match salary, but it requires a 3-4 player match, and then we are left with replacing those players with just vet minimums AND giving up the use of our MLE due to tax concerns. Turner and Lamb combine for $28m in salary. Add in Leaf, and we’re at just a touch over $32m, still $2m less than Hayward, and now with 2 additional roster spots to fill, adding an additional $3m on vet minimum guys only. Then we’re ultimately filling out almost 5 roster spots with essentially vet minimum contracts, or very close to it. I just don’t see a way to reasonably balance that roster unless Hayward opts our and S&T to Indy for much less than he makes this year, and that’s just unlikely.

Yeah, $/injuries/whatever on Hayward I get. If he wasn't from there, I doubt anyone would suggest it. And I wanna keep him. I was just curious on the Turner/Sabonis debate. I just assumed you'd pick one and try to get assets for the other, but it sounds like the majority of IND fans want to keep both and make it work.

[Wizop]

Yeah, $/injuries/whatever on Hayward I get. If he wasn't from there, I doubt anyone would suggest it. And I wanna keep him. I was just curious on the Turner/Sabonis debate. I just assumed you'd pick one and try to get assets for the other, but it sounds like the majority of IND fans want to keep both and make it work.

a little strong, but I think most of us want to give it a fair test to see if it can work. we could change our minds at the deadline but we want to see what a new coach can do if everyone stays healthy.