Best Player for Oubre + #10?

[Stillwater]

This is the best. There needs to be so much crow eaten on this board from people telling me and other Suns fans that Warren was an empty calorie scoring SF who couldn't shoot or play defense. Where they were right was that he didn't have a lot of value across the league because his +/- numbers were **** playing without an NBA roster.

He was moved for three reasons. The first was to loosen up space to add a loint guard. The second was to flip the roster in favor of shooting. At that time TJ wasn't a proven 3 point shooter. Third, Jones wanted a change of culture. He accomplished all three. He did it in a ham handed way.

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still dont get it... Simons will do the same damn thing after Portland gives him up for a 10th pick in a weak draft and a player that is not the same level of player at the same position as the one they traded for cash lol

Since you don't accept any reasons that people give you and your basketball intellect is superior to everyone (By the way, Oubre was ranked higher than TJ on the latest list of best Sf's), then how about a FLAT NO on the trade between the Suns and Portland, reasons be damned. Good luck with your reasons as to why or what you think otherwise.

PHO is notorious for their bad decisions so why would you think they wouldnt trade the 10th and Oubre for an unproven project

[Fo-Real]

still dont get it... Simons will do the same damn thing after Portland gives him up for a 10th pick in a weak draft and a player that is not the same level of player at the same position as the one they traded for cash lol

Since you don't accept any reasons that people give you and your basketball intellect is superior to everyone (By the way, Oubre was ranked higher than TJ on the latest list of best Sf's), then how about a FLAT NO on the trade between the Suns and Portland, reasons be damned. Good luck with your reasons as to why or what you think otherwise.

PHO is notorious for their bad decisions so why would you think they wouldnt trade the 10th and Oubre for an unproven project

Weather they actually would or wouldn't is secondary, THEY SHOULDNT!

[Stillwater]

Since you don't accept any reasons that people give you and your basketball intellect is superior to everyone (By the way, Oubre was ranked higher than TJ on the latest list of best Sf's), then how about a FLAT NO on the trade between the Suns and Portland, reasons be damned. Good luck with your reasons as to why or what you think otherwise.

PHO is notorious for their bad decisions so why would you think they wouldnt trade the 10th and Oubre for an unproven project

Weather they actually would or wouldn't is secondary, THEY SHOULDNT!

unless I am right and Simons is another player shunted and held in check by superstar salary contract players in front of him...
he hasnt been good in his ltd role at all, but when he gets reps he has been better than most are acknowledging. I do actually think there is a good chance he will in a better situation be a solid pro and thats more than I can assume for any unpicked player none of whom we have any idea of will be available or not. if you put Simons in a college setting and he would be a high lottery pick this season easily just based on potential and current skillset.
I would trade the 10th for him in a heartbeat

[HotelVitale]

One thing for sure is the Suns dont know what they are doing at all example : the Suns paid the Pacers to get rid of Warren, while the Pacers used the deal to their advantage to accumulate assets.and their fans have every right to fear the worst... I think to move Oubre knowing he wants to get paid would take the 10th and all it would get them is a little higher floor prospect stuck behind some vets. end of theory.

This is the best. There needs to be so much crow eaten on this board from people telling me and other Suns fans that Warren was an empty calorie scoring SF who couldn't shoot or play defense. Where they were right was that he didn't have a lot of value across the league because his +/- numbers were **** playing without an NBA roster. He was moved for three reasons. The first was to loosen up space to add a loint guard. The second was to flip the roster in favor of shooting. At that time TJ wasn't a proven 3 point shooter. Third, Jones wanted a change of culture. He accomplished all three. He did it in a ham handed way.

I thought the Warren move was pretty surprising and a bad GM call, but I don't think the day after a ridiculous shooting night is the best way to judge him or the org. Warren's 3pt shooting was unknown at the time and it's looking like that's more of a real thing, albeit on pretty low volume. But he was always a tough player to estimate, given how much his value is based on scoring and his huge reliance on jump shooting for that; if he shot more like 35% from 3 this year then his value is suddenly a lot more questionable. (The problem with the dump was that Warren's contract was already really nice for him even at the lower end of his value range.)

I always liked him as an offensive sparkplug and admit he's been progressing more than I expected, I also just don't think him shooting out of his mind in one game is the time for a total reassessment of his value. (Also Stillwater, 'your team made a bad decision in the past' is not a useful argument for why their fans should want to make crappy bargains now, that should be obvious.)

[Fo-Real]

Since you don't accept any reasons that people give you and your basketball intellect is superior to everyone (By the way, Oubre was ranked higher than TJ on the latest list of best Sf's), then how about a FLAT NO on the trade between the Suns and Portland, reasons be damned. Good luck with your reasons as to why or what you think otherwise.

PHO is notorious for their bad decisions so why would you think they wouldnt trade the 10th and Oubre for an unproven project

Weather they actually would or wouldn't is secondary, THEY SHOULDNT!

(yes I quoted myself ), Phoenix knowingly took a few steps backwards this offseason in order to change the culture. Paid someone to take Josh Jackson and De'Anthony Melton (Melton was sacrificed). Tj to gain cap room to get Ricky. Traded down in the draft to come out with Saric and drafted a then pretty hotly contested Cam Johnson, traded with Boston to get Baynes and draft Jerome. Everyone called that offseason the absolute worst, but YALL WERE WRONG!! James Jones has done what he set out to do, our culture is better by leaps and bounds. Even though he was crucified for every move, they accomplished what he wanted, the Suns were fun this year and without suspensions and a really bad run of injuries, we enjoyed these guys for the first time in a loooong time.

[jredsaz]

He didn't play defense at all in Phoenix, though, so no one knew if he could. That was a pretty fair assumption. And it took him most of this season to be usable, defensively, let alone turn into "good" late in the year. He certainly wasn't that in Phoenix, nor when he arrived in Indy. And he didn't have a ton of trade value because Jones wanted back 0 salary, and he wanted it completed before the draft, so there were very few buyers.

Otherwise, the long-range shooting was still a huge question mark this season. He really settled into a 35-36% shooter from 3, but feasting in the mid-range until last night's 9/12 explosion from beyond the arc jumped him to almost 40% on the season from 3. Even then, he's only proven after 2 years of massively improved shooting that he's maybe settling in as reliable from beyond the arc. He had a much longer history of being terrible there.

All thats fine but that backs up my point. He wasn't incapable of being a serviceable defender. He was on a team with a different coach every year actively trying to tank. He showed flashes of good defense often with the Suns. He just didn't have any consistency just like everything else in the franchise. People called him hopeless and it was in large part based on DRPM and DBPM and next to zero actual knowledge.

He turned into a league average shooter like Suns fans predicted he would. Its because he has an amazing stroke. You watch him you knew it would develop.

And absolutely right about the value. He wasn't traded for cash considerations alone. He was traded for $10+ million in cap space before the draft. I would have liked a different method pursued but I don't know what was and was not on the table.

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Maybe. But most of the guys we all know will just turn out great and add massively different parts of their game around 25-27 just never do. We hope forever and it doesn’t happen. When a guy like Warren does, it’s definitely more the outlier, not the norm. And teams will rarely trade on that hope, but usually on what they’ve seen and consider themselves most likely to see.

I think shooting is a skill that can be taught and is successfully taught regularly across the NBA. Lots and lots of player improve their 3pt shooting as their career progresses. Moreover, TJ was always a scorer.

Also, if you actually watched him play as opposed to simply scouting him on Basketball Reference you would have seen plenty of reasons why he could be a good defender.

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[jredsaz]

There needs to be so much crow eaten on this board from people telling me and other Suns fans that Warren was an empty calorie scoring SF who couldn't shoot or play defense.

I think people are overreacting to a 50 pt outburst in an environment that has been producing some pretty silly offensive numbers.

That said, I am one of said people who have to eat a heaping serving of TJ Warren crow. I thought he was pretty capped as a bench scorer whose lack of defense and range would keep him from being a quality starter on a good team.

I was dead wrong,

I argued with you about TJ Warren for years. Vindication!

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[nevetsov]

There needs to be so much crow eaten on this board from people telling me and other Suns fans that Warren was an empty calorie scoring SF who couldn't shoot or play defense.

I think people are overreacting to a 50 pt outburst in an environment that has been producing some pretty silly offensive numbers.

That said, I am one of said people who have to eat a heaping serving of TJ Warren crow. I thought he was pretty capped as a bench scorer whose lack of defense and range would keep him from being a quality starter on a good team.

I was dead wrong,

And I think a lot of Suns fans (including myself) are once bitten, twice shy when it comes to Oubre's trade value because of Warren. Being somewhat validated with the Warren trade with respect to what we suggested his worth was, versus popular non-Suns opinion, to what we are seeing now, I think we project the same value of worth to Oubre. Maybe we'll be right, maybe Oubre will bust out just like Warren has after he's traded. Maybe he won't be traded at all.

[drosestruts]

Coby White and Lauri Markkannen for Oubre and #10?


Suns get two young players in Coby and Lauri that fit around other young players like Booker, Ayton and Bridges

Bulls add a good wing player in Oubre, and gain an additional lottery pick to reshapre the team.


Suns:

Rubio/White
Booker/Jerome
Bridges/Johnson
Markkannen/
Ayton/Kaminsky


Bulls:

Satoransky/Arcidiacano
LaVine/
Oubre/Hutchison
Porter/Young
Carter/Gafford

Plus 2 first round picks

[Scoot McGroot]

All thats fine but that backs up my point. He wasn't incapable of being a serviceable defender. He was on a team with a different coach every year actively trying to tank. He showed flashes of good defense often with the Suns. He just didn't have any consistency just like everything else in the franchise. People called him hopeless and it was in large part based on DRPM and DBPM and next to zero actual knowledge.

He turned into a league average shooter like Suns fans predicted he would. Its because he has an amazing stroke. You watch him you knew it would develop.

And absolutely right about the value. He wasn't traded for cash considerations alone. He was traded for $10+ million in cap space before the draft. I would have liked a different method pursued but I don't know what was and was not on the table.

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Maybe. But most of the guys we all know will just turn out great and add massively different parts of their game around 25-27 just never do. We hope forever and it doesn’t happen. When a guy like Warren does, it’s definitely more the outlier, not the norm. And teams will rarely trade on that hope, but usually on what they’ve seen and consider themselves most likely to see.

I think shooting is a skill that can be taught and is successfully taught regularly across the NBA. Lots and lots of player improve their 3pt shooting as their career progresses. Moreover, TJ was always a scorer.

Also, if you actually watched him play as opposed to simply scouting him on Basketball Reference you would have seen plenty of reasons why he could be a good defender.

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Got to see him a fair amount of times. It definitely wasn't apparent in person, either. In person, he was a terrible and uninterested defender. Maybe some of it is coaching. Maybe some of it is being on a competitor instead of tanking for years. But also, players value and image changes as they show different things over the years. Last year, he had no trade value. His trade value was a team being paid to take him. I'd imagine it's different now, but he didn't go for "under value" last year. At the time he was dealt, his value was proven to be what it was.

I'm also confused as to why a lot of people are saying that Warren was moved to "change the environment". He's a quiet guy for sure, but in Indy, he's fit in seamlessly, and he's been nothing but a hard worker.

[Jay_Sizzle]

Coby White and Lauri Markkannen for Oubre and #10?


Suns get two young players in Coby and Lauri that fit around other young players like Booker, Ayton and Bridges

Bulls add a good wing player in Oubre, and gain an additional lottery pick to reshapre the team.


Suns:

Rubio/White
Booker/Jerome
Bridges/Johnson
Markkannen/
Ayton/Kaminsky


Bulls:

Satoransky/Arcidiacano
LaVine/
Oubre/Hutchison
Porter/Young
Carter/Gafford

Plus 2 first round picks

That's a pretty interesting trade. I would probably do it. I am not a huge fan of White or Lauri, but there is no doubt the pieces fit the Suns well. Shooting at the 4, playmaking/scoring off the bench.

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[drosestruts]

Coby White and Lauri Markkannen for Oubre and #10?


Suns get two young players in Coby and Lauri that fit around other young players like Booker, Ayton and Bridges

Bulls add a good wing player in Oubre, and gain an additional lottery pick to reshapre the team.


Suns:

Rubio/White
Booker/Jerome
Bridges/Johnson
Markkannen/
Ayton/Kaminsky


Bulls:

Satoransky/Arcidiacano
LaVine/
Oubre/Hutchison
Porter/Young
Carter/Gafford

Plus 2 first round picks

That's a pretty interesting trade. I would probably do it. I am not a huge fan of White or Lauri, but there is no doubt the pieces fit the Suns well. Shooting at the 4, playmaking/scoring off the bench.

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White and Johnson were also college teammates and Lauri and Ayton while not teammates are fellow Arizona alum. Could help from a built-in chemistry standpoint.

[jredsaz]

Maybe. But most of the guys we all know will just turn out great and add massively different parts of their game around 25-27 just never do. We hope forever and it doesn’t happen. When a guy like Warren does, it’s definitely more the outlier, not the norm. And teams will rarely trade on that hope, but usually on what they’ve seen and consider themselves most likely to see.

I think shooting is a skill that can be taught and is successfully taught regularly across the NBA. Lots and lots of player improve their 3pt shooting as their career progresses. Moreover, TJ was always a scorer.

Also, if you actually watched him play as opposed to simply scouting him on Basketball Reference you would have seen plenty of reasons why he could be a good defender.

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Got to see him a fair amount of times. It definitely wasn't apparent in person, either. In person, he was a terrible and uninterested defender. Maybe some of it is coaching. Maybe some of it is being on a competitor instead of tanking for years. But also, players value and image changes as they show different things over the years. Last year, he had no trade value. His trade value was a team being paid to take him. I'd imagine it's different now, but he didn't go for "under value" last year. At the time he was dealt, his value was proven to be what it was.

I'm also confused as to why a lot of people are saying that Warren was moved to "change the environment". He's a quiet guy for sure, but in Indy, he's fit in seamlessly, and he's been nothing but a hard worker.

He had some trade value. The Suns also paid that 2nd for cap space. Had they been willing to take back money they would have received something of value in return. Not much. But some.

Also change of environment was incredibly important for him. He checked out in Phoenix. The constant tanking and turnover wore on that dude particularly.

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[jredsaz]

Coby White and Lauri Markkannen for Oubre and #10?


Suns get two young players in Coby and Lauri that fit around other young players like Booker, Ayton and Bridges

Bulls add a good wing player in Oubre, and gain an additional lottery pick to reshapre the team.


Suns:

Rubio/White
Booker/Jerome
Bridges/Johnson
Markkannen/
Ayton/Kaminsky


Bulls:

Satoransky/Arcidiacano
LaVine/
Oubre/Hutchison
Porter/Young
Carter/Gafford

Plus 2 first round picks

I think the Suns jump at that. Honestly, think James Jones would prefer Satoransky to White which IMO would make the deal more enticing for Chicago.

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[drosestruts]

Coby White and Lauri Markkannen for Oubre and #10?


Suns get two young players in Coby and Lauri that fit around other young players like Booker, Ayton and Bridges

Bulls add a good wing player in Oubre, and gain an additional lottery pick to reshapre the team.


Suns:

Rubio/White
Booker/Jerome
Bridges/Johnson
Markkannen/
Ayton/Kaminsky


Bulls:

Satoransky/Arcidiacano
LaVine/
Oubre/Hutchison
Porter/Young
Carter/Gafford

Plus 2 first round picks

I think the Suns jump at that. Honestly, think James Jones would prefer Satoransky to White which IMO would make the deal more enticing for Chicago.

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Would happily swap White for Sato if that's what the Suns preferred.

[jredsaz]

Coby White and Lauri Markkannen for Oubre and #10?


Suns get two young players in Coby and Lauri that fit around other young players like Booker, Ayton and Bridges

Bulls add a good wing player in Oubre, and gain an additional lottery pick to reshapre the team.


Suns:

Rubio/White
Booker/Jerome
Bridges/Johnson
Markkannen/
Ayton/Kaminsky


Bulls:

Satoransky/Arcidiacano
LaVine/
Oubre/Hutchison
Porter/Young
Carter/Gafford

Plus 2 first round picks

I think the Suns jump at that. Honestly, think James Jones would prefer Satoransky to White which IMO would make the deal more enticing for Chicago.

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Would happily swap White for Sato if that's what the Suns preferred.

I just think the Suns are in win now mode. Thats been James Jones mantra this whole time. Figure its Sato that provides that. But adding White would create significant space for free agents.

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[Crives]

I think the Suns jump at that. Honestly, think James Jones would prefer Satoransky to White which IMO would make the deal more enticing for Chicago.

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Would happily swap White for Sato if that's what the Suns preferred.

I just think the Suns are in win now mode. Thats been James Jones mantra this whole time. Figure its Sato that provides that. But adding White would create significant space for free agents.

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I like the idea of a Coby White and Cam reunion.

I would have a hard time turning down Oubre + 10 for White + Lauri

[Fo-Real]

Would happily swap White for Sato if that's what the Suns preferred.

I just think the Suns are in win now mode. Thats been James Jones mantra this whole time. Figure its Sato that provides that. But adding White would create significant space for free agents.

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I like the idea of a Coby White and Cam reunion.

I would have a hard time turning down Oubre + 10 for White + Lauri

Bro, there is no way in hot ass hell the Bulls trade us Lauri AND White for that.

[drosestruts]

I just think the Suns are in win now mode. Thats been James Jones mantra this whole time. Figure its Sato that provides that. But adding White would create significant space for free agents.

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I like the idea of a Coby White and Cam reunion.

I would have a hard time turning down Oubre + 10 for White + Lauri

Bro, there is no way in hot ass hell the Bulls trade us Lauri AND White for that.

All I'll say is that this isn't the same front office that drafted Lauri or White, so they have no attachment to them. Oubre is so far the best player of the bunch, adding him and a top-10 pick giving you the ability to add two guys this draft that fit your vision. Could be pretty enticing for a new front office.

[Slim Charless]

I like the idea of a Coby White and Cam reunion.

I would have a hard time turning down Oubre + 10 for White + Lauri

Bro, there is no way in hot ass hell the Bulls trade us Lauri AND White for that.

All I'll say is that this isn't the same front office that drafted Lauri or White, so they have no attachment to them. Oubre is so far the best player of the bunch, adding him and a top-10 pick giving you the ability to add two guys this draft that fit your vision. Could be pretty enticing for a new front office.

Would love this trade as a Suns fan. Also, Chicago probably wouldn't have any problem paying Kelly what he'd want-since that's the main reason that's he's even available. I'd also be willing to switch out Coby for another player if the Bulls wanted to keep their young PG.