Turner to the Celtics - How?

[Texas Chuck]

Impressive discussion for the most part in this thread. Really have enjoyed reading all the solid contributions and lack of partisan nonsense itt. This is the kind of dialogue we should all strive for. Props to you guys.

[100proof]

If you guys move Turner perhaps someone like Aaron Gordon would be a good replacement at the PF spot?

[pacers33granger]

If you guys move Turner perhaps someone like Aaron Gordon would be a good replacement at the PF spot?

He would be better there than sliding Warren over, but he's not a rim protector unfortunately. I don't think he's a great fit next to Domas for that reason and because he doesn't have a reliable shot.

[100proof]

If you guys move Turner perhaps someone like Aaron Gordon would be a good replacement at the PF spot?

He would be better there than sliding Warren over, but he's not a rim protector unfortunately. I don't think he's a great fit next to Domas for that reason and because he doesn't have a reliable shot.

Didnt warren look awesome at the PF spot in the bubble?

Or do you prefer Sabonis at PF and put a center beside him who rebounds and blocks shots and ideally spreads the floor on offense?

[Resistance]

If you guys move Turner perhaps someone like Aaron Gordon would be a good replacement at the PF spot?

..............Blocks Per 100 Poss.
..........Turner............Gordon
2014-15......................1.4
2015-16....3.1...............1.5
2016-17....3.4...............0.9
2017-18....3.2...............1.2
2018-19....4.6...............1.0
2019-20....3.5...............0.9
--------------------------------------
Career.....3.6...............1.1


...............Three Point %......
..........Turner............Gordon
2014-15......................27.1%
2015-16....21.4%...........29.6%
2016-17....34.8%...........28.8%
2017-18....35.7%...........33.6%
2018-19....38.8%...........34.9%
2019-20....34.4%...........30.8%
----------------------------------------
Career.....35.7%............31.9%



The salaries are similar, but Gordon doesn't provide what the Pacers need which is spacing and shot blocking.

[pacers33granger]

If you guys move Turner perhaps someone like Aaron Gordon would be a good replacement at the PF spot?

He would be better there than sliding Warren over, but he's not a rim protector unfortunately. I don't think he's a great fit next to Domas for that reason and because he doesn't have a reliable shot.

Didnt warren look awesome at the PF spot in the bubble?

Or do you prefer Sabonis at PF and put a center beside him who rebounds and blocks shots and ideally spreads the floor on offense?

Warren did look pretty good there, but it was a small sample and next to Turner who was anchoring the defense.

The times Turner was out usually lead to layup lines for the opposition. We're hopeful Goga can provide rim protection in the future to help that problem but he can't be relied upon right now.

[Resistance]

If you guys move Turner perhaps someone like Aaron Gordon would be a good replacement at the PF spot?

He would be better there than sliding Warren over, but he's not a rim protector unfortunately. I don't think he's a great fit next to Domas for that reason and because he doesn't have a reliable shot.

Didnt warren look awesome at the PF spot in the bubble?

Or do you prefer Sabonis at PF and put a center beside him who rebounds and blocks shots and ideally spreads the floor on offense?

I wouldn't drill down to the level of labeling players centers and power forwards for this discussion. Just collectively call them bigs and Sabonis is a big that needs the other big to provide spacing and be a defensive anchor.

[Wizop]

Didnt warren look awesome at the PF spot in the bubble?

I only remember him playing the SF and I saw every game. Sabonis didn't play a single minute in the bubble forcing us to play Jakaar Sampson a lot at both 4 and 5.

[Scoot McGroot]

Yeah, $/injuries/whatever on Hayward I get. If he wasn't from there, I doubt anyone would suggest it. And I wanna keep him. I was just curious on the Turner/Sabonis debate. I just assumed you'd pick one and try to get assets for the other, but it sounds like the majority of IND fans want to keep both and make it work.

a little strong, but I think most of us want to give it a fair test to see if it can work. we could change our minds at the deadline but we want to see what a new coach can do if everyone stays healthy.

I agree with this. I think we just want to see the starting lineup actually materialize. As Wizop already pointed out (maybe in another thread), but we only had them together on court for 86 minutes this year. But we’re told we have to blow it up already? I think we’re just more willing to see it out until we see something verifiable and consistent.

[Scoot McGroot]

Didnt warren look awesome at the PF spot in the bubble?

I only remember him playing the SF and I saw every game. Sabonis didn't play a single minute in the bubble forcing us to play Jakaar Sampson a lot at both 4 and 5.

Warren player the 4 throughout the bubble and playoffs. He was the 4 in the Brogdon/AHoliday/Oladipo/Warren/Turner lineups.

[Scoot McGroot]

If you guys move Turner perhaps someone like Aaron Gordon would be a good replacement at the PF spot?

As others have said, I think he’s a bad fit. He’s a guy with a pretty unreliable shot, and is really ineffective at anything other than dunking in terms of scoring. Otherwise, in an offensive flow, he seemed to do well playing around the elbow and helping distribute the offense....which is exactly where Sabonis is best, and much better at it than Aaron. He’s more mobile on the perimeter with 4’s, for sure, but offensively, he’s an absolutely terrible match with Sabonis. Maybe one of the worst in the league when you add in that he’s just not willing to truly sacrifice on offense and just focus on defense, so he kind of compounds the issue there even more.

[Scoot McGroot]

MIA's really good, though, and have been playing that way all season and Butler is the best player in the series. They blew up MIL, too and up 1-0 on BOS. Do you think the approach is to get Sabonis back and play big? I haven't watched enough games to see how Turner/Sabonis work, so I'm not saying it doesn't. But, it just seems to counter the trend. From the outside in, I'd lean towards picking one or the other and seeing what assets I could get to retool around the other, personally. If your D was acceptable the times Sabonis was on the floor without Turner, I'd stick with him due to the offensive edge. Then try to get as much shooting / secondary shot creation / wing defense back as you can. Obviously, easier said than done. But Turner could get you some of that.

I'm not even saying it to pimp Hayward, since I'd rather resign him or get different pieces than Turner (who I like but don't think we NEED). But, in theory, I love a Brogdon/Dipo/Warren/Hayward/Sabonis lineup. Hayward's a soild on ball defender, and great at team D which is big. Age/injury/salary concerns, sure. But skillset wise that seems perfect.

The team was overall much better with Sabonis/Turner and we think the playoffs would have been much better with Sabonis/Turner than Turner/Sampson.

Our solo team of just Sabonis is one that just attempts to out score others. It’s one that mostly suffers defensively terribly against starting lineups but beats up on bench units.

As for Hayward, he’s really a good player. I agree. The problem is dealing for him obliterates our depth due to his salary. Sure, we can match salary, but it requires a 3-4 player match, and then we are left with replacing those players with just vet minimums AND giving up the use of our MLE due to tax concerns. Turner and Lamb combine for $28m in salary. Add in Leaf, and we’re at just a touch over $32m, still $2m less than Hayward, and now with 2 additional roster spots to fill, adding an additional $3m on vet minimum guys only. Then we’re ultimately filling out almost 5 roster spots with essentially vet minimum contracts, or very close to it. I just don’t see a way to reasonably balance that roster unless Hayward opts our and S&T to Indy for much less than he makes this year, and that’s just unlikely.

Yeah, $/injuries/whatever on Hayward I get. If he wasn't from there, I doubt anyone would suggest it. And I wanna keep him. I was just curious on the Turner/Sabonis debate. I just assumed you'd pick one and try to get assets for the other, but it sounds like the majority of IND fans want to keep both and make it work.

I think we’re willing to move on if an opportunity comes up. I don’t think we’re in “we absolutely must move one ASAP for whatever we can get” mode.

As for finances, yeah, Gordon to Indy would be much more attractive if he said “man, I want to play in Indy so much, I’ll opt out and agree to a S&T there for 4/72 (Turner’s deal)”, which we all agree just isn’t happening It’s just really tough to build a roster fully out of swapping a key $17.5m a year guy for a potentially key $34m guy.

[djFan71]

Spoiler:

The team was overall much better with Sabonis/Turner and we think the playoffs would have been much better with Sabonis/Turner than Turner/Sampson.

Our solo team of just Sabonis is one that just attempts to out score others. It’s one that mostly suffers defensively terribly against starting lineups but beats up on bench units.

As for Hayward, he’s really a good player. I agree. The problem is dealing for him obliterates our depth due to his salary. Sure, we can match salary, but it requires a 3-4 player match, and then we are left with replacing those players with just vet minimums AND giving up the use of our MLE due to tax concerns. Turner and Lamb combine for $28m in salary. Add in Leaf, and we’re at just a touch over $32m, still $2m less than Hayward, and now with 2 additional roster spots to fill, adding an additional $3m on vet minimum guys only. Then we’re ultimately filling out almost 5 roster spots with essentially vet minimum contracts, or very close to it. I just don’t see a way to reasonably balance that roster unless Hayward opts our and S&T to Indy for much less than he makes this year, and that’s just unlikely.

Yeah, $/injuries/whatever on Hayward I get. If he wasn't from there, I doubt anyone would suggest it. And I wanna keep him. I was just curious on the Turner/Sabonis debate. I just assumed you'd pick one and try to get assets for the other, but it sounds like the majority of IND fans want to keep both and make it work.

I think we’re willing to move on if an opportunity comes up. I don’t think we’re in “we absolutely must move one ASAP for whatever we can get” mode.

As for finances, yeah, Gordon to Indy would be much more attractive if he said “man, I want to play in Indy so much, I’ll opt out and agree to a S&T there for 4/72 (Turner’s deal)”, which we all agree just isn’t happening It’s just really tough to build a roster fully out of swapping a key $17.5m a year guy for a potentially key $34m guy.

Make sense. On Hayward, you'd have to swallow that first year (or be some 3 team with cap space due to S&T from BOS end). But, if the "man I want to play in Indy" part is true, I could see something like a 2-3 year extension in the $20M/yr or less range tacked on, which could be good value once you get past next year. It's what I'm hoping he agrees to with BOS (or a resigin ~4/$100Mish to help us duck the tax for 1 more year).

[Resistance]

Playing out the final year of his contract with a followup much smaller contract versus opting out and signing for a still hefty deal for a #3 type of player.

...........................2020-21...........2021-22..........2022-23..........2023-24.............Total...
Gordon Hayward....$34,187,085......$16,000,000.....$16,000,000....$16,000,000.....$82,187,085

Gordon Hayward....$20,000,000......$20,000,000.....$20,000,000....$20,000,000.....$80,000,000

[djFan71]

Playing out the final year of his contract with a followup much smaller contract versus opting out and signing for a still hefty deal for a #3 type of player.

...........................2020-21...........2021-22..........2022-23..........2023-24.............Total...
Gordon Hayward....$34,187,085......$16,000,000.....$16,000,000....$16,000,000.....$82,187,085

Gordon Hayward....$20,000,000......$20,000,000.....$20,000,000....$20,000,000.....$80,000,000

If Hayward has a season close to what he had this year next year and stay healthy, he'd get a lot more on the open market. Signing now eliminates that risk for him and assumes injury risk for the team and, but I think you gotta be closer to $90M total for the 4 years on the low end.

[patman66]

Playing out the final year of his contract with a followup much smaller contract versus opting out and signing for a still hefty deal for a #3 type of player.

...........................2020-21...........2021-22..........2022-23..........2023-24.............Total...
Gordon Hayward....$34,187,085......$16,000,000.....$16,000,000....$16,000,000.....$82,187,085

Gordon Hayward....$20,000,000......$20,000,000.....$20,000,000....$20,000,000.....$80,000,000

If Hayward has a season close to what he had this year next year and stay healthy, he'd get a lot more on the open market. Signing now eliminates that risk for him and assumes injury risk for the team and, but I think you gotta be closer to $90M total for the 4 years on the low end.

yeah, if we want him to cut his first year pay by 10 mill he is going to want at min 4/100, but i think he gets jaylen brown contract just to pacify him.

[Scoot McGroot]

Spoiler:

Yeah, $/injuries/whatever on Hayward I get. If he wasn't from there, I doubt anyone would suggest it. And I wanna keep him. I was just curious on the Turner/Sabonis debate. I just assumed you'd pick one and try to get assets for the other, but it sounds like the majority of IND fans want to keep both and make it work.

I think we’re willing to move on if an opportunity comes up. I don’t think we’re in “we absolutely must move one ASAP for whatever we can get” mode.

As for finances, yeah, Gordon to Indy would be much more attractive if he said “man, I want to play in Indy so much, I’ll opt out and agree to a S&T there for 4/72 (Turner’s deal)”, which we all agree just isn’t happening It’s just really tough to build a roster fully out of swapping a key $17.5m a year guy for a potentially key $34m guy.

Make sense. On Hayward, you'd have to swallow that first year (or be some 3 team with cap space due to S&T from BOS end). But, if the "man I want to play in Indy" part is true, I could see something like a 2-3 year extension in the $20M/yr or less range tacked on, which could be good value once you get past next year. It's what I'm hoping he agrees to with BOS (or a resigin ~4/$100Mish to help us duck the tax for 1 more year).

The problem is, the massive gap means we simply can’t “just get to the next year”, as we’d have to deal (because of luxury tax) essentially 5 roster spots that would only be replaced with Hayward and vet minimums. We’d lose out on the ability to dump any salary (the only guys over vet min/rookie salaries would be the starting 5 and Doug McDermott). If he’d take a cheap extension the next summer, we’d already have thrown away an entire offseason of team building (trades and signings) to commit to enter a summer with two of our key 5 guys unrestricted free agents. It’s just not feasible.

[Scoot McGroot]

Playing out the final year of his contract with a followup much smaller contract versus opting out and signing for a still hefty deal for a #3 type of player.

...........................2020-21...........2021-22..........2022-23..........2023-24.............Total...
Gordon Hayward....$34,187,085......$16,000,000.....$16,000,000....$16,000,000.....$82,187,085

Gordon Hayward....$20,000,000......$20,000,000.....$20,000,000....$20,000,000.....$80,000,000

If Hayward has a season close to what he had this year next year and stay healthy, he'd get a lot more on the open market. Signing now eliminates that risk for him and assumes injury risk for the team and, but I think you gotta be closer to $90M total for the 4 years on the low end.

yeah, if we want him to cut his first year pay by 10 mill he is going to want at min 4/100, but i think he gets jaylen brown contract just to pacify him.

Sure, but I don’t think he’s going to opt out or extend. Teams are going to be absolutely nervous about extending him without knowing the full ramifications about the cap, and he’s not going to take a pay it without knowing already what he’s going to get long term.

[Resistance]

Playing out the final year of his contract with a followup much smaller contract versus opting out and signing for a still hefty deal for a #3 type of player.

...........................2020-21...........2021-22..........2022-23..........2023-24.............Total...
Gordon Hayward....$34,187,085......$16,000,000.....$16,000,000....$16,000,000.....$82,187,085

Gordon Hayward....$20,000,000......$20,000,000.....$20,000,000....$20,000,000.....$80,000,000

If Hayward has a season close to what he had this year next year and stay healthy, he'd get a lot more on the open market. Signing now eliminates that risk for him and assumes injury risk for the team and, but I think you gotta be closer to $90M total for the 4 years on the low end.

I have very modest expectations for the salary cap with 2020-21 roughly unchanged and 2021-22 having slight growth, I find it difficult to project a 4/$90 million deal for Hayward because that is a lot of salary for a player that is likely to be classified as a #3 or #4 type of player.

The numbers can be shifted as necessary, but here is a 4/$90 million deal for Hayward.

...........................2020-21...........2021-22..........2022-23..........2023-24.............Total...
Gordon Hayward...$21,000,000......$22,000,000.....$23,000,000.....$24,000,000......$90,000,000



Will Boston sign him to a 3/$69 million deal in summer 2021 if he plays out his exisitng contract?

...........................2020-21...........2021-22..........2022-23..........2023-24.............Total...
Gordon Hayward....$34,187,085.....$22,000,000.....$23,000,000.....$24,000,000....$103,187,085

[djFan71]

Spoiler:

I think we’re willing to move on if an opportunity comes up. I don’t think we’re in “we absolutely must move one ASAP for whatever we can get” mode.

As for finances, yeah, Gordon to Indy would be much more attractive if he said “man, I want to play in Indy so much, I’ll opt out and agree to a S&T there for 4/72 (Turner’s deal)”, which we all agree just isn’t happening It’s just really tough to build a roster fully out of swapping a key $17.5m a year guy for a potentially key $34m guy.

Make sense. On Hayward, you'd have to swallow that first year (or be some 3 team with cap space due to S&T from BOS end). But, if the "man I want to play in Indy" part is true, I could see something like a 2-3 year extension in the $20M/yr or less range tacked on, which could be good value once you get past next year. It's what I'm hoping he agrees to with BOS (or a resigin ~4/$100Mish to help us duck the tax for 1 more year).

The problem is, the massive gap means we simply can’t “just get to the next year”, as we’d have to deal (because of luxury tax) essentially 5 roster spots that would only be replaced with Hayward and vet minimums. We’d lose out on the ability to dump any salary (the only guys over vet min/rookie salaries would be the starting 5 and Doug McDermott). If he’d take a cheap extension the next summer, we’d already have thrown away an entire offseason of team building (trades and signings) to commit to enter a summer with two of our key 5 guys unrestricted free agents. It’s just not feasible.

I was assuming you'd be dumping McDermott and/or Leaf in the Hayward trade as well. But, yeah, I still don't think it's a good move for you guys. Did you see the Sabonis for OG/Powell idea in the other thread? Even if not that one per se, that's more the type of trades I'd look for on your end. Pick a center, get some young wing talent.