Ben Simmons Containment Thread Take 3

[Myth]

Drop even slightly below 20 ppg and there are a bunch of them. But even sticking at 20 ppg, you have a guy like Kevin Martin, who not only gave you 20 ppg every night, he did it far more efficiently and relative to era cost less money.

I know you don't think of Kevin Martin as some great player.

So you had to go back a decade to find a guy that fits that. Kind of shows how few exceptions there are to non-all-stars that put up scoring numbers like that.

I honestly didn't want to spend the time on the exercise. But I could immediately add Jamal Crawford, Jason Terry, Lou Williams, Mike Conley(I know he was finally an all-star last year), Evan Fournier, Andrew Wiggins, Gallo, Tobias if you want some more modern examples.

The point is an inefficient 20 ppg isn't all-star worthy automatically. In fact there hasn't been a single year of CJ's career where I thought that guy needs to be an all-star.

I never said 20ppg was automatically all-star worthy (I also agree that he has never deserved the all-star nod), but it typically shows somebody is close when they can do that year after year. Crawford has passed 20ppg once. Jason Terry never. Lou twice. Conley twice. CJ has done it 6 years in a row, which is still 1 more time above 20ppg than all those guys in your initial list combined. Yes, it is an arbitrary number ultimately and I'm not even trying to claim he is better than those guys, but again, it shows that he isn't your run of the mill role player.

[Myth]

Malik Beasley has averaged 20 a game since he started getting 30 minutes a night (which is a few minutes less a night than CJ requires to get his 20 on more shots). He is also five years younger and makes half of CJ.

So how much would you add to McCollum to get Beasley?

Beasley (almost) doing it for 50 games is not quite the same consistency as I was referring to as 6 years in a row for CJ.

Beasley started doing it at age 23. McCollum average 6.8 PPG in his age 23 season. Seems like your dinging Beasley for not having the same track record because he is much younger where I think the fact that he is much younger would fairly be characterized as a plus when it comes to value.

I'm saying he hasn't proven himself to be able to do that consistently. I wasn't talking about his value.

[BullyKing]

Beasley (almost) doing it for 50 games is not quite the same consistency as I was referring to as 6 years in a row for CJ.

Beasley started doing it at age 23. McCollum average 6.8 PPG in his age 23 season. Seems like your dinging Beasley for not having the same track record because he is much younger where I think the fact that he is much younger would fairly be characterized as a plus when it comes to value.

I'm saying he hasn't proven himself to be able to do that consistently. I wasn't talking about his value.

Well let me just ask then: Do you think McCollum is more valuable than Beasley?

[Texas Chuck]

it shows that he isn't your run of the mill role player.

I don't think he is either. I think he is a good starter.

Never in any of these debates have I ever said CJ isn't a good player. He is a good player. I just don't think he's a great one and he makes star money so that really deflates his trade value for me.

[Myth]

Beasley started doing it at age 23. McCollum average 6.8 PPG in his age 23 season. Seems like your dinging Beasley for not having the same track record because he is much younger where I think the fact that he is much younger would fairly be characterized as a plus when it comes to value.

I'm saying he hasn't proven himself to be able to do that consistently. I wasn't talking about his value.

Well let me just ask then: Do you think McCollum is more valuable than Beasley?

No, I don't. I honestly haven't watched much of him in the last year, but based on numbers, age, and contract, I would say Beasley seems more valuable. Especially if he is a better defender. But since I haven't followed Beasley closely, I can't speak to who a team with a championship window in the next 1-2 years would prefer during that time, but that team would have a pretty good idea what CJ will bring because of that consistency from year to year.

[Myth]

it shows that he isn't your run of the mill role player.

I don't think he is either. I think he is a good starter.

Never in any of these debates have I ever said CJ isn't a good player. He is a good player. I just don't think he's a great one and he makes star money so that really deflates his trade value for me.

I know you never said he isn't a good player, but you did say he is closer to a role player than an all-star, and I was showing how close he is to an all-star.

[Texas Chuck]

it shows that he isn't your run of the mill role player.

I don't think he is either. I think he is a good starter.

Never in any of these debates have I ever said CJ isn't a good player. He is a good player. I just don't think he's a great one and he makes star money so that really deflates his trade value for me.

I know you never said he isn't a good player, but you did say he is closer to a role player than an all-star, and I was showing how close he is to an all-star.

I do think he's closer to a role player than an all-star because I don't think he's a top 40 player which is my threshold. But that isn't a knock. Lot's of really valuable players are role players. Role player shouldn't be a dirty word.

But we are focusing on the wrong thing arguing what is somewhat semantic. The issue with CJ's value begins and ends with that contract. Portland didn't pay the value they paid for RoCo just because he was a good role player--they paid it because he was a good role player on a great contract. Same thing with the recent trade for Nance. IF those players made $20M each, Portland likely doesn't trade for them at all, but certainly doesn't give up that much value.
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[JRoy]

Beasley started doing it at age 23. McCollum average 6.8 PPG in his age 23 season. Seems like your dinging Beasley for not having the same track record because he is much younger where I think the fact that he is much younger would fairly be characterized as a plus when it comes to value.

I'm saying he hasn't proven himself to be able to do that consistently. I wasn't talking about his value.

Well let me just ask then: Do you think McCollum is more valuable than Beasley?

I do.

He’s a better player and not a knucklehead like Beasley.

Hopefully Beasley can get his head right and realize his potential as a player and a person.

[BullyKing]

I'm saying he hasn't proven himself to be able to do that consistently. I wasn't talking about his value.

Well let me just ask then: Do you think McCollum is more valuable than Beasley?

I do.

He’s a better player and not a knucklehead like Beasley.

Hopefully Beasley can get his head right and realize his potential as a player and a person.

Yeah I do think Beasley's character issues should figure into the equation especially as CJ has absolutely none of those. I don't know how much impact and not sure it makes up the difference in value otherwise but its absolutely a factor.

[Myth]

I don't think he is either. I think he is a good starter.

Never in any of these debates have I ever said CJ isn't a good player. He is a good player. I just don't think he's a great one and he makes star money so that really deflates his trade value for me.

I know you never said he isn't a good player, but you did say he is closer to a role player than an all-star, and I was showing how close he is to an all-star.

I do think he's closer to a role player than an all-star because I don't think he's a top 40 player which is my threshold. But that isn't a knock. Lot's of really valuable players are role players. Role player shouldn't be a dirty word.

But we are focusing on the wrong thing arguing what is somewhat semantic. The issue with CJ's value begins and ends with that contract. Portland didn't pay the value they paid for RoCo just because he was a good role player--they paid it because he was a good role player on a great contract. Same thing with the recent trade for Nance. IF those players made $20M each, Portland likely doesn't trade for them at all, but certainly doesn't give up that much value.
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Don't underestimate how desperate Portland was for upgrades, lol

[Telfaire]

Lavine and Lamb to Philly
Simmons to Indiana
Brogdon and Pacers' 2023 1st (top 9 protected) to Chicago

[Myth]

I'm saying he hasn't proven himself to be able to do that consistently. I wasn't talking about his value.

Well let me just ask then: Do you think McCollum is more valuable than Beasley?

I do.

He’s a better player and not a knucklehead like Beasley.

Hopefully Beasley can get his head right and realize his potential as a player and a person.

Shows how closely I've been following Beasley, lol. I think I vaguely recall character issues being in the reputation, but not enough to consider them when answering the value question. My exposure to Minny has been a couple Blazers games, and highlights of Ant.

[Lovetron Joe]

Well let me just ask then: Do you think McCollum is more valuable than Beasley?

I do.

He’s a better player and not a knucklehead like Beasley.

Hopefully Beasley can get his head right and realize his potential as a player and a person.

Shows how closely I've been following Beasley, lol. I think I vaguely recall character issues being in the reputation, but not enough to consider them when answering the value question. My exposure to Minny has been a couple Blazers games, and highlights of Ant.

Here is some background. Given the number of young players on the Sixers roster, I think they would not make a trade to acquire him.

https://www.si.com/nba/2020/12/22/malik-beasley-pleads-guilty-felony-charge-timberwolves

[JRoy]

I do.

He’s a better player and not a knucklehead like Beasley.

Hopefully Beasley can get his head right and realize his potential as a player and a person.

Shows how closely I've been following Beasley, lol. I think I vaguely recall character issues being in the reputation, but not enough to consider them when answering the value question. My exposure to Minny has been a couple Blazers games, and highlights of Ant.

Here is some background. Given the number of young players on the Sixers roster, I think they would not make a trade to acquire him.

https://www.si.com/nba/2020/12/22/malik-beasley-pleads-guilty-felony-charge-timberwolves

m

I think it would be a mistake for any team not to consider this in any Beasley trade.

[timeaftertime]

Outside of saving money, I don't know why you'd rather have Green/Curry over McCollum. If I were Phili, I would much rather have the on court production of CJ. But then, I do know you have been a notorious CJ hater, maybe to the point of being blinded by the positives he does bring.

CJ being due $100M over the next 3 years is a huge part of why I place minimal value on him. I can get over his lack of defense, his relative lack of efficiency as a scorer, his inability to draw fouls, etc... He is a great shooter, he can create his own shot and that absolutely has value. But when you make $30M and you have those holes in your game, you just aren't that valuable an asset.

Yeah, this is why I think the Wolves have a better chance to land Simmons than many people here think. The Wolves can send Patrick Beverly and Taurean Prince to Philly at a combined $27 million (alongside other assets). They're expensive this year, but both player's contracts are expiring at the end of the upcoming season in addition to them being very solid role players that can help immediately. The 76ers can also land Malik Beasley who has one more guaranteed year (with a team option in the third year), so he essentially is an expiring after this season. Morey can sometimes get too cute for his own good and I could totally see him wanting the cap space and assets to chase Beal, Lavine, or one of the Nets potential FAs while still being competitive this season. If the 76ers trade for CJ, they are locked pretty hard into that "big three" with Tobias and Embiid for the next three years and that group would seemingly not compare favorably to other contenders.

[BoogieTime]

I heard Sacramento is one of the three Cali teams Simmons is interested in (not the Lakers for whatever reason).

I mean if we’re discussing McCollum are Barnes/Hield that far behind? lol

Our picks might be more sought after

[Texas Chuck]

I heard Sacramento is one of the three Cali teams Simmons is interested in (not the Lakers for whatever reason).

There is no path to the Lakers even if there was mutual interest. No way to match the money and the Lakers don't have much in trade assets.

Kings have opportunity for Simmons and options for Philly.

Just a much more logical destination. And if part of Simmons issue has really been mental, a nice bonus to go to a franchise with zero expectations and even making the play-in would be regarded as massive success regardless of results.

But I don't think Buddy is the right salary basis. I think Barnes is. And the Kings probably would like to keep Buddy's shooting if they added Simmons. He becomes a much more viable player in that scenario.

[Lovetron Joe]

I heard Sacramento is one of the three Cali teams Simmons is interested in (not the Lakers for whatever reason).

There is no path to the Lakers even if there was mutual interest. No way to match the money and the Lakers don't have much in trade assets.

Kings have opportunity for Simmons and options for Philly.

Just a much more logical destination. And if part of Simmons issue has really been mental, a nice bonus to go to a franchise with zero expectations and even making the play-in would be regarded as massive success regardless of results.

But I don't think Buddy is the right salary basis. I think Barnes is. And the Kings probably would like to keep Buddy's shooting if they added Simmons. He becomes a much more viable player in that scenario.

Without Haliburton or Fox it is difficult to see the Sixers making a trade with the Kings.

[MoneyTalks41890]

Harris for CJ
Barnes, Mitchell, 2 1sts for Simmons

[Texas Chuck]

Without Haliburton or Fox it is difficult to see the Sixers making a trade with the Kings.

Just means it needs a 3rd team really. They have the value for sure if they are willing to add enough picks--would be a matter of diverting some of that future value to get a piece Philly wants.