CHA/UTA/CLE/PHI

[eliasrapp98]

No. The onus is on you to prove me wrong. I did my research to support my argument.

Me: "Varejao tremendously helped the Cavs win. Look at these stats."

You: "The schedule was PROBABLY easier after he came back."

Notice how you used my argument that I used with Hartfordwhalers, but didn't actually prove that it happened?

You're going to have to step your game up.

To be fair, you actually supported my argument that blindly looking at if a team wins is one of the dumber ways to gauge if a single player contributes to winning.

I mean, it was funny watching you do it by being sarcastic about a season 5 years ago, but I appreciate the reinforcement that something like the quality of a team's bench might effect its winning percentage.

You mentioned that in 2012-2013, the Cavs won 20% of their games with Varejao and won 33% of them without him.

You're ignoring these facts:

The Cavs started the season with 11 of their first 16 games on the road.
Ten of those games were against playoff teams from the 2012 season.
Their longest road trip of the year happened during the stretch with Varejao.
The longest homestand happened without Varejao.

Why does it matter that I brought up win percentage stats from 2007? Are we not clear that Varejao has improved? He's a better player than he was 5 years ago. This seems relevant.

The thing about Varejao is that he was always a player who had a big impact on the game without putting up big numbers. He's now putting up big numbers and still being the ultimate glue guy.

I am 100% confident that none of you guys would be trashing the guy's game if he played on your team.

It's amazing how Eliasraps89 criticizes Varejao's defense and I'm the one being attacked by a mod for simply bringing up factual information about Varejao.

Thad has improved since 2007, but you don't see me quoting stats from anywhere before 12-13.

[HartfordWhalers]

No. The onus is on you to prove me wrong. I did my research to support my argument.

Me: "Varejao tremendously helped the Cavs win. Look at these stats."

You: "The schedule was PROBABLY easier after he came back."

Notice how you used my argument that I used with Hartfordwhalers, but didn't actually prove that it happened?

You're going to have to step your game up.

To be fair, you actually supported my argument that blindly looking at if a team wins is one of the dumber ways to gauge if a single player contributes to winning.

I mean, it was funny watching you do it by being sarcastic about a season 5 years ago, but I appreciate the reinforcement that something like the quality of a team's bench might effect its winning percentage.

You mentioned that in 2012-2013, the Cavs won 20% of their games with Varejao and won 33% of them without him.

You're ignoring these facts:

The Cavs started the season with 11 of their first 16 games on the road.
Ten of those games were against playoff teams from the 2012 season.
Their longest road trip of the year happened during the stretch with Varejao.
The longest homestand happened without Varejao.

Why does it matter that I brought up win percentage stats from 2007? Are we not clear that Varejao has improved? He's a better player than he was 5 years ago. This seems relevant.

The thing about Varejao is that he was always a player who had a big impact on the game without putting up big numbers. He's now putting up big numbers and still being the ultimate glue guy.

I am 100% confident that none of you guys would be trashing the guy's game if he played on your team.

It's amazing how Eliasraps89 criticizes Varejao's defense and I'm the one being attacked by a mod for simply bringing up factual information about Varejao.

At the risk of continuing to point out the obvious... I think you are failing massively at understanding what I said then.

I'm not attacking you, and every time you point out all those reasons you are agreeing with my point -- to say Thad isn't good because the Sixers will be terrible next year is as dumb as saying that Varejao isn't good because the team did poorly with him last year. There is pretty clear evidence that both players help a team win (unless you restrict your view just to a win loss record and ignore what goes into that).

I mean, you can keep arguing with me that there are lots of things that go into a win loss record, but lets be really clear -- I am not attacking you, I have been saying you are agreeing with me which seems a pretty far fetched way of an 'attack' in most places.

Now, feel free to carry on the debate about 07-08 stats which seems beyond absurd to me.

[No Offense]

To be fair, you actually supported my argument that blindly looking at if a team wins is one of the dumber ways to gauge if a single player contributes to winning.

I mean, it was funny watching you do it by being sarcastic about a season 5 years ago, but I appreciate the reinforcement that something like the quality of a team's bench might effect its winning percentage.

You mentioned that in 2012-2013, the Cavs won 20% of their games with Varejao and won 33% of them without him.

You're ignoring these facts:

The Cavs started the season with 11 of their first 16 games on the road.
Ten of those games were against playoff teams from the 2012 season.
Their longest road trip of the year happened during the stretch with Varejao.
The longest homestand happened without Varejao.

Why does it matter that I brought up win percentage stats from 2007? Are we not clear that Varejao has improved? He's a better player than he was 5 years ago. This seems relevant.

The thing about Varejao is that he was always a player who had a big impact on the game without putting up big numbers. He's now putting up big numbers and still being the ultimate glue guy.

I am 100% confident that none of you guys would be trashing the guy's game if he played on your team.

It's amazing how Eliasraps89 criticizes Varejao's defense and I'm the one being attacked by a mod for simply bringing up factual information about Varejao.

At the risk of continuing to point out the obvious... I think you are failing massively at understanding what I said then.

I'm not attacking you, and every time you point out all those reasons you are agreeing with my point -- to say Thad isn't good because the Sixers will be terrible next year is as dumb as saying that Varejao isn't good because the team did poorly with him last year. There is pretty clear evidence that both players help a team win (unless you restrict your view just to a win loss record and ignore what goes into that).

I mean, you can keep arguing with me that there are lots of things that go into a win loss record, but lets be really clear -- I am not attacking you, I have been saying you are agreeing with me which seems a pretty far fetched way of an 'attack' in most places.

Now, feel free to carry on the debate about 07-08 stats which seems beyond absurd to me.

Whoa, whoa, whoa. Let's get one thing straight:

I never, ever, ever once said that Thad isn't good.

I especially didn't use the "76ers will suck, so he must be bad" argument.

I think that argument is garbage.

You're confusing me with someone else in this thread. Either that, or you're putting words in my mouth.

This whole time, I have been arguing that Varejao is a better player than Young. That's it. I like Thad Young. But I like Varejao more. I've provided a lot of reasons for why I think this.

As far as the 07-08 stats go, I brought them up in response to your "The Cavs win more without Varejao" argument. The Cavs, with a decent roster, were far superior with Varejao than they were without him. That's the last example I have to use which shows that Varejao helps a playoff team win. They've been rebuilding (i.e., "tanking") since 2010, so it seems kind of silly to bring up winning percentage with and without him.

But since you must, I have more data to provide you with:

In 2011-2012, the Cavs were 10-15 up until February 10th (Varejao's last game). That's a 40% winning percentage. After he went down, they went 11-30 which is a 26.8% winning percentage.

In 2010-2011, the Cavs were 8-27 with him (29.6% winning percentage) and they were 11-36 without him (23.4% winning percentage).

So basically, you mentioned that the Cavs won at a higher clip without him. I provided many reasons for why that actually happened and said that it was a spurious example for you to use.

Next.

[HartfordWhalers]

My comment about the 20% versus 33% winning percentage was solely based upon someone else's argument that next season would prove Thad is bad.

I said and think Varejao is very good.

[No Offense]

My comment about the 20% versus 33% winning percentage was solely based upon someone else's argument that next season would prove Thad is bad.

I said and think Varejao is very good.

Then why are we arguing?

[HartfordWhalers]

That was my point, I kept saying you weren't arguing with me, but supporting my argument (against someone else).

But since you helped me....

Varejao had the 21st highest RAPM in the league, and managed to lead the Cavs in both O rating and D rating last year. There is no need to go back several years to show he is a huge difference maker, it is self evident inthe production he did last year.

[No Offense]

Me? Step my game up? You're the one using stats from 2007.

Now you have two homework assignments:

1. Show me one stretch where Thad Young had a 25 game stretch as good as Varejaos (14, 14 and 3)
2. Show me how the schedule got easier for the Cavs after Varejao returned in 2007.

I'll be waiting.

Not near computer until around 230 today. Ill work on it then.

Well?

[eliasrapp98]

Now you have two homework assignments:

1. Show me one stretch where Thad Young had a 25 game stretch as good as Varejaos (14, 14 and 3)
2. Show me how the schedule got easier for the Cavs after Varejao returned in 2007.

I'll be waiting.

Not near computer until around 230 today. Ill work on it then.

Well?

Sorry. Spent most of my free computer time working on my GMAT.

[No Offense]

Not near computer until around 230 today. Ill work on it then.

Well?

Sorry. Spent most of my free computer time working on my GMAT.

I'm all ears if you want to concede that it never happened.

[tornicade]

Im not much of a stat guy but I found some interesting ones just from last year.
from mysynergysports
Mr Young was giving up a respectable .86 Point per play ,Anderson Varejao was giving up .71 PPP in 2013
Although anderson had a smaller sample the results are consistent with Varejao over the years and Outstanding considering the Team defense he was playing on.
Youngs opponents in Isolation shot 37.5%. Anderson counterparts shot 23%
Overall Youngs opponents shot 40.6 % Andersons 32.6%. Once again even though a small sample size its an 8 % difference. Thats huge

Taking a quick gander over at 82 games.com
Young played 2% of his teams minutes at Center and player 64% of his team minutes at pf.
Anderson is even a better defender against power forwards. Thaddeues gets ate up when matched up on centers.

AV can start at either PF or Center. Start Thad at center and your in for alot of pain.

If you need someone to post up or take advantage of jru holdiay creating open dunks for you. Thad is the man. everything else related to basketball AV is the guy.

Overall offensively Andy was rated at .91 Thad had a .99. Im not even going to go into rebounding or Game IQ.

as far as the OP trade goes. The Cavs have the number 1 and a number 4 pick at power forward and for the most part have completed their build and now are in the stage to development the talented core they have or leverage them other pieces.

76ers however are young and in the early stages of a new build. zero sense to trade a young talent for an experienced veteran.

[HartfordWhalers]

Im not much of a stat guy but I found some interesting ones just from last year.
from mysynergysports
Mr Young was giving up a respectable .86 Point per play ,Anderson Varejao was giving up .71 PPP in 2013
Although anderson had a smaller sample the results are consistent with Varejao over the years and Outstanding considering the Team defense he was playing on.
Youngs opponents in Isolation shot 37.5%. Anderson counterparts shot 23%
Overall Youngs opponents shot 40.6 % Andersons 32.6%. Once again even though a small sample size its an 8 % difference. Thats huge

Taking a quick gander over at 82 games.com
Young played 2% of his teams minutes at Center and player 64% of his team minutes at pf.
Anderson is even a better defender against power forwards. Thaddeues gets ate up when matched up on centers.

AV can start at either PF or Center. Start Thad at center and your in for alot of pain.

If you need someone to post up or take advantage of jru holdiay creating open dunks for you. Thad is the man. everything else related to basketball AV is the guy.

Overall offensively Andy was rated at .91 Thad had a .99. Im not even going to go into rebounding or Game IQ.

as far as the OP trade goes. The Cavs have the number 1 and a number 4 pick at power forward and for the most part have completed their build and now are in the stage to development the talented core they have or leverage them other pieces.

76ers however are young and in the early stages of a new build. zero sense to trade a young talent for an experienced veteran.

If anyone needs 82games to say Thad shouldn't play center, it has now been confirmed.

[tornicade]

Im not much of a stat guy but I found some interesting ones just from last year.
from mysynergysports
Mr Young was giving up a respectable .86 Point per play ,Anderson Varejao was giving up .71 PPP in 2013
Although anderson had a smaller sample the results are consistent with Varejao over the years and Outstanding considering the Team defense he was playing on.
Youngs opponents in Isolation shot 37.5%. Anderson counterparts shot 23%
Overall Youngs opponents shot 40.6 % Andersons 32.6%. Once again even though a small sample size its an 8 % difference. Thats huge

Taking a quick gander over at 82 games.com
Young played 2% of his teams minutes at Center and player 64% of his team minutes at pf.
Anderson is even a better defender against power forwards. Thaddeues gets ate up when matched up on centers.

AV can start at either PF or Center. Start Thad at center and your in for alot of pain.

If you need someone to post up or take advantage of jru holdiay creating open dunks for you. Thad is the man. everything else related to basketball AV is the guy.

Overall offensively Andy was rated at .91 Thad had a .99. Im not even going to go into rebounding or Game IQ.

as far as the OP trade goes. The Cavs have the number 1 and a number 4 pick at power forward and for the most part have completed their build and now are in the stage to development the talented core they have or leverage them other pieces.

76ers however are young and in the early stages of a new build. zero sense to trade a young talent for an experienced veteran.

If anyone needs 82games to say Thad shouldn't play center, it has now been confirmed.

Theres alot of obvious things in this thread that shouldn't need stats to support then again people have said for year that Anderson Varejao wasn't a center and he wouldn't be able to hand it as a full time load. We don't see people saying that anymore. AV validated 82games in that regard.

There was also nothing my post indicating that I Needed 82 games to tell me that Thad couldnt play center.

In fact judging by the quality of information being discussed it would seem the audience needed 82games to tell them. Consider it a preemptive strike

[HartfordWhalers]

I wasn't saying you in particular needed it, but Thad is a 3/4. Anyone thinking of evaluating him as a part time center is so far off base that I'm not sure what should be said.

However, we did make it 11 pages without someone thinking that, so we have that working for us. Which is nice.

[tornicade]

I wasn't saying you in particular needed it, but Thad is a 3/4. Anyone thinking of evaluating him as a part time center is so far off base that I'm not sure what should be said.

However, we did make it 11 pages without someone thinking that, so we have that working for us. Which is nice.

That also illustrates perfectly Why Anderson Varejao has a higher trade value and is more valuable to a roster and I also believe Thaddeus plays the three as well as he does the 5. which is why we haven't seen him there for more than blink for more than 2 years.

I would probably put AV in at three before Thad.

Thad is pretty limited to the 4. Philly conceded that along time ago

[HartfordWhalers]

I wasn't saying you in particular needed it, but Thad is a 3/4. Anyone thinking of evaluating him as a part time center is so far off base that I'm not sure what should be said.

However, we did make it 11 pages without someone thinking that, so we have that working for us. Which is nice.

That also illustrates perfectly Why Anderson Varejao has a higher trade value and is more valuable to a roster and I also believe Thaddeus plays the three as well as he does the 5. which is why we haven't seen him there for more than blip for more than 2 years.

I would probably put AV in at three before Thad.

That sounds as smart as quoting Thad's stats at the 5.

[tornicade]

I wasn't saying you in particular needed it, but Thad is a 3/4. Anyone thinking of evaluating him as a part time center is so far off base that I'm not sure what should be said.

However, we did make it 11 pages without someone thinking that, so we have that working for us. Which is nice.

That also illustrates perfectly Why Anderson Varejao has a higher trade value and is more valuable to a roster and I also believe Thaddeus plays the three as well as he does the 5. which is why we haven't seen him there for more than blip for more than 2 years.

I would probably put AV in at three before Thad.

That sounds as smart as quoting Thad's stats at the 5.

Im pretty confident Doug Collins would agree emphatically. Thad doesnt have the speed to hang with the Threes in this league. Even the bad ones. AV is a better perimeter defender. If all my Small forwards fell over with rabies and I had to choose to between Thad and AV to guard Paul George,Batum,Deng,Gay, Carmelo or Lebron james. I would go with AV and stand a much better chance to win.

I also think it important in a debate between Thad and AV to point out that Thad cant play five which really bolsters the argument for AV since he Can play quality starter at both the 4 and five and Thad can only produce at the 4. seems like too signifcant of an advantage to not mention

[No Offense]

Not near computer until around 230 today. Ill work on it then.

Well?

Sorry. Spent most of my free computer time working on my GMAT.

I gave you an extra 5 days. Were you able to find anything?

[the_process]

Why does Thad bring out do much hate? He's not ridiculously overpaid, he's a solid player, yet we have two 100+ threads of Thad bashing ridiculousness. Genuinely curious... oh and Thad can play the 3 I think, Doug Collins scheme from the 1950's is not relevant to modern basketball in any way, shape, or form.

[No Offense]

Why does Thad bring out do much hate? He's not ridiculously overpaid, he's a solid player, yet we have two 100+ threads of Thad bashing ridiculousness. Genuinely curious... oh and Thad can play the 3 I think, Doug Collins scheme from the 1950's is not relevant to modern basketball in any way, shape, or form.

I like Thad a lot. I'm just pointing out that he isn't as good as Varejao.

Eliasraps98 keeps telling me that Thad had a 25 game stretch as good as Varejao did last year and he keeps ignoring the issue when I ask him for proof.

You know, saying that one guy is better than the other doesn't make one a "hater." It makes one a person with an opinion. Some people back up their opinions with facts and others don't. Eliasraps98 falls into the latter category.

[rjgraca]

No, no excuses. We are using your simplified argument and we are sticking with it.

This season will be a true indicator of the value of PER with Young being counted on to be a major option. Antwaan Jamison, similar player to Young, for the most part always had good PERs too and that didn't seem to be much of an impact to the Cavs a couple of seasons ago which I suspect will be what will happen to Young this season where those offensive stats won't seem so impressive.

Sure,we could instead look at things like:
Thad on the court: -0.6 points per 100 possessions.
Thad off the court: -8.7 points per 100 possessions.

But instead, we should look at the Sixers expected win total next season (ignoring that it will obviously include the effects of the rest of the roster), because it will prove he doesn't help a team win?

Also, when trying to prove a player helps a team win, its probably best to find something more recent than 07-08. You know, then you look better when being sarcastic.

Well, talking about excuses. Using a single variable and trying to cover all other variables with it is kind of weak too. An example of this single variable (PER etc.) being a determinate of a teams successful win total (players real value) is as weak as it comes. One stat variable being recited trumps everything in exclusion to other variables in value . Some examples of that single variable covering others in relation to teams success would be good which I provided with Jamison and Young comparison in the PER discussion where we are encouraged to believe that a PER stat trumps all in value.