Free Agency, Rumors, Thoughts in General 2.0

[bondom34]

I think Ball gets between 15 - 20 million. I think Smart does to. Difference is Smart can choose which team he wants to go to. Ball cannot being a RFA.

Checkers is the 1.5 season play with Smart. Chess is the 4.5 year play with Ball. That is what I am saying. Fine and dandy if you disagree. That is what this board is all about. Everyone's opinions that cares to post them.

Its not 1.5 seasons with Smart though. And you've got him locked up at least that long. You don't with Ball, and he's cheaper short term. And Bird rights have value.

Its better to have the cheaper/better player.

Edit: And I get what HW is saying too. But I'd just rather the better player as well. If Ball gets a later first that's my guess for market value. RFA's generally don't have a ton of trade value.

We disagree on one being substantially better than the other also. With Ball's shooting improvement, its pretty much board wide, Ball has helped his value. His FT% and 3PT% have made huge strides this season.

Its no secret, I do not value Smart as much as most on this board do. I do prefer Ball over Smart. I just think Smart is a hole offensively and after 7 years his upside is no longer relevant. What you see is what you get on both ends of the floor. Ball only being in his 4th season is showing some upside.

Smart is a good 6th man. I see Ball as a better potential starter next to Trae. If Ainge is going to move Smart, this is the season. He hew haws around like with Horford and Hayward, he could end up in a similar boat. A player he likes but does not want to pay.

Interesting as Smart rates out a good bit better offensively by metrics I've seen.

And a stronger on ball defender I'd say, which is exactly what Trae could use. Smart being a "hole" offensively just isn't accurate, but OK. Maybe they're similar defensively at best (I'd say Smart is a bit physically sturdier/more capable on ball), but Ball rates out worse than Smart on offense so that's an odd one.

[Buzzard]

Its not 1.5 seasons with Smart though. And you've got him locked up at least that long. You don't with Ball, and he's cheaper short term. And Bird rights have value.

Its better to have the cheaper/better player.

Edit: And I get what HW is saying too. But I'd just rather the better player as well. If Ball gets a later first that's my guess for market value. RFA's generally don't have a ton of trade value.

We disagree on one being substantially better than the other also. With Ball's shooting improvement, its pretty much board wide, Ball has helped his value. His FT% and 3PT% have made huge strides this season.

Its no secret, I do not value Smart as much as most on this board do. I do prefer Ball over Smart. I just think Smart is a hole offensively and after 7 years his upside is no longer relevant. What you see is what you get on both ends of the floor. Ball only being in his 4th season is showing some upside.

Smart is a good 6th man. I see Ball as a better potential starter next to Trae. If Ainge is going to move Smart, this is the season. He hew haws around like with Horford and Hayward, he could end up in a similar boat. A player he likes but does not want to pay.

Interesting as Smart rates out a good bit better offensively by metrics I've seen.

And a stronger on ball defender I'd say, which is exactly what Trae could use. Smart being a "hole" offensively just isn't accurate, but OK.

Wih all the games Smart has missed this year, you have plenty of on/off data to look at for this seasons small sample size of games.

Boston is 1.2 better offensively with Smart off the court. They are -1.0 with him on the court. Small sample size, but I still think he is a horrible offensive player. I have seen to many games where he tries to take over; nothing about him says he should be allowed to do that.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/s/smartma01/on-off/2021

[bondom34]

We disagree on one being substantially better than the other also. With Ball's shooting improvement, its pretty much board wide, Ball has helped his value. His FT% and 3PT% have made huge strides this season.

Its no secret, I do not value Smart as much as most on this board do. I do prefer Ball over Smart. I just think Smart is a hole offensively and after 7 years his upside is no longer relevant. What you see is what you get on both ends of the floor. Ball only being in his 4th season is showing some upside.

Smart is a good 6th man. I see Ball as a better potential starter next to Trae. If Ainge is going to move Smart, this is the season. He hew haws around like with Horford and Hayward, he could end up in a similar boat. A player he likes but does not want to pay.

Interesting as Smart rates out a good bit better offensively by metrics I've seen.

And a stronger on ball defender I'd say, which is exactly what Trae could use. Smart being a "hole" offensively just isn't accurate, but OK.

Wih all the games Smart has missed this year, you have plenty of on/off data to look at for this seasons small sample size of games.

Boston is 1.2 better offensively with Smart off the court. They are -1.0 with him on the court. Small sample size, but I still think he is a horrible offensive player. I have seen to many games where he tries to take over; nothing about him says he should be allowed to do that.

Or we could use a ton of multi year data that all points to him as a plus and Ball as a minus. But when a small sample suits a prior bias it's certainly more likely to be accepted. The Celtics are better with Jeff Teague on court this season too, so I'm sure he's incredibly valuable (except tiny samples of raw on/off are both noisy and not reliable).

Its also a small sample this year but the Hawks offense is significantly worse with Bogdanovich on court. And yet he doesn't seem to be considered a negative. And their defense worse with Collins on court but I'm hearing he's a good defender.

And if you think Lonzo is going to "take over" I'm really not sure you want that.

But he rates out as a negative in a few multi year samples offensively, and Smart a positive. But yeah raw on/off in a few games is pretty meaningless.

[Mike lorenzo]

according to rumors..the Mavs offered Bidirectional sniper Maxi Kleber, in a package for Collins ... also some teams asking for DFS..it seems that the Mavs are really active

[yosemiteben]

Which...what? There's no reporting, really. Otherwise, what role does Graham hold in Indiana? Does he supplant TJ McConnell off the bench as the backup PG? Probably not. TJ is playing great and is absolutely a Nate Bjorkgren favorite. He probably beats out Aaron Holiday in his slump right now, but does he beat out all of Justin Holiday, Jeremy Lamb, and Doug McDermott for minutes? At that point, what's the point of the "upgrade"? I just don't see it as anything other than "Charlotte could deal Graham, and Charlotte also liked Myles Turner, so watch a Graham to Indy deal".

As a Charlotte fan that is incentivized to have Graham be perceived as high value...this is spot on. Devonte would seem to be only a very minor part of any potential Turner and certainly not a primary driver of IND's interest.

[kalenclayton]

Maybe someone else touched on this already, but I found it really interesting. The Haynes’ article this morning mentioned that the Kings offered Marvin Bagley for Saddiq Bey and were turned down (rightfully so). If true, that tells us how McNair is valuing Bagley. My opinion of Bey is very high, so this is a tough one for me to parse through because I don’t know the consensus behind Bey.

[Buzzard]

Interesting as Smart rates out a good bit better offensively by metrics I've seen.

And a stronger on ball defender I'd say, which is exactly what Trae could use. Smart being a "hole" offensively just isn't accurate, but OK.

Wih all the games Smart has missed this year, you have plenty of on/off data to look at for this seasons small sample size of games.

Boston is 1.2 better offensively with Smart off the court. They are -1.0 with him on the court. Small sample size, but I still think he is a horrible offensive player. I have seen to many games where he tries to take over; nothing about him says he should be allowed to do that.

Or we could use a ton of multi year data that all points to him as a plus and Ball as a minus. But when a small sample suits a prior bias it's certainly more likely to be accepted. The Celtics are better with Jeff Teague on court this season too, so I'm sure he's incredibly valuable (except tiny samples of raw on/off are both noisy and not reliable).

Its also a small sample this year but the Hawks offense is significantly worse with Bogdanovich on court. And yet he doesn't seem to be considered a negative. And their defense worse with Collins on court but I'm hearing he's a good defender.

And if you think Lonzo is going to "take over" I'm really not sure you want that.

But he rates out as a negative in a few multi year samples offensively, and Smart a positive. But yeah raw on/off in a few games is pretty meaningless.

I mentioned the small sample size for a reason. Take what you want from it. If you think I will ever believe a shooting guard with a career TS% of .504 is a positive offensive player, you are barking up the wrong tree.

[Buzzard]

Maybe someone else touched on this already, but I found it really interesting. The Haynes’ article this morning mentioned that the Kings offered Marvin Bagley for Saddiq Bey and were turned down (rightfully so). If true, that tells us how McNair is valuing Bagley. My opinion of Bey is very high, so this is a tough one for me to parse through because I don’t know the consensus behind Bey.

In the end there is going to be a few teams that should have took Bey. I had him in the top 15 and a nice sleeper pick.

[bondom34]

Wih all the games Smart has missed this year, you have plenty of on/off data to look at for this seasons small sample size of games.

Boston is 1.2 better offensively with Smart off the court. They are -1.0 with him on the court. Small sample size, but I still think he is a horrible offensive player. I have seen to many games where he tries to take over; nothing about him says he should be allowed to do that.

Or we could use a ton of multi year data that all points to him as a plus and Ball as a minus. But when a small sample suits a prior bias it's certainly more likely to be accepted. The Celtics are better with Jeff Teague on court this season too, so I'm sure he's incredibly valuable (except tiny samples of raw on/off are both noisy and not reliable).

Its also a small sample this year but the Hawks offense is significantly worse with Bogdanovich on court. And yet he doesn't seem to be considered a negative. And their defense worse with Collins on court but I'm hearing he's a good defender.

And if you think Lonzo is going to "take over" I'm really not sure you want that.

But he rates out as a negative in a few multi year samples offensively, and Smart a positive. But yeah raw on/off in a few games is pretty meaningless.

I mentioned the small sample size for a reason. Take what you want from it. If you think I will ever believe a shooting guard with a career TS% of .504 is a positive offensive player, you are barking up the wrong tree.

It's almost like there are other aspects to offense than just pure scoring. Also see Russell Westbrook (though Smart is obviously far far far far far worse offensively) being an elite offensive player who wasn't incredibly efficient.

But yeah if that's the only thing you care about and want to ignore all other data points, cool

[Buzzard]

Or we could use a ton of multi year data that all points to him as a plus and Ball as a minus. But when a small sample suits a prior bias it's certainly more likely to be accepted. The Celtics are better with Jeff Teague on court this season too, so I'm sure he's incredibly valuable (except tiny samples of raw on/off are both noisy and not reliable).

Its also a small sample this year but the Hawks offense is significantly worse with Bogdanovich on court. And yet he doesn't seem to be considered a negative. And their defense worse with Collins on court but I'm hearing he's a good defender.

And if you think Lonzo is going to "take over" I'm really not sure you want that.

But he rates out as a negative in a few multi year samples offensively, and Smart a positive. But yeah raw on/off in a few games is pretty meaningless.

I mentioned the small sample size for a reason. Take what you want from it. If you think I will ever believe a shooting guard with a career TS% of .504 is a positive offensive player, you are barking up the wrong tree.

It's almost like there are other aspects to offense than just pure scoring. Also see Russell Westbrook (though Smart is obviously far far far far far worse offensively) being an elite offensive player who wasn't incredibly efficient.

But yeah if that's the only thing you care about and want to ignore all other data points, cool

He plays on a team that has been to three conference finals. They were good with or without him, because until they lost Hayward and Horford they were a hell of a team. Now more is needed and he cannot provide it.

[bondom34]

I mentioned the small sample size for a reason. Take what you want from it. If you think I will ever believe a shooting guard with a career TS% of .504 is a positive offensive player, you are barking up the wrong tree.

It's almost like there are other aspects to offense than just pure scoring. Also see Russell Westbrook (though Smart is obviously far far far far far worse offensively) being an elite offensive player who wasn't incredibly efficient.

But yeah if that's the only thing you care about and want to ignore all other data points, cool

He plays on a team that has been to three conference finals. They are good with or without him, because until they lost Hayward they were a hell of a team. Now more is needed and he cannot provide it.

He got injured and they promptly lost a bunch of games. And what kind of logic is this.

Heck Hayward was injured plenty. But we're here rating players off PPG and TS%.

[chrbal]

Maybe someone else touched on this already, but I found it really interesting. The Haynes’ article this morning mentioned that the Kings offered Marvin Bagley for Saddiq Bey and were turned down (rightfully so). If true, that tells us how McNair is valuing Bagley. My opinion of Bey is very high, so this is a tough one for me to parse through because I don’t know the consensus behind Bey.

Kings want a decent 1st for Bagley. Thought they could sucker the pistons.

Bagley is a weird guy to value, sometimes it looks like he could be something valuable and sometimes he looks like a Greg Monroe level player

[Buzzard]

It's almost like there are other aspects to offense than just pure scoring. Also see Russell Westbrook (though Smart is obviously far far far far far worse offensively) being an elite offensive player who wasn't incredibly efficient.

But yeah if that's the only thing you care about and want to ignore all other data points, cool

He plays on a team that has been to three conference finals. They are good with or without him, because until they lost Hayward they were a hell of a team. Now more is needed and he cannot provide it.

He got injured and they promptly lost a bunch of games. And what kind of logic is this.

Heck Hayward was injured plenty. But we're here rating players off PPG and TS%.

Hayward played a lot of games last season. The season before that it was Horford. Until this season, Boston always had a efficient vet to help out the young players. I am guessing Ainge thinks Kemba will be next up in that regard.

Expecting that or claiming that of Smart is delusional in my opinion.

[Texas Chuck]

You guys need a containment thread? Or maybe just use PM's? No point if minds aren't open to a different perspective I wouldn't think but I'm happy to give you guys a thread to chop this into more pieces.

[bondom34]

He plays on a team that has been to three conference finals. They are good with or without him, because until they lost Hayward they were a hell of a team. Now more is needed and he cannot provide it.

He got injured and they promptly lost a bunch of games. And what kind of logic is this.

Heck Hayward was injured plenty. But we're here rating players off PPG and TS%.

Hayward played a lot of games last season. The season before that it was Horford. Until this season, Boston always had a efficient vet to help out the young players. I am guessing Ainge thinks Kemba will be next up in that regard.

Last season they were about a + 6 net rating with either/or of Smart or Hayward on court and +9 with both (it was about 5.68 w Smart and 6.4 with Hayward).

There's a lot more to value than a player's PPG and scoring.

And if you want to go to last season's playoffs, Hayward posted a negative on/off and Smart's was the best on the Celtics.

Edit:

You guys need a containment thread? Or maybe just use PM's? No point if minds aren't open to a different perspective I wouldn't think but I'm happy to give you guys a thread to chop this into more pieces.

Dropping it here. Not replying further.

[Buzzard]

He got injured and they promptly lost a bunch of games. And what kind of logic is this.

Heck Hayward was injured plenty. But we're here rating players off PPG and TS%.

Hayward played a lot of games last season. The season before that it was Horford. Until this season, Boston always had a efficient vet to help out the young players. I am guessing Ainge thinks Kemba will be next up in that regard.

Last season they were about a + 6 net rating with either/or of Smart or Hayward on court and +9 with both (it was about 5.68 w Smart and 6.4 with Hayward).

There's a lot more to value than a player's PPG and scoring.

And if you want to go to last season's playoffs, Hayward posted a negative on/off and Smart's was the best on the Celtics.

Edit:

You guys need a containment thread? Or maybe just use PM's? No point if minds aren't open to a different perspective I wouldn't think but I'm happy to give you guys a thread to chop this into more pieces.

Dropping it here. Not replying further.

I agree this is for more general current items. Nice debate though.

[zimpy27]

Bogdan for Rubio could make some sense.

Hawks get a defensive guard to pair with Rubio and they get a shorter contract where Rubio's contract comes off the books when they need to pay Trae and Huerter

[jayu70]

according to rumors..the Mavs offered Bidirectional sniper Maxi Kleber, in a package for Collins ... also some teams asking for DFS..it seems that the Mavs are really active

Hawks declined:

One team that reportedly proposed a deal is the Dallas Mavericks, which was focused on center Maxi Kleber. While the other players and assets included in the deal remain unclear, what is certain is that the Hawks weren’t impressed and turned down the offer.

https://clutchpoints.com/nba-trade-rumors-hawks-insulted-by-mavs-offer-for-john-collins/amp/

[Buzzard]

according to rumors..the Mavs offered Bidirectional sniper Maxi Kleber, in a package for Collins ... also some teams asking for DFS..it seems that the Mavs are really active

Hawks declined:

One team that reportedly proposed a deal is the Dallas Mavericks, which was focused on center Maxi Kleber. While the other players and assets included in the deal remain unclear, what is certain is that the Hawks weren’t impressed and turned down the offer.

https://clutchpoints.com/nba-trade-rumors-hawks-insulted-by-mavs-offer-for-john-collins/amp/

I do think landing Collins or Markkanen to get their RFA rights should be a perfect storm for a lot of teams. Problem is the Hawks are just playing so dang well. Moving and not paying Collins gets harder to justify with every next game.

As bad as the Lakers were depleted, if no Collins the Hawks in all likelihood still lose that game. Trae, Huerter, and Capela had offensive stinkers. Collins and Gallinari won the day.

[Buzzard]

Dallas going for an all SG team I guess.....

The hit they took with Curry is pretty apparent most nights. .

outdated narrative. They could always use more shooting just as any team could, but since the COVID 5 and KP returned, the shooting has been fine. Richardson is the only primary rotation player not shooting well from 3.

Dallas was 10th last season at 36.7 3PT%.
They are 17th this year at 36.3 3PT%.
They are 9th this year in offensive rating at 113.8.
They were 1st last year in offensive rating at 115.9.

Outdated or not, Curry still seems to have been a hit in my opinion. And something that should be taken into context. This hit is despite KP having a career year in efficiency and 3P%. Try and imagine if he was playing offensively like last year.