Thoughts in General, Rumors, etc... 7.0

[Texas Chuck]

Spoiler:

Yet another report that Pacers will trade Turner and Hiled for Westbrook...

Why does this keep coming up?

It seems to me for one reason and one reason only--it benefits the Lakers and costs them nothing of real value. The Lakers think because they are one of the league's glamor franchises they are entitled to treat smaller market teams as farm clubs.

Even if they add protected picks in the future, what will those picks be worth if the Lakers return to power, which the addition of Turner and Hield might well help them do?

Hield is a quality three-point threat. Turner is an elite rim pretector who can also stretch the floor, and in my opinion, is chronically undervalued here by many of RealGM. Some of the trades I've seen proposed for him seem to me to be breathtakingly laughable they are so one sided.

On the other hand Westbrook is a player some have suggested is on the decline and/or too selfish to accept a role that doesn't make him the primary focus on a team. The Pacers are going to suffer short term, but we have the makings of a nice young team that has a ton of potential for growth. Why would we want a grossly overpaid aging veteran on the decline, or one with a bloated ego?

Turner has a year left on his contract. If these young players are as good as I think they can be, that's a year for them to show flashes of what's possible and maybe convince Turner, who is himself relatively young, that it might make sense for him to stay and have some fun if the money is acceptable. And if he doesn't stay, that opens up opportunities for the young bigs the Pacers have, Smith, Jackson, and maybe Goga.

It sticks in my craw that there seems to be this idea we are obligated to rectify the stupid mistakes the Lakers have made. Screw 'em. If they want Turner and Hield immediately so as to make a run at yet another title and ring for James, let them pony up some real value. To me, picks of questionable future value and Westbrook aren't it.

If I'm wrong, and there is some LEGITIMATE reason the Pacers should want to do this, please enlighten me.

Moved this here where it is more appropriate than starting a new thread just to complain about why the Lakers are treated awesome and the Pacers so unfairly.

[oldncreaky]

Whats Bey's value for Detoit? If they feel he is more Harrison Barnes vs Luol Deng and don't want to have to pay him as they would rather pay big bucks for a more impactful player at his position?

Nunn 2 unprotected LAL 1sts for Bey, Stewart.

Pistons punt, could use the 1sts in a later package to fill gaps around their young stars.

Lakers use their last remaining assets to get 2 young players who can be kept long term. Stewart is a poor mans Turner and can be a big body next to AD thru the RS. Bey gives them young legs on the wing. They either buy out WB or just let him expire.

Bey and Stewart are two of Detroit's likely starters, they fit in building around Cade, and are under team control for another 6 years. They're going nowhere.

If the Lakers are really giving up two unprotected 1sts, Detroit should absolutely be shipping those guys to LA. That's a big overpay.

From a value perspective, you're probably right. I'll concede 2 unprotected firsts is a big overpay for Bey and Stewart, neither of which projects to be much more than a solid starter, and we may end up overpaying Bey in a year.

But those picks are 5 and 7 years out, so they don't align with Cade's timeline because Cade will be beyond team control before either of those picks provide anything on court. We've got 3 players who might be solid starters or better on a competitive team: Cade, Bey and Stewart. The rest of the roster is decent vets who belong on the bench, and unproven youngsters in various stages of development. I have high hopes for Ivey, but I once had hopes for Hayes too.

I think the Pistons getting back in the playoffs in 3 years is a realistic goal. We've been in the wilderness for more than a decade, and trading away 2 of your 3 best players for picks that won't play with anyone currently on your roster is a treadmill-in-the-lottery move. Treadmilling as a lottery team pretty much guarantees losing Cade eventually. You don't make that trade even if it makes sense from an ROI perspective.

[Texas Chuck]

I think the Pistons getting back in the playoffs in 3 years is a realistic goal. We've been in the wilderness for more than a decade, and trading away 2 of your 3 best players for picks that won't play with anyone currently on your roster is a treadmill-in-the-lottery move. Treadmilling as a lottery team pretty much guarantees losing Cade eventually. You don't make that trade even if it makes sense from an ROI perspective.

I guess I don't see losing Bey/Stewart as moving the Pistons as far off track as you. Stewart in particular feels easily replacable. And its hard to pass on that much value for Bey for me. I do understand where you are coming from though so if you evaluate those players differently from me....

[oldncreaky]

I think the Pistons getting back in the playoffs in 3 years is a realistic goal. We've been in the wilderness for more than a decade, and trading away 2 of your 3 best players for picks that won't play with anyone currently on your roster is a treadmill-in-the-lottery move. Treadmilling as a lottery team pretty much guarantees losing Cade eventually. You don't make that trade even if it makes sense from an ROI perspective.

I guess I don't see losing Bey/Stewart as moving the Pistons as far off track as you. Stewart in particular feels easily replacable. And its hard to pass on that much value for Bey for me. I do understand where you are coming from though so if you evaluate those players differently from me....

I'm not sure if I value them that highly. As you probably know, I also follow the Raptors, and I'm not sure that either Bey or Stewart make the rotation on a Toronto team that's not a contender, so it's not like I think they are studs. It's about time. I'd probably give a different answer if it was two 2023 picks.

But taking a cold-eyed view of the Pistons roster, they've got one stud: Cade. Bey and Stewart look to be solid starters when they reach their prime, although they may end up as bench pieces. Ivey will be thrown into the starting line-up whether he's ready or not. Noel, Olynyk, Burks and Kemba are backups on a decent team, and out of the rotation on a contender. Duren can't even go to bars yet. All the rest are some version of hopium.

We need to make steady progress to crawl out of the lottery. If we trade Bey and Stewart, who the F are we gonna start? We'd probably end up with Diallo as our second best starter, and I'm not sure I'm kidding. You can't afford to step back when you're at the bottom . . .

[Godaddycurse]

I think the Pistons getting back in the playoffs in 3 years is a realistic goal. We've been in the wilderness for more than a decade, and trading away 2 of your 3 best players for picks that won't play with anyone currently on your roster is a treadmill-in-the-lottery move. Treadmilling as a lottery team pretty much guarantees losing Cade eventually. You don't make that trade even if it makes sense from an ROI perspective.

I guess I don't see losing Bey/Stewart as moving the Pistons as far off track as you. Stewart in particular feels easily replacable. And its hard to pass on that much value for Bey for me. I do understand where you are coming from though so if you evaluate those players differently from me....

I'm not sure if I value them that highly. As you probably know, I also follow the Raptors, and I'm not sure that either Bey or Stewart make the rotation on a Toronto team that's not a contender, so it's not like I think they are studs. It's about time. I'd probably give a different answer if it was two 2023 picks.

But taking a cold-eyed view of the Pistons roster, they've got one stud: Cade. Bey and Stewart look to be solid starters when they reach their prime, although they may end up as bench pieces. Ivey will be thrown into the starting line-up whether he's ready or not. Noel, Olynyk, Burks and Kemba are backups on a decent team, and out of the rotation on a contender. Duren can't even go to bars yet. All the rest are some version of hopium.

We need to make steady progress to crawl out of the lottery. If we trade Bey and Stewart, who the F are we gonna start? We'd probably end up with Diallo as our second best starter, and I'm not sure I'm kidding. You can't afford to step back when you're at the bottom . . .

OOC is ivey not ready to start? I have him 2nd best or is he less ready than i thought

[oldncreaky]

I guess I don't see losing Bey/Stewart as moving the Pistons as far off track as you. Stewart in particular feels easily replacable. And its hard to pass on that much value for Bey for me. I do understand where you are coming from though so if you evaluate those players differently from me....

I'm not sure if I value them that highly. As you probably know, I also follow the Raptors, and I'm not sure that either Bey or Stewart make the rotation on a Toronto team that's not a contender, so it's not like I think they are studs. It's about time. I'd probably give a different answer if it was two 2023 picks.

But taking a cold-eyed view of the Pistons roster, they've got one stud: Cade. Bey and Stewart look to be solid starters when they reach their prime, although they may end up as bench pieces. Ivey will be thrown into the starting line-up whether he's ready or not. Noel, Olynyk, Burks and Kemba are backups on a decent team, and out of the rotation on a contender. Duren can't even go to bars yet. All the rest are some version of hopium.

We need to make steady progress to crawl out of the lottery. If we trade Bey and Stewart, who the F are we gonna start? We'd probably end up with Diallo as our second best starter, and I'm not sure I'm kidding. You can't afford to step back when you're at the bottom . . .

OOC is ivey not ready to start? I have him 2nd best or is he less ready than i thought

I'm very optimistic -- quick, athletic, smart kid, son of a coach, good SL --- but he's proven nothing yet, and he will have to learn how to play the pro game, particularly on defence. Also, I have no clue how he will react to being the second best player on the team for the first time in his life.

[Colbinii]

I guess I don't see losing Bey/Stewart as moving the Pistons as far off track as you. Stewart in particular feels easily replacable. And its hard to pass on that much value for Bey for me. I do understand where you are coming from though so if you evaluate those players differently from me....

I'm not sure if I value them that highly. As you probably know, I also follow the Raptors, and I'm not sure that either Bey or Stewart make the rotation on a Toronto team that's not a contender, so it's not like I think they are studs. It's about time. I'd probably give a different answer if it was two 2023 picks.

But taking a cold-eyed view of the Pistons roster, they've got one stud: Cade. Bey and Stewart look to be solid starters when they reach their prime, although they may end up as bench pieces. Ivey will be thrown into the starting line-up whether he's ready or not. Noel, Olynyk, Burks and Kemba are backups on a decent team, and out of the rotation on a contender. Duren can't even go to bars yet. All the rest are some version of hopium.

We need to make steady progress to crawl out of the lottery. If we trade Bey and Stewart, who the F are we gonna start? We'd probably end up with Diallo as our second best starter, and I'm not sure I'm kidding. You can't afford to step back when you're at the bottom . . .

OOC is ivey not ready to start? I have him 2nd best or is he less ready than i thought

Ivey definitely isn't the 2nd most ready player from his draft with Paolo and Murray being leaps and bounds ahead already [Healthy Chet and probably Jabari given his defensive versatility also ahead at the moment].

I expect him to be pretty bad--poor shooter, not a good passer [think rookie Westbrook] and has been able to dominate at lower levels of basketball with the combination of superior athleticism and coaching assistance most others don't have.

Growing Pains will be the story of his season with flashes of brilliance being significantly outnumbered by "Less than NBA" level of basketball.

Its extremely difficult for young, athletic guards who aren't exceptional shooters or playmakers to be starting caliber as a rookie.

[HartfordWhalers]

I'm not sure if I value them that highly. As you probably know, I also follow the Raptors, and I'm not sure that either Bey or Stewart make the rotation on a Toronto team that's not a contender, so it's not like I think they are studs. It's about time. I'd probably give a different answer if it was two 2023 picks.

But taking a cold-eyed view of the Pistons roster, they've got one stud: Cade. Bey and Stewart look to be solid starters when they reach their prime, although they may end up as bench pieces. Ivey will be thrown into the starting line-up whether he's ready or not. Noel, Olynyk, Burks and Kemba are backups on a decent team, and out of the rotation on a contender. Duren can't even go to bars yet. All the rest are some version of hopium.

We need to make steady progress to crawl out of the lottery. If we trade Bey and Stewart, who the F are we gonna start? We'd probably end up with Diallo as our second best starter, and I'm not sure I'm kidding. You can't afford to step back when you're at the bottom . . .

OOC is ivey not ready to start? I have him 2nd best or is he less ready than i thought

I'm very optimistic -- quick, athletic, smart kid, son of a coach, good SL --- but he's proven nothing yet, and he will have to learn how to play the pro game, particularly on defence. Also, I have no clue how he will react to being the second best player on the team for the first time in his life.

He wasn't the best player his rookie year at Purdue, I have that as the older Trevion Williams.

[Scoot McGroot]

I'm not sure if I value them that highly. As you probably know, I also follow the Raptors, and I'm not sure that either Bey or Stewart make the rotation on a Toronto team that's not a contender, so it's not like I think they are studs. It's about time. I'd probably give a different answer if it was two 2023 picks.

But taking a cold-eyed view of the Pistons roster, they've got one stud: Cade. Bey and Stewart look to be solid starters when they reach their prime, although they may end up as bench pieces. Ivey will be thrown into the starting line-up whether he's ready or not. Noel, Olynyk, Burks and Kemba are backups on a decent team, and out of the rotation on a contender. Duren can't even go to bars yet. All the rest are some version of hopium.

We need to make steady progress to crawl out of the lottery. If we trade Bey and Stewart, who the F are we gonna start? We'd probably end up with Diallo as our second best starter, and I'm not sure I'm kidding. You can't afford to step back when you're at the bottom . . .

OOC is ivey not ready to start? I have him 2nd best or is he less ready than i thought

I'm very optimistic -- quick, athletic, smart kid, son of a coach, good SL --- but he's proven nothing yet, and he will have to learn how to play the pro game, particularly on defence. Also, I have no clue how he will react to being the second best player on the team for the first time in his life.

He only started half his games his freshman year, and was clearly not the highest impact player on that Purdue team (his freshman year, specifically). I don’t think the “being the second best” guy will be an issue.

[oldncreaky]

OOC is ivey not ready to start? I have him 2nd best or is he less ready than i thought

I'm very optimistic -- quick, athletic, smart kid, son of a coach, good SL --- but he's proven nothing yet, and he will have to learn how to play the pro game, particularly on defence. Also, I have no clue how he will react to being the second best player on the team for the first time in his life.

He only started half his games his freshman year, and was clearly not the highest impact player on that Purdue team (his freshman year, specifically). I don’t think the “being the second best” guy will be an issue.

True

At Purdue, my impression was that Ivey could have the ball in his hands as much as he could handle. But Detroit is Cade's team. Didn't watch much college ball last year so I'll defer to you if you did. Regardless, Ivey has a steep learning curve moving up to the NBA level, and I'm not assuming anything about how he will develop, or when.

My main point was that while Ivey is talented, a major part of the reason he'll probably get a starting spot is because he really doesn't have any competition. Other rookies will have to earn a spot, but Ivey has a much lower bar to jump: showing more potential than Killian Hayes.

[Scoot McGroot]

I'm very optimistic -- quick, athletic, smart kid, son of a coach, good SL --- but he's proven nothing yet, and he will have to learn how to play the pro game, particularly on defence. Also, I have no clue how he will react to being the second best player on the team for the first time in his life.

He only started half his games his freshman year, and was clearly not the highest impact player on that Purdue team (his freshman year, specifically). I don’t think the “being the second best” guy will be an issue.

True

At Purdue, my impression was that Ivey could have the ball in his hands as much as he could handle. But Detroit is Cade's team. Didn't watch much college ball last year so I'll defer to you if you did. Regardless, Ivey has a steep learning curve moving up to the NBA level, and I'm not assuming anything about how he will develop, or when.

My main point was that while Ivey is talented, a major part of the reason he'll probably get a starting spot is because he really doesn't have any competition. Other rookies will have to earn a spot, but Ivey has a much lower bar to jump: showing more potential than Killian Hayes.

Purdue played with the ball in his hands a lot his sophomore year, but still played a lot with Trevion Williams as an offensive hub. He played off ball a good amount.

[zimpy27]

I personally think Detroit are getting ahead of themselves. I think they should be fully embracing the trading of non-rookie and non-Cade players for picks while taking on bad money.

[jayu70]

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[psman2]

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Maybe the Bojan rumor is an attempt at motivation to get Johnson to sign long term on a reasonable deal. If Johnson holds out for some amount that the Suns are not comfortable with then maybe they sell him off and bring in Bojan as a short term replacement. Maybe.

[Ell Curry]

Re: Westbrook to Pacers,

I thought it made sense too, but the Pacers have so much cap room they can keep Turner and Hield and still have max cap space I think, and if not they can just move Theis' last year with a couple 2nd rounder to some team that needs a 5 and then have it, and also not sure who the hell is even signing with Indiana for the max.

The more obvious move for the Pacers if they're not keeping Turner is to compete for half the season, move Turner for a bad contract and a first rounder and Hield for some 2nds and an expiring (or first and an ugly deal) and tank the end of the year (so the fans only have to watch 10-15 or so home games of ugly stuff).

I think the better move for them might be to trade for Hayward or Lowry if his wheels fall of this year and eat a bad extra year of contract and get better draft compensation. Turner makes a lot of sense for both Charlotte (Mark Williams is probably a backup center) and Miami (Leonard and Adebayo were a nice pair and Turner can shoot on O and let Bam play as the 4 on D and be a terror rather than rim protecting).

The Lakers tempting part is that Lebron is old and AD is injury prone, so if they do Westbrook for Hield and Turner they don't have cap space next year and if you get an unprotected pick from them in 2027 there's a serious path to it being a top 5 pick (AD's knee giving out and the Lakers not being able to get a new megastar before then, basically).

[K_chile22]

I gotta say, I don't really get the point of trading Crowder for Bogs at this point. He has slid so badly defensively. Why trade a four who can defend and is a passable shooter for a great shooting four that can't defend at all when you already have Cam Johnson? Doesn't save money now or later. Seems to me like Crowder compliments their roster better. Maybe they think Bogs' can create a bit to alleviate the need for some bench guard play?

[Monky15]

Bey and Stewart are two of Detroit's likely starters, they fit in building around Cade, and are under team control for another 6 years. They're going nowhere.

If the Lakers are really giving up two unprotected 1sts, Detroit should absolutely be shipping those guys to LA. That's a big overpay.

From a value perspective, you're probably right. I'll concede 2 unprotected firsts is a big overpay for Bey and Stewart, neither of which projects to be much more than a solid starter, and we may end up overpaying Bey in a year.

But those picks are 5 and 7 years out, so they don't align with Cade's timeline because Cade will be beyond team control before either of those picks provide anything on court. We've got 3 players who might be solid starters or better on a competitive team: Cade, Bey and Stewart. The rest of the roster is decent vets who belong on the bench, and unproven youngsters in various stages of development. I have high hopes for Ivey, but I once had hopes for Hayes too.

I think the Pistons getting back in the playoffs in 3 years is a realistic goal. We've been in the wilderness for more than a decade, and trading away 2 of your 3 best players for picks that won't play with anyone currently on your roster is a treadmill-in-the-lottery move. Treadmilling as a lottery team pretty much guarantees losing Cade eventually. You don't make that trade even if it makes sense from an ROI perspective.

I didn't provide much detail but my thinking is that they may never use the picks but having 2 unprotected 1sts (and cap space from not signing mediocre guys) is a good start for a future package if they see someone become available in the next 24 months for whatever reason (maybe Siakam gets squeezed out or some other player who would end up being an upgrade over Bey/ Stewart).

[babyjax13]

I gotta say, I don't really get the point of trading Crowder for Bogs at this point. He has slid so badly defensively. Why trade a four who can defend and is a passable shooter for a great shooting four that can't defend at all when you already have Cam Johnson? Doesn't save money now or later. Seems to me like Crowder compliments their roster better. Maybe they think Bogs' can create a bit to alleviate the need for some bench guard play?

I don't think Bogs has gotten worse on D. I think the team as a unit was less cohesive so that impacted some of his impact stats, but he did as good a job as you could ask on Luka. He is really physical and his lateral quickness is not terrible.

[K_chile22]

I gotta say, I don't really get the point of trading Crowder for Bogs at this point. He has slid so badly defensively. Why trade a four who can defend and is a passable shooter for a great shooting four that can't defend at all when you already have Cam Johnson? Doesn't save money now or later. Seems to me like Crowder compliments their roster better. Maybe they think Bogs' can create a bit to alleviate the need for some bench guard play?

I don't think Bogs has gotten worse on D. I think the team as a unit was less cohesive so that impacted some of his impact stats, but he did as good a job as you could ask on Luka. He is really physical and his lateral quickness is not terrible.

well, if it was the whole team his impact stats wouldn't be so bad. And Luka is a bit of a favorable matchup (as far as superstars go) for slower footed strong guys, aquiring him and Conley is what tanked their defense that used to be so good (though it's also what bumped their offense so much)

[Texas Chuck]

. And Luka is a bit of a favorable matchup

Things I did not expect to read today, for $1000, Alex.

I know what you meant, but I also disagree. Luka absolutely cooked him. Now he was out there picking Luka up full court and absolutely competing his tail off, unlike the Utah guards ands wings, but the numbers tell us he was absolutely tragic trying to defend Luka.