Orlando early offseason in review (HW/bondom34/dbrandon/Smitty731/HowardMass)

[tiderulz]

Your spacing was bad last year but getting a PG that can make an outside shot coming out of pick and rolls could have resolved issues if you played Gordon at PF.

Now it's no better and you are making it worse by playing a PF at SF.

Vogel himself claimed in interviews that you'd have to win games with a 70-68 scoreline. That's not a great endorsement of roster balance from your coach himself.

you dont seem to have really watched Gordon play if you call him a PF. his game is all SF, he isnt great at post defense, his man defense at the perimeter is 10x better. He has better ball handling, has issues with bigger, thicker PF's moving him for position.

Good god, Gordon's best case scenario is Serge Ibaka. He doesn't have the ball handling, passing or shooting skill to play sf. If you put him at the 3 you have three lumps who cannot put there ball on the floor and not turn it over.

If he can switch on defense to smaller guys and guard them well, that's an advantage but using him permanently to play a defensive sf is basically limiting his quickness as he is rapid quick for a PF but average for a sf.

glad to see you know exactly what a 20 yr old, just scratching the surface player has a best case for. you must sit in the draft room for the Lakers, you seem to have all the answers better than anyone who is actually paid to develop players and do this for a living

[Slava]

You guys are so defensive, its hilarious.

[wise1-2]

Your spacing was bad last year but getting a PG that can make an outside shot coming out of pick and rolls could have resolved issues if you played Gordon at PF.

Now it's no better and you are making it worse by playing a PF at SF.

Vogel himself claimed in interviews that you'd have to win games with a 70-68 scoreline. That's not a great endorsement of roster balance from your coach himself.

you dont seem to have really watched Gordon play if you call him a PF. his game is all SF, he isnt great at post defense, his man defense at the perimeter is 10x better. He has better ball handling, has issues with bigger, thicker PF's moving him for position.

Good god, Gordon's best case scenario is Serge Ibaka. He doesn't have the ball handling, passing or shooting skill to play sf. If you put him at the 3 you have three lumps who cannot put there ball on the floor and not turn it over.

If he can switch on defense to smaller guys and guard them well, that's an advantage but using him permanently to play a defensive sf is basically limiting his quickness as he is rapid quick for a PF but average for a sf.

This makes no sense. you're not "limiting his quickness" by putting him on SF. You're using his length. Gordon is potentially an elite perimeter defender. You're using his biggest strength.

He's also not at all similar to Ibaka. He can put the ball on the floor. He can handle and pass. That is why he drew some comparisons to Draymond, Griffin or Josh Smith. Your evaluation is way off. If you've watched Gordon play you'd know he's capable of grabbing a rebound and leading the break. Does this look like ibaka to you? Note the behind the back dribble.

Watch on YouTube

[Slava]

Yep, the behind the back dribble, that proves everything.

The last player to play SF at an elite level without handling the ball well was Shawn Marion. If Gordon can imitate his slashing game, that's something worth looking forward to. Even then Marion played a ton of time as a small ball PF.

[wise1-2]

Yep, the behind the back dribble, that proves everything.

The last player to play SF at an elite level without handling the ball well was Shawn Marion. If Gordon can imitate his slashing game, that's something worth looking forward to. Even then Marion played a ton of time as a small ball PF.

I'm just saying, your evaluation is way way off.

[DreDay]

I don't see the point of playing Gordon at SF when his best asset defensively appears to be his length inside whilst he's also athletically special as a 4 but not as much as a 3. In this thread he's even compared to Griffin/Green/Smith...there's a reason these guys excelled at the 4 and not the 3.

[stitches]

I think they panicked and made a hasty decision to overpay for Ibaka and compounded the mistake by paying huge money to another player with overlapping skillset to Ibaka. In a vacuum I like Biyombo's acquisition, but not so much after they got Ibaka.

[tiderulz]

You guys are so defensive, its hilarious.

you are so sure of your "opinion" that you believe it is fact

[tiderulz]

I don't see the point of playing Gordon at SF when his best asset defensively appears to be his length inside whilst he's also athletically special as a 4 but not as much as a 3. In this thread he's even compared to Griffin/Green/Smith...there's a reason these guys excelled at the 4 and not the 3.

he doesnt have elite length at 6'8 with 6'11 wingspan. his best asset is his athleticism. even at the 3 he has elite athleticism

[tiderulz]

I think they panicked and made a hasty decision to overpay for Ibaka and compounded the mistake by paying huge money to another player with overlapping skillset to Ibaka. In a vacuum I like Biyombo's acquisition, but not so much after they got Ibaka.

so Ibaka is a 3 pt shooting shot blocking PF and Biyombo has an overlapping skill set? I must have missed BIyombo having range to outside the 3 pt line and his PnR play and passing. i'll have to go back and look for it

[Slava]

Jeez I wonder how Biyombo got paid $17 million then.

[stitches]

I think they panicked and made a hasty decision to overpay for Ibaka and compounded the mistake by paying huge money to another player with overlapping skillset to Ibaka. In a vacuum I like Biyombo's acquisition, but not so much after they got Ibaka.

so Ibaka is a 3 pt shooting shot blocking PF and Biyombo has an overlapping skill set? I must have missed BIyombo having range to outside the 3 pt line and his PnR play and passing. i'll have to go back and look for it

Come on, you are better than this. You know perfectly well what I meant. And yes Ibaka has basically identical skillset to Biyombo defensively with the added bonus of having some offensive game. So get rid off the snark and tell me what does Biyombo (especially on his contract) add to a team that just had overpayed to get Ibaka.

[tiderulz]

I think they panicked and made a hasty decision to overpay for Ibaka and compounded the mistake by paying huge money to another player with overlapping skillset to Ibaka. In a vacuum I like Biyombo's acquisition, but not so much after they got Ibaka.

so Ibaka is a 3 pt shooting shot blocking PF and Biyombo has an overlapping skill set? I must have missed BIyombo having range to outside the 3 pt line and his PnR play and passing. i'll have to go back and look for it

Come on, you are better than this. You know perfectly well what I meant. And yes Ibaka has basically identical skillset to Biyombo defensively with the added bonus of having some offensive game. So get rid off the snark and tell me what does Biyombo (especially on his contract) add to a team that just had overpayed to get Ibaka.

no i dont. People on here say one thing when they mean another. If you mean something, say it. Makes it harder for people to not know what you mean.

And Biyombo and Ibaka do not have the same skillset. we have heard from many OKC posters that Ibaka is a great weakside shot blocker, but is not great man defense and not good post defense. Biyombo is strong in the post and man on man. He will clog things up in the middle, things that OKC fans tell us Ibaka has not done in his time in OKC.

[tiderulz]

Jeez I wonder how Biyombo got paid $17 million then.

its a great time to be 7', play some D and be young.

[stitches]

no i dont. People on here say one thing when they mean another. If you mean something, say it. Makes it harder for people to not know what you mean.

And Biyombo and Ibaka do not have the same skillset. we have heard from many OKC posters that Ibaka is a great weakside shot blocker, but is not great man defense and not good post defense. Biyombo is strong in the post and man on man. He will clog things up in the middle, things that OKC fans tell us Ibaka has not done in his time in OKC.

I disagree with that assessment. Ibaka is a very very good all around defender, including man on man. His defensive metrics and defensive shot charts have been among the most impressive in the league for years. IMO he's been one of the best defenders in the league for a while and not only because of his weakside shotblocking. I really don't think Biyombo adds much and especially not enough to pay him 17m per year....unless of course you don't get Ibaka to stay in which case, the initial trade is even more horrible.

[Illmatic12]

you dont seem to have really watched Gordon play if you call him a PF. his game is all SF, he isnt great at post defense, his man defense at the perimeter is 10x better. He has better ball handling, has issues with bigger, thicker PF's moving him for position.

Good god, Gordon's best case scenario is Serge Ibaka. He doesn't have the ball handling, passing or shooting skill to play sf. If you put him at the 3 you have three lumps who cannot put there ball on the floor and not turn it over.

If he can switch on defense to smaller guys and guard them well, that's an advantage but using him permanently to play a defensive sf is basically limiting his quickness as he is rapid quick for a PF but average for a sf.

This makes no sense. you're not "limiting his quickness" by putting him on SF. You're using his length. Gordon is potentially an elite perimeter defender. You're using his biggest strength.

He's also not at all similar to Ibaka. He can put the ball on the floor. He can handle and pass. That is why he drew some comparisons to Draymond, Griffin or Josh Smith. Your evaluation is way off. If you've watched Gordon play you'd know he's capable of grabbing a rebound and leading the break. Does this look like ibaka to you? Note the behind the back dribble.

Watch on YouTube

All those players named above play the PF position. Mark Jackson tried to shoehorn Draymond as an SF, and now we see what has happened after Kerr moved him to the 4.

I'm not as critical as some are on Orlando's offseason moves (and I've been saying for years that Oladipo is poor man's Monta Ellis with defense, I never bought the hype on him). But the Gordon at SF idea definitely does not make me more confident on what the Magic are doing. Even if it theoretically helps his development in the long run, it puts the team in a worse position for the present as there's a deficit of shooting and offensive creation ability across the roster.


Now depending on how their core develops (particularly Hezonja along with Gordon) ORL could have a bright future. But this season I don't see the Magic as a playoff team - maybe ~35-40 win range. It's questionable how they'd be able to execute in crunch time against a set defense, I predict a lot of low-scoring games and close losses. Their lineups are going to consist of too many players who either can't shoot or can't pass, and they're lacking that elite player who'd carry them to wins.

[tiderulz]

no i dont. People on here say one thing when they mean another. If you mean something, say it. Makes it harder for people to not know what you mean.

And Biyombo and Ibaka do not have the same skillset. we have heard from many OKC posters that Ibaka is a great weakside shot blocker, but is not great man defense and not good post defense. Biyombo is strong in the post and man on man. He will clog things up in the middle, things that OKC fans tell us Ibaka has not done in his time in OKC.

I disagree with that assessment. Ibaka is a very very good all around defender, including man on man. His defensive metrics and defensive shot charts have been among the most impressive in the league for years. IMO he's been one of the best defenders in the league for a while and not only because of his weakside shotblocking. I really don't think Biyombo adds much and especially not enough to pay him 17m per year....unless of course you don't get Ibaka to stay in which case, the initial trade is even more horrible.

have you not been following this thread? OKC fans vehemently disagree with you on Ibaka's defense.

[stitches]

no i dont. People on here say one thing when they mean another. If you mean something, say it. Makes it harder for people to not know what you mean.

And Biyombo and Ibaka do not have the same skillset. we have heard from many OKC posters that Ibaka is a great weakside shot blocker, but is not great man defense and not good post defense. Biyombo is strong in the post and man on man. He will clog things up in the middle, things that OKC fans tell us Ibaka has not done in his time in OKC.

I disagree with that assessment. Ibaka is a very very good all around defender, including man on man. His defensive metrics and defensive shot charts have been among the most impressive in the league for years. IMO he's been one of the best defenders in the league for a while and not only because of his weakside shotblocking. I really don't think Biyombo adds much and especially not enough to pay him 17m per year....unless of course you don't get Ibaka to stay in which case, the initial trade is even more horrible.

have you not been following this thread? OKC fans vehemently disagree with you on Ibaka's defense.

That's alright, I don't mind disagreements, otherwise those boards would be boring as hell...

[Mr. E]

Ah the persecution complex is here. Could it be a trade was disliked because teams giving away lotto picks for no reason isn't a great management practice? Nah, they just are haters. Can you do research after the fact and learn? Nah, haters. Can you say a trade isn't ideal for fit but fine on value? Nah, haters. Really its old.

Oh, and yes VO is better than Waiters. We can show those posts again.

we remember doing research. And if i remember right, you yourself said Dipo wasnt worth Ibaka straight up. that was just a few months ago.

Wouldn't his pre-trade assessment be correct then? Oladipo was not worth Ibaka straight up. The Magic had to add Ilyasova & Sabonis (#11 draft pick).

Dipo should be a good fit for the Thunder, as should Ilyasova. They'll both have roles with the team. The biggest reason why I liked the return so much was the potential of Sabonis. They now have him on a nice rookie contract to see what he can do.

And Ibaka should be a great fit for Orlando. I like him in that lineup, especially if he can develop some chemistry with Payton. But we can't make the error of just looking at this trade as an Ibaka/Oladipo swap. It wasn't even Ibaka/Oladipo + Fillers. Orlando had to give up real assets to make the trade happen.

Overall for Orlando their offseason hasn't wowed me, but it has left the franchise possibly heading in a better direction. Vogel was a fantastic choice for head coach.

[wise1-2]

Good god, Gordon's best case scenario is Serge Ibaka. He doesn't have the ball handling, passing or shooting skill to play sf. If you put him at the 3 you have three lumps who cannot put there ball on the floor and not turn it over.

If he can switch on defense to smaller guys and guard them well, that's an advantage but using him permanently to play a defensive sf is basically limiting his quickness as he is rapid quick for a PF but average for a sf.

This makes no sense. you're not "limiting his quickness" by putting him on SF. You're using his length. Gordon is potentially an elite perimeter defender. You're using his biggest strength.

He's also not at all similar to Ibaka. He can put the ball on the floor. He can handle and pass. That is why he drew some comparisons to Draymond, Griffin or Josh Smith. Your evaluation is way off. If you've watched Gordon play you'd know he's capable of grabbing a rebound and leading the break. Does this look like ibaka to you? Note the behind the back dribble.

Watch on YouTube

All those players named above play the PF position. Mark Jackson tried to shoehorn Draymond as an SF, and now we see what has happened after Kerr moved him to the 4.

I'm not as critical as some are on Orlando's offseason moves (and I've been saying for years that Oladipo is poor man's Monta Ellis with defense, I never bought the hype on him). But the Gordon at SF idea definitely does not make me more confident on what the Magic are doing. Even if it theoretically helps his development in the long run, it puts the team in a worse position for the present as there's a deficit of shooting and offensive creation ability across the roster.


Now depending on how their core develops (particularly Hezonja along with Gordon) ORL could have a bright future. But this season I don't see the Magic as a playoff team - maybe ~35-40 win range. It's questionable how they'd be able to execute in crunch time against a set defense, I predict a lot of low-scoring games and close losses. Their lineups are going to consist of too many players who either can't shoot or can't pass, and they're lacking that elite player who'd carry them to wins.

None of them had/have Gordon's lateral quickness. They also didn't play with Ibaka. Usually, you'd play these guys alongside a good shooting SF, which is much easier to find than a good shooting PF. Again, don't get too hung up on positions. Ibaka and Gordon are so versatile. Teams are likely to try putting a SF on Ibaka and their PF on Gordon at times. Especially if Gordon isn't a good shooter yet.

And I disagree I think they win 43, but we can agree to disagree.