Turner to the Celtics - How?

[djFan71]

The problem is, the massive gap means we simply can’t “just get to the next year”, as we’d have to deal (because of luxury tax) essentially 5 roster spots that would only be replaced with Hayward and vet minimums. We’d lose out on the ability to dump any salary (the only guys over vet min/rookie salaries would be the starting 5 and Doug McDermott). If he’d take a cheap extension the next summer, we’d already have thrown away an entire offseason of team building (trades and signings) to commit to enter a summer with two of our key 5 guys unrestricted free agents. It’s just not feasible.

I was assuming you'd be dumping McDermott and/or Leaf in the Hayward trade as well. But, yeah, I still don't think it's a good move for you guys. Did you see the Sabonis for OG/Powell idea in the other thread? Even if not that one per se, that's more the type of trades I'd look for on your end. Pick a center, get some young wing talent.

Yeah if we do that, it has to be a Turner/Lamb/Leaf for Hayward swap, which adds $3m or so to the books for Indy, and leaves us with only 10 guys u be we contract and almost $128m on The books. Filling out the final 5 spots, at just vet minimum signings would leave us over this years luxury tax. With the following roster:
Brogdon/McConnell/Sumner
Oladipo/AHoliday
Warren/McDermott
Hayward
Sabonis/Goga

And 5 vet minimums to fill all the rest of the roster, while still being over the tax. It’s just not realistic for Indy to fit in Hayward, especially if Boston wants to cut a couple million, too.

yeah, even though you said it like 6 times, I wasn't thinking about filling the roster spots, just the trade balance. 7th time's a charm, though. Thanks for the persistence, lol.

[JRoy]

No ones giving up a player like Turner for an expiring Hayward.

[Spin Move]

No ones giving up a player like Turner for an expiring Hayward.

I think there is some vast overating of Turner, a nice player but not spectaculer in any way, going on in this thread. He is a negative carrer Box+_ offensive player and not that positive on the defenseive end. His value over replacement player this year was 1 Haywards was literally double that with more win shares. The pacers were .1 point per game better with Turner on the Floor, the Celtics were 2.7 points better with Hayward on the floor smart has better numbers then him as well. Turner grabbed 6.6 rebounds a game, and despite being very tall has never averaged 8 rebounds a game per season. Hayward averaged 6.7 rebounds a game....read that correctly, Hayward rebounded more the MYles turner.

I am not saying Turner is not a good player, he is, there are just some indy fan's way overvaluing him in here, but he is a guy who has never averaged 15 points 7.5 rebounds or 3 blocks a season his best attribute is his shotblocking but his lack of rebounding makes that less valauble. He is a good role player.

[pacers33granger]

As Scoot said, it's not really overvaluing. He doesn't have the value brown does, I'll give you that. The problem always comes back to the fact that we'd want a better fit at PF back and there's 2-3 guys who really fit the mold we need. We like Turner as a player and professional and he brings 80% of what we're looking for so we will just keep him.

His value isn't reflected in the box score other than blocks really. Much in the same way Smart is so much more valuable to his team than it would seem looking at his stats.

And I'd remind people that this thread was started by a Celtics fan looking for the price. This isn't Indy putting him on the block or anything. I don't see us getting what we want if we were to do so, but that hasn't happened yet and he's locked up for a few more years so keep him is our best option far and away.

[Topofthekey]

No ones giving up a player like Turner for an expiring Hayward.

I think there is some vast overating of Turner, a nice player but not spectaculer in any way, going on in this thread. He is a negative carrer Box+_ offensive player and not that positive on the defenseive end. His value over replacement player this year was 1 Haywards was literally double that with more win shares. The pacers were .1 point per game better with Turner on the Floor, the Celtics were 2.7 points better with Hayward on the floor smart has better numbers then him as well. Turner grabbed 6.6 rebounds a game, and despite being very tall has never averaged 8 rebounds a game per season. Hayward averaged 6.7 rebounds a game....read that correctly, Hayward rebounded more the MYles turner.

I am not saying Turner is not a good player, he is, there are just some indy fan's way overvaluing him in here, but he is a guy who has never averaged 15 points 7.5 rebounds or 3 blocks a season his best attribute is his shotblocking but his lack of rebounding makes that less valauble. He is a good role player.

You sound like you feel Hayward is the better player over Turner

This should be a trade that you'll be very happy with then: just keep Hayward and let Pacers have Turner

How are the Pacers overvaluing Turner when they aren't even trying to trade him in the first place

Pacers don't even have a head coach yet; they'll likely want to see how Turner (and the rest of the roster) fare under the new HC before they make any decisions on who, if any, they want to trade

And how many full games has the projected starting lineup of Turner-Sabonis-Warren-Oladipo-Brogdon played? Pacers would again obviously want to see how the team plays when everyone is relatively healthy before making any decisions

That is not to say Turner is untouchable, just that if you want to acquire Turner, your offer needs to be one that is good enough to convince the Pacers to tell themselves "forget about getting everyone healthy, forget about who the HC is going to be, let's do this trade now"

Hayward for Turner isn't it

[Scoot McGroot]

I was assuming you'd be dumping McDermott and/or Leaf in the Hayward trade as well. But, yeah, I still don't think it's a good move for you guys. Did you see the Sabonis for OG/Powell idea in the other thread? Even if not that one per se, that's more the type of trades I'd look for on your end. Pick a center, get some young wing talent.

Yeah if we do that, it has to be a Turner/Lamb/Leaf for Hayward swap, which adds $3m or so to the books for Indy, and leaves us with only 10 guys u be we contract and almost $128m on The books. Filling out the final 5 spots, at just vet minimum signings would leave us over this years luxury tax. With the following roster:
Brogdon/McConnell/Sumner
Oladipo/AHoliday
Warren/McDermott
Hayward
Sabonis/Goga

And 5 vet minimums to fill all the rest of the roster, while still being over the tax. It’s just not realistic for Indy to fit in Hayward, especially if Boston wants to cut a couple million, too.

yeah, even though you said it like 6 times, I wasn't thinking about filling the roster spots, just the trade balance. 7th time's a charm, though. Thanks for the persistence, lol.

Haha! No worries at all! It seemed like you understood the money was tight, but thinking about the roster spots after a big consolidation trade is sometimes hard to picture too.

[Scoot McGroot]

No ones giving up a player like Turner for an expiring Hayward.

I think there is some vast overating of Turner, a nice player but not spectaculer in any way, going on in this thread. He is a negative carrer Box+_ offensive player and not that positive on the defenseive end. His value over replacement player this year was 1 Haywards was literally double that with more win shares. The pacers were .1 point per game better with Turner on the Floor, the Celtics were 2.7 points better with Hayward on the floor smart has better numbers then him as well. Turner grabbed 6.6 rebounds a game, and despite being very tall has never averaged 8 rebounds a game per season. Hayward averaged 6.7 rebounds a game....read that correctly, Hayward rebounded more the MYles turner.

I am not saying Turner is not a good player, he is, there are just some indy fan's way overvaluing him in here, but he is a guy who has never averaged 15 points 7.5 rebounds or 3 blocks a season his best attribute is his shotblocking but his lack of rebounding makes that less valauble. He is a good role player.

Rudy Gobert has never averaged 3 blocks per game in a season. Is he overrated? But Hassan Whiteside once averaged over 3 blocks per game. Is he underrated?

[100proof]

No ones giving up a player like Turner for an expiring Hayward.

I think there is some vast overating of Turner, a nice player but not spectaculer in any way, going on in this thread. He is a negative carrer Box+_ offensive player and not that positive on the defenseive end. His value over replacement player this year was 1 Haywards was literally double that with more win shares. The pacers were .1 point per game better with Turner on the Floor, the Celtics were 2.7 points better with Hayward on the floor smart has better numbers then him as well. Turner grabbed 6.6 rebounds a game, and despite being very tall has never averaged 8 rebounds a game per season. Hayward averaged 6.7 rebounds a game....read that correctly, Hayward rebounded more the MYles turner.

I am not saying Turner is not a good player, he is, there are just some indy fan's way overvaluing him in here, but he is a guy who has never averaged 15 points 7.5 rebounds or 3 blocks a season his best attribute is his shotblocking but his lack of rebounding makes that less valauble. He is a good role player.

Rudy Gobert has never averaged 3 blocks per game in a season. Is he overrated? But Hassan Whiteside once averaged over 3 blocks per game. Is he underrated?

He is a good shot blocker, but its that he doesnt do anything else at an above average rate.
I posted some comparison numbers earlier in the thread. He really doesnt contribute much outside of those blocks. He doesnt rebound as well as a big should, he isnt a volume scorer. he is an ok 3pt shooter.

He is borderline a shot blocking specialist.

[Wizop]

He doesnt rebound as well as a big should, he isnt a volume scorer. he is an ok 3pt shooter.

He is borderline a shot blocking specialist.

yes, but he's our borderline shot blocking specialist.

he knows he needs to rebound better and be more of a low post threat. we'll see what he does with an offseason of practice and a new coach.

but here is the real problem. Pacers have 4 players making 18mm or more and keeping Oladipo will put one of the way over 18mm. say he gets a conservative 30. 30 + 18 + 18 + 18 = 84mm.. trade one of the 18's for a second 30 and that's 96. the only time I can remember us paying luxury tax was when we allowed Reggie Miller a final you are soon to retire new deal. there is just no way we can pay Hayward and Oladipo both 30+ with Brogdon, Turner, and Sabonis at 18+. and then there is Warren on a bargain deal and his day will come.

bottom line: the only way we can acquire a 30mm player now is to give up our current 30mm player. it is Oladipo not Turner who would have to be moved. now maybe he's unhappy and wants to move regardless (he's in LA this Fall) but there are numerous trade Oladipo threads and they all conclude that teams will wait until the end of the season when he becomes a free agent rather than risking taking him on as a rental. note though that if Victor does walk next summer, all these numbers change and if the Turner/Sabonis pairing hasn't worked with the new coach, we'll have room to maneuver then.

[patman66]

No way is Smart more valuable than Turner, especially to a team like Boston who lacks the rim protector big man. They could easily move Brown back to SG and start Hayward at SF with Tatum at PF and Turner at Center. I wouldn't trade Turner straight up for Smart as the Pacers because we don't need another combo guard, I think we have 3 now. It keeps coming back to team balance, I don't think the Celtics have the right pieces to get Turner from Indiana.

listening to some of the pacer fans, no one has the assets to get wilt I mean turner.

Sigh. If this is your takeaway, then you’re just not engaging responsibly. I’m sorry you think that’s how we’re responding, instead of something realistic of “we don’t love trading Turner for a bunch of smaller pieces” or “we can’t afford to deal Turner for Hayward due to how the salary structure would have to work”. But, if you’d like to respond genuinely and discuss fairly, we’ll be here.

I am engaging responsibly. It was just a dig, making light of a 7 page discussion. Please don't be so sanctimonious.

[youOK]

I think there is some vast overating of Turner, a nice player but not spectaculer in any way, going on in this thread. He is a negative carrer Box+_ offensive player and not that positive on the defenseive end. His value over replacement player this year was 1 Haywards was literally double that with more win shares. The pacers were .1 point per game better with Turner on the Floor, the Celtics were 2.7 points better with Hayward on the floor smart has better numbers then him as well. Turner grabbed 6.6 rebounds a game, and despite being very tall has never averaged 8 rebounds a game per season. Hayward averaged 6.7 rebounds a game....read that correctly, Hayward rebounded more the MYles turner.

I am not saying Turner is not a good player, he is, there are just some indy fan's way overvaluing him in here, but he is a guy who has never averaged 15 points 7.5 rebounds or 3 blocks a season his best attribute is his shotblocking but his lack of rebounding makes that less valauble. He is a good role player.

Rudy Gobert has never averaged 3 blocks per game in a season. Is he overrated? But Hassan Whiteside once averaged over 3 blocks per game. Is he underrated?

He is a good shot blocker, but its that he doesnt do anything else at an above average rate.
I posted some comparison numbers earlier in the thread. He really doesnt contribute much outside of those blocks. He doesnt rebound as well as a big should, he isnt a volume scorer. he is an ok 3pt shooter.

He is borderline a shot blocking specialist.

He's a young elite shot-blocker who is a good defensive player and can shoot. No one is saying he is an all-star or worth Jaylen Brown. In a vacuum, Hayward is a better player but he is 6 years older, paid 60% more, has high injury risk, and an upcoming free agent.

The Pacers would be rolling with one of the most injury-prone cores I've ever seen if they trade. That seems like a huge risk for not a ton of upside considering that they still would have the worst player on the court against most of the East playoff teams unless Oladipo fully recovers.

I also don't see the logic in trading turner for multiple pieces unless you believe one of those young players has all-star upside potential. Turner is already a starting level player on a good contract so why would you take a step back without upside in the long-term. The Pacers had good depth last year and have a roster full of good-ish players. If anything they need to find a way to acquire and consolidate starting talent versus acquiring depth.

[JRoy]

No ones giving up a player like Turner for an expiring Hayward.

I think there is some vast overating of Turner, a nice player but not spectaculer in any way, going on in this thread. He is a negative carrer Box+_ offensive player and not that positive on the defenseive end. His value over replacement player this year was 1 Haywards was literally double that with more win shares. The pacers were .1 point per game better with Turner on the Floor, the Celtics were 2.7 points better with Hayward on the floor smart has better numbers then him as well. Turner grabbed 6.6 rebounds a game, and despite being very tall has never averaged 8 rebounds a game per season. Hayward averaged 6.7 rebounds a game....read that correctly, Hayward rebounded more the MYles turner.

I am not saying Turner is not a good player, he is, there are just some indy fan's way overvaluing him in here, but he is a guy who has never averaged 15 points 7.5 rebounds or 3 blocks a season his best attribute is his shotblocking but his lack of rebounding makes that less valauble. He is a good role player.

You sound like you feel Hayward is the better player over Turner

This should be a trade that you'll be very happy with then: just keep Hayward and let Pacers have Turner

How are the Pacers overvaluing Turner when they aren't even trying to trade him in the first place

Pacers don't even have a head coach yet; they'll likely want to see how Turner (and the rest of the roster) fare under the new HC before they make any decisions on who, if any, they want to trade

And how many full games has the projected starting lineup of Turner-Sabonis-Warren-Oladipo-Brogdon played? Pacers would again obviously want to see how the team plays when everyone is relatively healthy before making any decisions

That is not to say Turner is untouchable, just that if you want to acquire Turner, your offer needs to be one that is good enough to convince the Pacers to tell themselves "forget about getting everyone healthy, forget about who the HC is going to be, let's do this trade now"

Hayward for Turner isn't it

This whole deal sounds like BOS fans trying to get some value out of Hayward before he expires. No team can afford to lock so much cap into 3 players that play the same position.

Turner is a roleplayer but he’s a pretty solid one on a great deal.
Hayward will be looking for a new deal and has age and injury history lowering his value.

I doubt Hayward gets moved but if he does it will be for less than Turner.

[100proof]

I think there is some vast overating of Turner, a nice player but not spectaculer in any way, going on in this thread. He is a negative carrer Box+_ offensive player and not that positive on the defenseive end. His value over replacement player this year was 1 Haywards was literally double that with more win shares. The pacers were .1 point per game better with Turner on the Floor, the Celtics were 2.7 points better with Hayward on the floor smart has better numbers then him as well. Turner grabbed 6.6 rebounds a game, and despite being very tall has never averaged 8 rebounds a game per season. Hayward averaged 6.7 rebounds a game....read that correctly, Hayward rebounded more the MYles turner.

I am not saying Turner is not a good player, he is, there are just some indy fan's way overvaluing him in here, but he is a guy who has never averaged 15 points 7.5 rebounds or 3 blocks a season his best attribute is his shotblocking but his lack of rebounding makes that less valauble. He is a good role player.

You sound like you feel Hayward is the better player over Turner

This should be a trade that you'll be very happy with then: just keep Hayward and let Pacers have Turner

How are the Pacers overvaluing Turner when they aren't even trying to trade him in the first place

Pacers don't even have a head coach yet; they'll likely want to see how Turner (and the rest of the roster) fare under the new HC before they make any decisions on who, if any, they want to trade

And how many full games has the projected starting lineup of Turner-Sabonis-Warren-Oladipo-Brogdon played? Pacers would again obviously want to see how the team plays when everyone is relatively healthy before making any decisions

That is not to say Turner is untouchable, just that if you want to acquire Turner, your offer needs to be one that is good enough to convince the Pacers to tell themselves "forget about getting everyone healthy, forget about who the HC is going to be, let's do this trade now"

Hayward for Turner isn't it

This whole deal sounds like BOS fans trying to get some value out of Hayward before he expires. No team can afford to lock so much cap into 3 players that play the same position.

Turner is a roleplayer but he’s a pretty solid one on a great deal.
Hayward will be looking for a new deal and has age and injury history lowering his value.

I doubt Hayward gets moved but if he does it will be for less than Turner.

There is a strong, strong possibility that Hayward just resigns for less money over a longer period of time.

ANd Boston is ok with that too.

Us fans just see some glaring holes and want to see them fixed, our bench kinda sucks and we are weak up front. So those are areas that need addressed, and trading Hayward can accomplish that rather quickly, or quicker, than using only MLEs and draft picks.

[JRoy]

You sound like you feel Hayward is the better player over Turner

This should be a trade that you'll be very happy with then: just keep Hayward and let Pacers have Turner

How are the Pacers overvaluing Turner when they aren't even trying to trade him in the first place

Pacers don't even have a head coach yet; they'll likely want to see how Turner (and the rest of the roster) fare under the new HC before they make any decisions on who, if any, they want to trade

And how many full games has the projected starting lineup of Turner-Sabonis-Warren-Oladipo-Brogdon played? Pacers would again obviously want to see how the team plays when everyone is relatively healthy before making any decisions

That is not to say Turner is untouchable, just that if you want to acquire Turner, your offer needs to be one that is good enough to convince the Pacers to tell themselves "forget about getting everyone healthy, forget about who the HC is going to be, let's do this trade now"

Hayward for Turner isn't it

This whole deal sounds like BOS fans trying to get some value out of Hayward before he expires. No team can afford to lock so much cap into 3 players that play the same position.

Turner is a roleplayer but he’s a pretty solid one on a great deal.
Hayward will be looking for a new deal and has age and injury history lowering his value.

I doubt Hayward gets moved but if he does it will be for less than Turner.

There is a strong, strong possibility that Hayward just resigns for less money over a longer period of time.

ANd Boston is ok with that too.

Us fans just see some glaring holes and want to see them fixed, our bench kinda sucks and we are weak up front. So those are areas that need addressed, and trading Hayward can accomplish that rather quickly, or quicker, than using only MLEs and draft picks.

I don’t think there’s any question he signs for less than his current contract. The question is how much less.

[100proof]

This whole deal sounds like BOS fans trying to get some value out of Hayward before he expires. No team can afford to lock so much cap into 3 players that play the same position.

Turner is a roleplayer but he’s a pretty solid one on a great deal.
Hayward will be looking for a new deal and has age and injury history lowering his value.

I doubt Hayward gets moved but if he does it will be for less than Turner.

There is a strong, strong possibility that Hayward just resigns for less money over a longer period of time.

ANd Boston is ok with that too.

Us fans just see some glaring holes and want to see them fixed, our bench kinda sucks and we are weak up front. So those are areas that need addressed, and trading Hayward can accomplish that rather quickly, or quicker, than using only MLEs and draft picks.

I don’t think there’s any question he signs for less than his current contract. The question is how much less.

Depends on when he signs it. If he lets it expire and resigns with the celtics next offseason 20ish per year tops. Be less than Jaylen Brown, IMO.

If he resigns now it would be the same as Jaylen.

[basketballwacko2]

Yeah if we do that, it has to be a Turner/Lamb/Leaf for Hayward swap, which adds $3m or so to the books for Indy, and leaves us with only 10 guys u be we contract and almost $128m on The books. Filling out the final 5 spots, at just vet minimum signings would leave us over this years luxury tax. With the following roster:
Brogdon/McConnell/Sumner
Oladipo/AHoliday
Warren/McDermott
Hayward
Sabonis/Goga

And 5 vet minimums to fill all the rest of the roster, while still being over the tax. It’s just not realistic for Indy to fit in Hayward, especially if Boston wants to cut a couple million, too.

yeah, even though you said it like 6 times, I wasn't thinking about filling the roster spots, just the trade balance. 7th time's a charm, though. Thanks for the persistence, lol.

Haha! No worries at all! It seemed like you understood the money was tight, but thinking about the roster spots after a big consolidation trade is sometimes hard to picture too.

This is what I call the "Business of Basketball." If you're consolidating and saving money it's one thing. If you're taking on more money and putting yourself in the tax then each of those roster spots is costing you 2X to fill. I'd rather stand pat on what I have sign Justin Holiday to an MLE deal and play 30 games so I can see what I've got. Then if it's dysfunctional start thinking about what to do.

[basketballwacko2]

listening to some of the pacer fans, no one has the assets to get wilt I mean turner.

Sigh. If this is your takeaway, then you’re just not engaging responsibly. I’m sorry you think that’s how we’re responding, instead of something realistic of “we don’t love trading Turner for a bunch of smaller pieces” or “we can’t afford to deal Turner for Hayward due to how the salary structure would have to work”. But, if you’d like to respond genuinely and discuss fairly, we’ll be here.

I am engaging responsibly. It was just a dig, making light of a 7 page discussion. Please don't be so sanctimonious.

If that was an attempt and sarcasm that was a poorly executed move.

[basketballwacko2]

I think there is some vast overating of Turner, a nice player but not spectaculer in any way, going on in this thread. He is a negative carrer Box+_ offensive player and not that positive on the defenseive end. His value over replacement player this year was 1 Haywards was literally double that with more win shares. The pacers were .1 point per game better with Turner on the Floor, the Celtics were 2.7 points better with Hayward on the floor smart has better numbers then him as well. Turner grabbed 6.6 rebounds a game, and despite being very tall has never averaged 8 rebounds a game per season. Hayward averaged 6.7 rebounds a game....read that correctly, Hayward rebounded more the MYles turner.

I am not saying Turner is not a good player, he is, there are just some indy fan's way overvaluing him in here, but he is a guy who has never averaged 15 points 7.5 rebounds or 3 blocks a season his best attribute is his shotblocking but his lack of rebounding makes that less valauble. He is a good role player.

Rudy Gobert has never averaged 3 blocks per game in a season. Is he overrated? But Hassan Whiteside once averaged over 3 blocks per game. Is he underrated?

He is a good shot blocker, but its that he doesnt do anything else at an above average rate.
I posted some comparison numbers earlier in the thread. He really doesnt contribute much outside of those blocks. He doesnt rebound as well as a big should, he isnt a volume scorer. he is an ok 3pt shooter.

He is borderline a shot blocking specialist.

Ok now this post I have a real problem with. You started this thread wanting Turner traded to the Celtics remember! Now you want to downplay the guy like he's some kind of low end Manute Bol clone. You come to me wanting to buy my car and then start telling me that it's a pile of junk, if so why do you want it.

[Ballerhogger]

im going say jaylen brown or marcus smart.

[100proof]

Rudy Gobert has never averaged 3 blocks per game in a season. Is he overrated? But Hassan Whiteside once averaged over 3 blocks per game. Is he underrated?

He is a good shot blocker, but its that he doesnt do anything else at an above average rate.
I posted some comparison numbers earlier in the thread. He really doesnt contribute much outside of those blocks. He doesnt rebound as well as a big should, he isnt a volume scorer. he is an ok 3pt shooter.

He is borderline a shot blocking specialist.

Ok now this post I have a real problem with. You started this thread wanting Turner traded to the Celtics remember! Now you want to downplay the guy like he's some kind of low end Manute Bol clone. You come to me wanting to buy my car and then start telling me that it's a pile of junk, if so why do you want it.

I dug into him more since starting the thread.

I do think that as long as Turner is paired with Sabonis, he will never put up as good of numbers as he can elsewhere. And because of that perhaps there is some perceived value in potential. But Statistically speaking, he is average at most things, close to elite at shot blocking, below average rebounder.