Orlando early offseason in review (HW/bondom34/dbrandon/Smitty731/HowardMass)

[wise1-2]

And having two shot blockers isn't something bad. It's not like having two ball handlers/volume scorers hindering each other's games. Both players can protect the rim and are just very good defensively overall.

[Illmatic12]

This makes no sense. you're not "limiting his quickness" by putting him on SF. You're using his length. Gordon is potentially an elite perimeter defender. You're using his biggest strength.

He's also not at all similar to Ibaka. He can put the ball on the floor. He can handle and pass. That is why he drew some comparisons to Draymond, Griffin or Josh Smith. Your evaluation is way off. If you've watched Gordon play you'd know he's capable of grabbing a rebound and leading the break. Does this look like ibaka to you? Note the behind the back dribble.

Watch on YouTube

All those players named above play the PF position. Mark Jackson tried to shoehorn Draymond as an SF, and now we see what has happened after Kerr moved him to the 4.

I'm not as critical as some are on Orlando's offseason moves (and I've been saying for years that Oladipo is poor man's Monta Ellis with defense, I never bought the hype on him). But the Gordon at SF idea definitely does not make me more confident on what the Magic are doing. Even if it theoretically helps his development in the long run, it puts the team in a worse position for the present as there's a deficit of shooting and offensive creation ability across the roster.


Now depending on how their core develops (particularly Hezonja along with Gordon) ORL could have a bright future. But this season I don't see the Magic as a playoff team - maybe ~35-40 win range. It's questionable how they'd be able to execute in crunch time against a set defense, I predict a lot of low-scoring games and close losses. Their lineups are going to consist of too many players who either can't shoot or can't pass, and they're lacking that elite player who'd carry them to wins.

None of them had/have Gordon's lateral quickness. They also didn't play with Ibaka. Usually, you'd play these guys alongside a good shooting SF, which is much easier to find than a good shooting PF. Again, don't get too hung up on positions. Ibaka and Gordon are so versatile. Teams are likely to try putting a SF on Ibaka and their PF on Gordon at times. Especially if Gordon isn't a good shooter yet.

And I disagree I think they win 43, but we can agree to disagree.

Gordon and Ibaka are versatile on defense, not as much on offense. In some cases 'versatility' is just a code word for 'lacks defined skills' isn't it? Which another player on Orlando is the prime example (Jeff Green).

Ibaka is a poor passer and never developed a low post game, and he can't really dribble or do much with the ball. Really his sole competence on offense is spot up jumpers/corner threes. And there may well be less open threes available for him than in OKC, Elfrid Payton isn't the type of guard who will easily get dribble penetration and create open shots.

Gordon currently can't reliably score outside of the paint (and his paint scoring is primarily putbacks/assisted scoring not shot creation) + he's not an elite ballhandler who will break down the D in halfcourt. His numbers in isolation situations haven't been adequate, overall he doesn't have the profile of someone likely to become a stud perimeter player.

I'm not knocking your optimism or anything, but I struggle to see how the team can function offensively enough to win that many games. They have pieces for a strong D sure, though even that will be hampered by 30+mpg from Vucevic.

[wise1-2]

All those players named above play the PF position. Mark Jackson tried to shoehorn Draymond as an SF, and now we see what has happened after Kerr moved him to the 4.

I'm not as critical as some are on Orlando's offseason moves (and I've been saying for years that Oladipo is poor man's Monta Ellis with defense, I never bought the hype on him). But the Gordon at SF idea definitely does not make me more confident on what the Magic are doing. Even if it theoretically helps his development in the long run, it puts the team in a worse position for the present as there's a deficit of shooting and offensive creation ability across the roster.


Now depending on how their core develops (particularly Hezonja along with Gordon) ORL could have a bright future. But this season I don't see the Magic as a playoff team - maybe ~35-40 win range. It's questionable how they'd be able to execute in crunch time against a set defense, I predict a lot of low-scoring games and close losses. Their lineups are going to consist of too many players who either can't shoot or can't pass, and they're lacking that elite player who'd carry them to wins.

None of them had/have Gordon's lateral quickness. They also didn't play with Ibaka. Usually, you'd play these guys alongside a good shooting SF, which is much easier to find than a good shooting PF. Again, don't get too hung up on positions. Ibaka and Gordon are so versatile. Teams are likely to try putting a SF on Ibaka and their PF on Gordon at times. Especially if Gordon isn't a good shooter yet.

And I disagree I think they win 43, but we can agree to disagree.

Gordon and Ibaka are versatile on defense, not as much on offense. In some cases 'versatility' is just a code word for 'lacks defined skills' isn't it? Which another player on Orlando is the prime example (Jeff Green).

Ibaka is a poor passer and never developed a low post game, and he can't really dribble or do much with the ball. Really his sole competence on offense is spot up jumpers/corner threes. And there may well be less open threes available for him than in OKC, Elfrid Payton isn't the type of guard who will easily get dribble penetration and create open shots.

Gordon currently can't reliably score outside of the paint (and his paint scoring is primarily putbacks/assisted scoring not shot creation) + he's not an elite ballhandler who will break down the D in halfcourt. His numbers in isolation situations haven't been adequate, overall he doesn't have the profile of someone likely to become a stud perimeter player.

I'm not knocking your optimism or anything, but I struggle to see how the team can function offensively enough to win that many games. They have pieces for a strong D sure, though even that will be hampered by 30+mpg from Vucevic.

Gordon can handle and pass, ibaka can shoot. They bring different skill sets offensively. Gordon should be more of a slasher. I'm not saying Gordon is going to be an elite scorer, but Skiles never gave him adequate opportunities to show what he can and can't do. When Gordon was let loose in summer league, you could see the pull ups, crossovers, step back jumpers, using picks, all that was on display in summer league last year. I know its summer league and people will just dismiss it, but he was also only 19. I advise you to watch the highlights and see what he's one day capable of. He's only 20 years old today. Only 8 months older than Simmons. When Ibaka is at PF and Gordon is being guarded by a SF, he's actually more likely to be nearer to the basket. At PF he usually starts at the perimeter and tries to use his quickness to beat PFs, but in order to do that, he needs to hit some perimeter shots so defenders don't sag off too much. At SF he can punish weaker opponents with his size, athleticism and strength. We'll see what he's capable of, but he claims he feels more comfortable playing SF, and I think he has the tools to be very effective at that position. I think he has a lot of potential in him. When Kawhi was his age the VAST majority did not see him developing into a legit go to scorer. Same for Paul George and Jimmy Butler. Not that I'm saying he'll be as good as those guys offensively, just that they weren't considered good shot creators early in their careers. I'm more confident in his development than ever after the Magic hired Forcier, who was working with Kawhi to help him become the monster that he is today.

Ibaka really just needs to finish plays. He'll get a good amount of open looks from Vucevic's post offense alone, and Payton and Fournier are capable of getting to the paint. Ibaka should be able to post up SFs as well if they switch on him, but other than that I don't think he'll be creating his own shot. Again, as far as offense goes, their issues have always been overblown. They weren't as bad last year as people make them out to be. They won't be good on that end, but as I've proven already, that's not necessary if you have great defense.

I also think Vucevic is going to be better than ever defensively. He has a great defensive coach, a great back up, less pressure with less minutes, a great PF defender alongside him, ect. When he's struggling to stop a LeBron James penetration, Biyombo takes over. So he won't get torched as much as he used to. Still, he wasn't nearly as bad defensively last year as most people like to think. He made solid improvements on that end, and could again next season. I also think he'll be getting closer to 28 mpg.

[tiderulz]

Elfrid Payton isn't the type of guard who will easily get dribble penetration and create open shots.

2 years in, Elfrid has done a great job with dribble penetration and creating easy buckets for teammates.

[Scoot McGroot]

Al Jefferson started 18 games, played in 45, and played just a shade over 1000 minutes last year. He won't be missed.

ask Charlotte fans what they think about Jefferson having zero impact being gone. I believe they know more than you about their team and they have stated that he will be a loss.

It is a very small minority opinion among Charlotte fans that Al Jefferson will be missed, outside of his being a good locker room presence among a lot of high character, good locker room guys.

I expect IND fans to be mildly disappointed with Big Al. He has had constant injury issues the last two seasons.

We're asking him to play 15 minutes a night and maybe just score some inside. Myles Turner is going to get every minutes he can handle there. I just don't know that we have any expectations for Al that we could be disappointed in any way, really.

[pacers33granger]

You just described the pacers this past season. They won 45 games.

Ok? I didn't say that would mean they would suck. But I can tell you from experience that's not the way to win in the playoffs (and we had a top 15 player).

seem to remember Indiana giving Miami all they could handle, with just PG and not the greatest support cast against possibly 3 HOF players. That is an extreme upgrade over Skiles.

And our offense is what killed us in each series against Miami. The defense mucked it up enough that we had a shot, but we lost many games because we couldn't even get a shot in the last couple of minutes. It's part of Vogel's style that sacrifices offense for defense and it does win games, but you really need the offense to put games away and that really matters in the playoffs. Really the only reason we actually won some games is because George made some ridiculous plays.

I'm very curious to see how Orlando's offense looks this season. As others have mentioned, there's some strange fits and Vogel is a poor coach offensively. I could easily see them having a top 5 defense and bottom 5 offense.

I think "poor coach offensively" is a bit over-exagerrated. Indiana seemed about average offensively, but they were also fairly consistently top-10 in point differential. I also dont remember any offensive stars other than PG on that team. kinda hard to make chicken salad with chicken #$@#%

He is a poor offensive coach. Pacers fans have watched him with several variations of teams and he has made each of them top tier defensive teams, but low tier offensive teams. That's not say he's not a good coach, because he is, and he's great for the Magic, but he is poor offensively.

The system was slow as molasses since he became head coach. This is what Bird meant by needing to play faster on offense (not SSOL Suns like many seem to think). That type of offense becomes insanely predictable towards the end of games and leads to end of game plays where the ball is turned over or someone has to shoot a rushed shot. And, while it's a great quality, his belief in his players tended to go too far at times. This lead to CJ Miles chucking up horribly inefficient threes and being encouraged to continue (seriously, some of the shots he took I'd only feel comfortable with Steph taking them).

Vogel was a great hire for where the Magic are at. He's going to make Ibaka/Biyombo even better on defense and he's going to make Vucevic passable on that end. I think he'll also help Gordon make a leap. It's possible his style really helps Payton as well, but I'm not certain there. He will improve the team and he's a big upgrade over Skiles. Nonetheless, he is a poor coach offensively.

[wise1-2]

Ok? I didn't say that would mean they would suck. But I can tell you from experience that's not the way to win in the playoffs (and we had a top 15 player).

seem to remember Indiana giving Miami all they could handle, with just PG and not the greatest support cast against possibly 3 HOF players. That is an extreme upgrade over Skiles.

And our offense is what killed us in each series against Miami. The defense mucked it up enough that we had a shot, but we lost many games because we couldn't even get a shot in the last couple of minutes. It's part of Vogel's style that sacrifices offense for defense and it does win games, but you really need the offense to put games away and that really matters in the playoffs. Really the only reason we actually won some games is because George made some ridiculous plays.

I'm very curious to see how Orlando's offense looks this season. As others have mentioned, there's some strange fits and Vogel is a poor coach offensively. I could easily see them having a top 5 defense and bottom 5 offense.

I think "poor coach offensively" is a bit over-exagerrated. Indiana seemed about average offensively, but they were also fairly consistently top-10 in point differential. I also dont remember any offensive stars other than PG on that team. kinda hard to make chicken salad with chicken #$@#%

He is a poor offensive coach. Pacers fans have watched him with several variations of teams and he has made each of them top tier defensive teams, but low tier offensive teams. That's not say he's not a good coach, because he is, and he's great for the Magic, but he is poor offensively.

The system was slow as molasses since he became head coach. This is what Bird meant by needing to play faster on offense (not SSOL Suns like many seem to think). That type of offense becomes insanely predictable towards the end of games and leads to end of game plays where the ball is turned over or someone has to shoot a rushed shot. And, while it's a great quality, his belief in his players tended to go too far at times. This lead to CJ Miles chucking up horribly inefficient threes and being encouraged to continue (seriously, some of the shots he took I'd only feel comfortable with Steph taking them).

Vogel was a great hire for where the Magic are at. He's going to make Ibaka/Biyombo even better on defense and he's going to make Vucevic passable on that end. I think he'll also help Gordon make a leap. It's possible his style really helps Payton as well, but I'm not certain there. He will improve the team and he's a big upgrade over Skiles. Nonetheless, he is a poor coach offensively.

I think the Magic have better personnel to play with a high tempo. Still, the Pacers actually had an above average pace this past season. They ranked 11th, the Magic ranked 13th. So the slow as molasses part doesn't seem true. Again, I dont think the Magic will be good offensively at all, but they have some players that can put the ball in the hoop and make plays.

[tiderulz]

Ok? I didn't say that would mean they would suck. But I can tell you from experience that's not the way to win in the playoffs (and we had a top 15 player).

seem to remember Indiana giving Miami all they could handle, with just PG and not the greatest support cast against possibly 3 HOF players. That is an extreme upgrade over Skiles.

And our offense is what killed us in each series against Miami. The defense mucked it up enough that we had a shot, but we lost many games because we couldn't even get a shot in the last couple of minutes. It's part of Vogel's style that sacrifices offense for defense and it does win games, but you really need the offense to put games away and that really matters in the playoffs. Really the only reason we actually won some games is because George made some ridiculous plays.

I'm very curious to see how Orlando's offense looks this season. As others have mentioned, there's some strange fits and Vogel is a poor coach offensively. I could easily see them having a top 5 defense and bottom 5 offense.

I think "poor coach offensively" is a bit over-exagerrated. Indiana seemed about average offensively, but they were also fairly consistently top-10 in point differential. I also dont remember any offensive stars other than PG on that team. kinda hard to make chicken salad with chicken #$@#%

He is a poor offensive coach. Pacers fans have watched him with several variations of teams and he has made each of them top tier defensive teams, but low tier offensive teams. That's not say he's not a good coach, because he is, and he's great for the Magic, but he is poor offensively.

The system was slow as molasses since he became head coach. This is what Bird meant by needing to play faster on offense (not SSOL Suns like many seem to think). That type of offense becomes insanely predictable towards the end of games and leads to end of game plays where the ball is turned over or someone has to shoot a rushed shot. And, while it's a great quality, his belief in his players tended to go too far at times. This lead to CJ Miles chucking up horribly inefficient threes and being encouraged to continue (seriously, some of the shots he took I'd only feel comfortable with Steph taking them).

Vogel was a great hire for where the Magic are at. He's going to make Ibaka/Biyombo even better on defense and he's going to make Vucevic passable on that end. I think he'll also help Gordon make a leap. It's possible his style really helps Payton as well, but I'm not certain there. He will improve the team and he's a big upgrade over Skiles. Nonetheless, he is a poor coach offensively.

we'll see if he learned. He has different personnel, ones that he cant rely on one person to score points. He also got one of the best asst coaches from the Spurs in Forcier who we hope does wonders with AG, Payton and Hezonja. I still think you criticize Vogel a bit too much, average offense isnt poor imo. And top-10 point differential means wins. I'll take ugly wins.

[pacers33granger]

seem to remember Indiana giving Miami all they could handle, with just PG and not the greatest support cast against possibly 3 HOF players. That is an extreme upgrade over Skiles.

And our offense is what killed us in each series against Miami. The defense mucked it up enough that we had a shot, but we lost many games because we couldn't even get a shot in the last couple of minutes. It's part of Vogel's style that sacrifices offense for defense and it does win games, but you really need the offense to put games away and that really matters in the playoffs. Really the only reason we actually won some games is because George made some ridiculous plays.

I think "poor coach offensively" is a bit over-exagerrated. Indiana seemed about average offensively, but they were also fairly consistently top-10 in point differential. I also dont remember any offensive stars other than PG on that team. kinda hard to make chicken salad with chicken #$@#%

He is a poor offensive coach. Pacers fans have watched him with several variations of teams and he has made each of them top tier defensive teams, but low tier offensive teams. That's not say he's not a good coach, because he is, and he's great for the Magic, but he is poor offensively.

The system was slow as molasses since he became head coach. This is what Bird meant by needing to play faster on offense (not SSOL Suns like many seem to think). That type of offense becomes insanely predictable towards the end of games and leads to end of game plays where the ball is turned over or someone has to shoot a rushed shot. And, while it's a great quality, his belief in his players tended to go too far at times. This lead to CJ Miles chucking up horribly inefficient threes and being encouraged to continue (seriously, some of the shots he took I'd only feel comfortable with Steph taking them).

Vogel was a great hire for where the Magic are at. He's going to make Ibaka/Biyombo even better on defense and he's going to make Vucevic passable on that end. I think he'll also help Gordon make a leap. It's possible his style really helps Payton as well, but I'm not certain there. He will improve the team and he's a big upgrade over Skiles. Nonetheless, he is a poor coach offensively.

I think the Magic have better personnel to play with a high tempo. Still, the Pacers actually had an above average pace this past season. They ranked 11th, the Magic ranked 13th. So the slow as molasses part doesn't seem true. Again, I dont think the Magic will be good offensively at all, but they have some players that can put the ball in the hoop and make plays.

Well the pace is really just possessions per game. We didn't play fast at all, we just had multiple guys who took early shots. Pretty much every rotation guy except George Hill and Ian Mahinmi (and to an extent Monta) were jacking it up once they got it. And I chalk that up to design given that not all of those guys did that in the past and that's how Vogel decided to play up tempo while not sacrificing defense.

[pacers33granger]

seem to remember Indiana giving Miami all they could handle, with just PG and not the greatest support cast against possibly 3 HOF players. That is an extreme upgrade over Skiles.

And our offense is what killed us in each series against Miami. The defense mucked it up enough that we had a shot, but we lost many games because we couldn't even get a shot in the last couple of minutes. It's part of Vogel's style that sacrifices offense for defense and it does win games, but you really need the offense to put games away and that really matters in the playoffs. Really the only reason we actually won some games is because George made some ridiculous plays.

I think "poor coach offensively" is a bit over-exagerrated. Indiana seemed about average offensively, but they were also fairly consistently top-10 in point differential. I also dont remember any offensive stars other than PG on that team. kinda hard to make chicken salad with chicken #$@#%

He is a poor offensive coach. Pacers fans have watched him with several variations of teams and he has made each of them top tier defensive teams, but low tier offensive teams. That's not say he's not a good coach, because he is, and he's great for the Magic, but he is poor offensively.

The system was slow as molasses since he became head coach. This is what Bird meant by needing to play faster on offense (not SSOL Suns like many seem to think). That type of offense becomes insanely predictable towards the end of games and leads to end of game plays where the ball is turned over or someone has to shoot a rushed shot. And, while it's a great quality, his belief in his players tended to go too far at times. This lead to CJ Miles chucking up horribly inefficient threes and being encouraged to continue (seriously, some of the shots he took I'd only feel comfortable with Steph taking them).

Vogel was a great hire for where the Magic are at. He's going to make Ibaka/Biyombo even better on defense and he's going to make Vucevic passable on that end. I think he'll also help Gordon make a leap. It's possible his style really helps Payton as well, but I'm not certain there. He will improve the team and he's a big upgrade over Skiles. Nonetheless, he is a poor coach offensively.

we'll see if he learned. He has different personnel, ones that he cant rely on one person to score points. He also got one of the best asst coaches from the Spurs in Forcier who we hope does wonders with AG, Payton and Hezonja. I still think you criticize Vogel a bit too much, average offense isnt poor imo. And top-10 point differential means wins. I'll take ugly wins.

But the problem, with us at least, is that the offense wasn't average. Sure, some stats peg it as average, but it really wasn't as a system. As I said, part of that is the focus on defense. I have no clue what the setup will be in Orlando, so that remains to be seen and I could easily see him relinquishing the offense to an assistant and it working.

I just believe that if Vogel is running the offense, it is not going to be a good offense and that's based on watching him progress as a coach with multiple different teams. The guy is an elite defensive coach and could make a team of meh defenders into a near elite defensive team. I hope he's progressed on that end and learned from mistakes, I just didn't see it at all on that end during his time in Indy.

[tiderulz]

And our offense is what killed us in each series against Miami. The defense mucked it up enough that we had a shot, but we lost many games because we couldn't even get a shot in the last couple of minutes. It's part of Vogel's style that sacrifices offense for defense and it does win games, but you really need the offense to put games away and that really matters in the playoffs. Really the only reason we actually won some games is because George made some ridiculous plays.



He is a poor offensive coach. Pacers fans have watched him with several variations of teams and he has made each of them top tier defensive teams, but low tier offensive teams. That's not say he's not a good coach, because he is, and he's great for the Magic, but he is poor offensively.

The system was slow as molasses since he became head coach. This is what Bird meant by needing to play faster on offense (not SSOL Suns like many seem to think). That type of offense becomes insanely predictable towards the end of games and leads to end of game plays where the ball is turned over or someone has to shoot a rushed shot. And, while it's a great quality, his belief in his players tended to go too far at times. This lead to CJ Miles chucking up horribly inefficient threes and being encouraged to continue (seriously, some of the shots he took I'd only feel comfortable with Steph taking them).

Vogel was a great hire for where the Magic are at. He's going to make Ibaka/Biyombo even better on defense and he's going to make Vucevic passable on that end. I think he'll also help Gordon make a leap. It's possible his style really helps Payton as well, but I'm not certain there. He will improve the team and he's a big upgrade over Skiles. Nonetheless, he is a poor coach offensively.

we'll see if he learned. He has different personnel, ones that he cant rely on one person to score points. He also got one of the best asst coaches from the Spurs in Forcier who we hope does wonders with AG, Payton and Hezonja. I still think you criticize Vogel a bit too much, average offense isnt poor imo. And top-10 point differential means wins. I'll take ugly wins.

But the problem, with us at least, is that the offense wasn't average. Sure, some stats peg it as average, but it really wasn't as a system. As I said, part of that is the focus on defense. I have no clue what the setup will be in Orlando, so that remains to be seen and I could easily see him relinquishing the offense to an assistant and it working.

I just believe that if Vogel is running the offense, it is not going to be a good offense and that's based on watching him progress as a coach with multiple different teams. The guy is an elite defensive coach and could make a team of meh defenders into a near elite defensive team. I hope he's progressed on that end and learned from mistakes, I just didn't see it at all on that end during his time in Indy.

ok. appreciate the insight and gives us something to keep an eye on. We thought Skiles had turned a corner too, he made all the right statements during his press conferences and then promptly returned to his old ways of making the team turn on him.

[wise1-2]

And our offense is what killed us in each series against Miami. The defense mucked it up enough that we had a shot, but we lost many games because we couldn't even get a shot in the last couple of minutes. It's part of Vogel's style that sacrifices offense for defense and it does win games, but you really need the offense to put games away and that really matters in the playoffs. Really the only reason we actually won some games is because George made some ridiculous plays.



He is a poor offensive coach. Pacers fans have watched him with several variations of teams and he has made each of them top tier defensive teams, but low tier offensive teams. That's not say he's not a good coach, because he is, and he's great for the Magic, but he is poor offensively.

The system was slow as molasses since he became head coach. This is what Bird meant by needing to play faster on offense (not SSOL Suns like many seem to think). That type of offense becomes insanely predictable towards the end of games and leads to end of game plays where the ball is turned over or someone has to shoot a rushed shot. And, while it's a great quality, his belief in his players tended to go too far at times. This lead to CJ Miles chucking up horribly inefficient threes and being encouraged to continue (seriously, some of the shots he took I'd only feel comfortable with Steph taking them).

Vogel was a great hire for where the Magic are at. He's going to make Ibaka/Biyombo even better on defense and he's going to make Vucevic passable on that end. I think he'll also help Gordon make a leap. It's possible his style really helps Payton as well, but I'm not certain there. He will improve the team and he's a big upgrade over Skiles. Nonetheless, he is a poor coach offensively.

I think the Magic have better personnel to play with a high tempo. Still, the Pacers actually had an above average pace this past season. They ranked 11th, the Magic ranked 13th. So the slow as molasses part doesn't seem true. Again, I dont think the Magic will be good offensively at all, but they have some players that can put the ball in the hoop and make plays.

Well the pace is really just possessions per game. We didn't play fast at all, we just had multiple guys who took early shots. Pretty much every rotation guy except George Hill and Ian Mahinmi (and to an extent Monta) were jacking it up once they got it. And I chalk that up to design given that not all of those guys did that in the past and that's how Vogel decided to play up tempo while not sacrificing defense.

I mean I always take every stat with a grain of salt, and to an extent I agree pace is different than tempo. Do you know of any other stat that's more accurate? Sometimes in a high paced offense, you chuck up some shots, and PG has had a tendency to do that. I don't want to get into semantics too much, but it seems if they were 11th highest in possessions than they're probably not "slow as molasses".

I still think the Magic will be good ENOUGH offensively (not necessarily even average). Skiles really taught them how to move the ball. They were top 10 in AST% this past season. The addition of Biyombo and Ibaka doesn't help the ball movement at all, but losing Oladipo and replacing him with Mario and Fournier helps a little. Replacing Tobias with Gordon helps. Adding a legit back up PG helps. Biyombo and Ibaka won't play too many minutes together anyway. It would be stupid not to play Ibaka when Vucevic is in, which he will be for like 28 mpg. So yeah I still think the offensive woes are being overblown. I compared their team last year to ATL earlier and they really were very similar. Basically the same FG%, 3pt%, which was above average. Even FTrate was similar where both were at the bottom. If they can up the tempo and the young guys can make some improvements, the offense will be enough. If Fournier can handle a bigger load he'll score some of Oladipo's points more efficiently. If biyombo allows Vucevic to play significant minutes against backups, Nikola is going to obliterate them and we'll see a pretty significant increase in his efficiency. In the end though its their defense that they need to get them to the play offs. Once their, I trust a great defensive team with bad offense to go farther than a bad defensive team with great offense.

[Illmatic12]

Gordon can handle and pass, ibaka can shoot. They bring different skill sets offensively. Gordon should be more of a slasher. I'm not saying Gordon is going to be an elite scorer, but Skiles never gave him adequate opportunities to show what he can and can't do. When Gordon was let loose in summer league, you could see the pull ups, crossovers, step back jumpers, using picks, all that was on display in summer league last year. I know its summer league and people will just dismiss it, but he was also only 19. I advise you to watch the highlights and see what he's one day capable of. He's only 20 years old today. Only 8 months older than Simmons. When Ibaka is at PF and Gordon is being guarded by a SF, he's actually more likely to be nearer to the basket. At PF he usually starts at the perimeter and tries to use his quickness to beat PFs, but in order to do that, he needs to hit some perimeter shots so defenders don't sag off too much. At SF he can punish weaker opponents with his size, athleticism and strength. We'll see what he's capable of, but he claims he feels more comfortable playing SF, and I think he has the tools to be very effective at that position. I think he has a lot of potential in him. When Kawhi was his age the VAST majority did not see him developing into a legit go to scorer. Same for Paul George and Jimmy Butler. Not that I'm saying he'll be as good as those guys offensively, just that they weren't considered good shot creators early in their careers. I'm more confident in his development than ever after the Magic hired Forcier, who was working with Kawhi to help him become the monster that he is today.

Ibaka really just needs to finish plays. He'll get a good amount of open looks from Vucevic's post offense alone, and Payton and Fournier are capable of getting to the paint. Ibaka should be able to post up SFs as well if they switch on him, but other than that I don't think he'll be creating his own shot. Again, as far as offense goes, their issues have always been overblown. They weren't as bad last year as people make them out to be. They won't be good on that end, but as I've proven already, that's not necessary if you have great defense.

I also think Vucevic is going to be better than ever defensively. He has a great defensive coach, a great back up, less pressure with less minutes, a great PF defender alongside him, ect. When he's struggling to stop a LeBron James penetration, Biyombo takes over. So he won't get torched as much as he used to. Still, he wasn't nearly as bad defensively last year as most people like to think. He made solid improvements on that end, and could again next season. I also think he'll be getting closer to 28 mpg.

I watched Gordon in summer league both years and saw a lot of Magic games throughout the season, I've seen him progress. But summer league competition is mostly players who will be playing in Europe or working 9-5 jobs in 5 years. Playing lesser competition is one thing, it's another level when you're facing the best defenders and smartest defensive schemes in the world.

Iirc Gordon was doing a bunch of crazy stuff in his HS mixtapes as well - but it didn't translate to his season as Arizona where he was knocked for looking 'lost' on offense at times (not a 1-to-1 comparison to players like George, Butler, Leonard who had some track record as #1 options on their college teams). You may be underrating how difficult it actually is to be a high-level perimeter player against set, half-court defenses. The timing is different, the way you read the game and speed of decision making is different. Essentially it's a whole different mentality/skillset to develop and like you said yourself - the kid is only 20yo. So whatever longterm upside he may have isn't likely to be realized immediately, right?

Gordon can still have a perfectly good season for a player his age and show improvement, but not necessarily be so good that he really elevates the team's offense (which is what I expect, unless his outside shooting takes a major leap).

Idk.. you're saying the offensive issues last year were overblown, but the Magic's offense isn't guaranteed to be better that what it was last year (#21). After all, they swapped out a player who could create offense for two who cannot. Oladipo had his decision-making issues, but he was one of the few Magic players who could break down a set defense and create something. Without dynamic playmakers/creators, a lineup tends toward lacking offensive rhythm and will be less than the sum of its parts - which we saw last season. I think you'll be unfortunately surprised how often Ibaka ends up in awkward situations where he's forced to create his own shot.

Anyways, I've found the Magic entertaining and watched a lot of games the past two years. So I'm not just speaking as someone who read a few articles or something without watching. No, I actually watched many of those excrutiating games last season where they played hard but blew the game in the last 5 minutes. I saw Vaughn and then Skiles lack of development and how Skiles refused to be creative with lineups, or put Gordon and Hezonja in situations where they could grow. This is my take from watching the team and their recent moves . Orlando's defense should be clearly improved, but I don't believe they solved their offensive issues that led to them to blowing so many of those games. I still see a major weakness there that could keep them out of the playoffs again. But we'll have to wait and see how things go, maybe I'm completely wrong and the Magic take an unexpected leap - that's the fun of watching the games.

[wise1-2]

Gordon can handle and pass, ibaka can shoot. They bring different skill sets offensively. Gordon should be more of a slasher. I'm not saying Gordon is going to be an elite scorer, but Skiles never gave him adequate opportunities to show what he can and can't do. When Gordon was let loose in summer league, you could see the pull ups, crossovers, step back jumpers, using picks, all that was on display in summer league last year. I know its summer league and people will just dismiss it, but he was also only 19. I advise you to watch the highlights and see what he's one day capable of. He's only 20 years old today. Only 8 months older than Simmons. When Ibaka is at PF and Gordon is being guarded by a SF, he's actually more likely to be nearer to the basket. At PF he usually starts at the perimeter and tries to use his quickness to beat PFs, but in order to do that, he needs to hit some perimeter shots so defenders don't sag off too much. At SF he can punish weaker opponents with his size, athleticism and strength. We'll see what he's capable of, but he claims he feels more comfortable playing SF, and I think he has the tools to be very effective at that position. I think he has a lot of potential in him. When Kawhi was his age the VAST majority did not see him developing into a legit go to scorer. Same for Paul George and Jimmy Butler. Not that I'm saying he'll be as good as those guys offensively, just that they weren't considered good shot creators early in their careers. I'm more confident in his development than ever after the Magic hired Forcier, who was working with Kawhi to help him become the monster that he is today.

Ibaka really just needs to finish plays. He'll get a good amount of open looks from Vucevic's post offense alone, and Payton and Fournier are capable of getting to the paint. Ibaka should be able to post up SFs as well if they switch on him, but other than that I don't think he'll be creating his own shot. Again, as far as offense goes, their issues have always been overblown. They weren't as bad last year as people make them out to be. They won't be good on that end, but as I've proven already, that's not necessary if you have great defense.

I also think Vucevic is going to be better than ever defensively. He has a great defensive coach, a great back up, less pressure with less minutes, a great PF defender alongside him, ect. When he's struggling to stop a LeBron James penetration, Biyombo takes over. So he won't get torched as much as he used to. Still, he wasn't nearly as bad defensively last year as most people like to think. He made solid improvements on that end, and could again next season. I also think he'll be getting closer to 28 mpg.

I watched Gordon in summer league both years and saw a lot of Magic games throughout the season, I've seen him progress. But summer league competition is mostly players who will be playing in Europe or working 9-5 jobs in 5 years. Playing lesser competition is one thing, it's another level when you're facing the best defenders and smartest defensive schemes in the world.

Iirc Gordon was doing a bunch of crazy stuff in his HS mixtapes as well - but it didn't translate to his season as Arizona where he was knocked for looking 'lost' on offense at times (not a 1-to-1 comparison to players like George, Butler, Leonard who had some track record as #1 options on their college teams). You may be underrating how difficult it actually is to be a high-level perimeter player against set, half-court defenses. The timing is different, the way you read the game and speed of decision making is different. Essentially it's a whole different mentality/skillset to develop and like you said yourself - the kid is only 20yo. So whatever longterm upside he may have isn't likely to be realized immediately, right?

Gordon can still have a perfectly good season for a player his age and show improvement, but not necessarily be so good that he really elevates the team's offense (which is what I expect, unless his outside shooting takes a major leap).

Idk.. you're saying the offensive issues last year were overblown, but the Magic's offense isn't guaranteed to be better that what it was last year (#21). After all, they swapped out a player who could create offense for two who cannot. Oladipo had his decision-making issues, but he was one of the few Magic players who could break down a set defense and create something. Without dynamic playmakers/creators, a lineup tends toward lacking offensive rhythm and will be less than the sum of its parts - which we saw last season. I think you'll be unfortunately surprised how often Ibaka ends up in awkward situations where he's forced to create his own shot.

Anyways, I've found the Magic entertaining and watched a lot of games the past two years. So I'm not just speaking as someone who read a few articles or something without watching. No, I actually watched many of those excrutiating games last season where they played hard but blew the game in the last 5 minutes. I saw Vaughn and then Skiles lack of development and how Skiles refused to be creative with lineups, or put Gordon and Hezonja in situations where they could grow. This is my take from watching the team and their recent moves . Orlando's defense should be clearly improved, but I don't believe they solved their offensive issues that led to them to blowing so many of those games. I still see a major weakness there that could keep them out of the playoffs again. But we'll have to wait and see how things go, maybe I'm completely wrong and the Magic take an unexpected leap - that's the fun of watching the games.

I understand its not going to come together all of a sudden. I think he'll slowly start to realise his offensive potential, but he's not going to play the same role as he was last year. Vogel specifically said he will be putting the ball in his hands. I just think he flashed his potential last season, but he didn't get consistent touches. This year he'll get more opportunities to put his full talent on display. If the Magic were a 20 win team, they would've allowed Gordon to showcase his skills more often last year, but they were trying to make the play offs and had other guys who could score and create. With another year of experience, and the addition of Vogel, I think for most fans it'll SEEM like he made a huge jump. In reality the skills were always there, just a little raw. Obviously I'm not saying he's going to be great next year, just that people will be surprised at what he can do. From their he will continue to develop. I do think he'll be able to create and run a pick n roll/pop. Its like how midseason Giannis suddenly doubled his APG. He had the skills from the beginning of the season to do that. He just needed opportunities and to get eased into that role. And no, before people jump in with the criticisms, I'm not saying Gordon will average 7 APG. I also don't think the explosion will be quite as big (again seeing how AG is still very young)

I dont think Gordon will have a huge impact on the offense either. If he can impact the offense as much as Tobias did then he's done very well, because the defense will be much better. Gordon can get a lot of points just off his hustle. I also never claimed we'll be better than last year offensively. I specifically said that I dont think the offense will be much worse if at all. Like I said, I don't think the offense has to be better than last year to make the play offs (see my earlier post a page or two back). Even if they remain the same offensively and dramatically improve their defense to top 5, they'll have themselves a play off team(again, all in my previous posts). I say their offensive issues are being overblown because some people act like the Magic can't make a shot and are just terrible all around offensively, and therefore a bad team. They act like they're so far behind the rest of the league, it won't matter how good they are defensively.

I agree losing victor is going to hurt our offense a because he's a play maker, but I think we'll have better spacing, better offensive rebounding, added roll men, and the faster tempo should help mitigate the effect of that loss. I think Payton will improve as well. He did his best to adjust to skiles, but if Vogel uses him well, he's capable of 13-8 this season. He should have much better spacing with Fournier, ibaka, and Vucevic. We added players that play without the ball, and will now put the ball in his hands more often. That's where he's at his best. I also think late game defense was just as big of a problem as late game offense.

I think my expectations aren't too high. I mean even Smitty predicted them winning 43 games, so I dont think I'm being unreasonable. Maybe a little optimistic, but not unreasonable.

[watpho71]

I gave them a higher off-season grade than Charlotte or Washington because they actually made some significant moves to improve their team, not that they will have more wins at season's end.

It really is the most interesting roster to see what will develop over training camp and into the first week of the season. So much has already been stated by coaches and management about the state of the starting line up and I think their excitement weens into these statements that drizzle out into the media. You can only start five players and it seems seven or eight have been pronounced starters already. Management, take your chill pills. That being said, I can't wait to see this team play. They have the potential to be a playoff team, but I just don't see it playing out that way next season.

I know Gordon is the most beloved player on the team, but I don't see him as a starter for this group. Vucevic says he's the starter, but some say they brought in Biyombo to start. I'm sure during the meetings to sign Jeff Green he must have been promised a starting gig. Nonetheless, I like this team. I am still a believer in this Payton kid, something special about him. Maybe it's that he reminds me of Rod Strickland (RS could finish at the rim though).

My projected starting line up for the Magic (and I'm probably the only one - and that's okay):
Payton, Fournier, Green, Ibaka, Vucevic.

[tiderulz]

I gave them a higher off-season grade than Charlotte or Washington because they actually made some significant moves to improve their team, not that they will have more wins at season's end.

It really is the most interesting roster to see what will develop over training camp and into the first week of the season. So much has already been stated by coaches and management about the state of the starting line up and I think their excitement weens into these statements that drizzle out into the media. You can only start five players and it seems seven or eight have been pronounced starters already. Management, take your chill pills. That being said, I can't wait to see this team play. They have the potential to be a playoff team, but I just don't see it playing out that way next season.

I know Gordon is the most beloved player on the team, but I don't see him as a starter for this group. Vucevic says he's the starter, but some say they brought in Biyombo to start. I'm sure during the meetings to sign Jeff Green he must have been promised a starting gig. Nonetheless, I like this team. I am still a believer in this Payton kid, something special about him. Maybe it's that he reminds me of Rod Strickland (RS could finish at the rim though).

My projected starting line up for the Magic (and I'm probably the only one - and that's okay):
Payton, Fournier, Green, Ibaka, Vucevic.

no way Green starts. Gordon starts at SF until he shows that he cant.

[Texas Chuck]

I still think fans don't always fully grasp how hard it is to win with a really young team. Take my Mavs. Every year they fail in free agency and scramble around and add 2nd and 3rd tier veterans to the roster. And every pre-season they are picked to miss the playoffs and are ranked as having the 2nd worst assets behind the Nets.

And yet every year there they are in the playoffs again. And why? It's not that they are one of the 8 most talented teams in the West---I mean who would take their roster over Utah for instance? And its not just that Rick Carlisle is a wizard--tho that helps. Nope. It's that they largely depend on veterans. And veterans win in this league.

Orlando is still depending on some very unproven guys. I hope Gordon and Mario and Payton take the huge strides they need to in order to make the playoffs, but that is far from a given. Magic fans need to have patient expectations for this upcoming season. The concerns being shared by outsiders about the offense aren't about hating the Magic players, but simply an honest evaluation of the situation. It's going to be a struggle.

[pacers33granger]

ok. appreciate the insight and gives us something to keep an eye on. We thought Skiles had turned a corner too, he made all the right statements during his press conferences and then promptly returned to his old ways of making the team turn on him.

No matter what I don't see how Vogel isn't a massive upgrade from Skiles. And in no way do I want to diminish what he's good at. He will make his players believe in themselves (a double edged sword at times as I pointed out earlier - for us at least it led to chucking that should have been curbed), he will make the team play hard, and he will make everyone better on defense. He's very well liked by his players, which should be refreshing for fans and the players themselves.

There's a ton to like for Orlando with Vogel. Will just be very interesting to see how the offense functions. One thing to keep a keen eye imo is out of bounds plays. It was something that we were rarely, if ever, able to get a clean look out of which lost us close games. (as I said before, the offense was largely predictable). Having a former Spurs assistant on staff though could go a long ways to helping that by getting more ball movement and quicker hits though.

[Magic_Johnny12]

I gave them a higher off-season grade than Charlotte or Washington because they actually made some significant moves to improve their team, not that they will have more wins at season's end.

It really is the most interesting roster to see what will develop over training camp and into the first week of the season. So much has already been stated by coaches and management about the state of the starting line up and I think their excitement weens into these statements that drizzle out into the media. You can only start five players and it seems seven or eight have been pronounced starters already. Management, take your chill pills. That being said, I can't wait to see this team play. They have the potential to be a playoff team, but I just don't see it playing out that way next season.

I know Gordon is the most beloved player on the team, but I don't see him as a starter for this group. Vucevic says he's the starter, but some say they brought in Biyombo to start. I'm sure during the meetings to sign Jeff Green he must have been promised a starting gig. Nonetheless, I like this team. I am still a believer in this Payton kid, something special about him. Maybe it's that he reminds me of Rod Strickland (RS could finish at the rim though).

My projected starting line up for the Magic (and I'm probably the only one - and that's okay):
Payton, Fournier, Green, Ibaka, Vucevic.

A 1yr 15 m deal doesn't scream "starting gig" to me especially in a league that 36 yr old Jamal Crawford is getting 14m per.

[Smitty731]

Not that you get everything on the level from teams, but the Magic were very (VERY) clear that Aaron Gordon would start at SF. And they were also very clear that no one on the team has been promised any sort of role. The closest they came to saying that was for Ibaka and Fournier at PF and SG.

Green is seen as a versatile backup that can play 2-4 depending on the matchups. He's not going to start unless Gordon completely fails at SF and/or injuries crop up.