Boston Early Offseason in Review (HW/Slava/bondom34/Mamba4goat)

Moderators: Texas Chuck, BullyKing, Andre Roberstan, loserX, Trader_Joe, Mamba4Goat, pacers33granger, MoneyTalks41890, HartfordWhalers

Grade the Boston offseason

A+
21
17%
A
31
25%
A-
20
16%
B+
23
18%
B
9
7%
B-
4
3%
C+
9
7%
C
3
2%
D
1
1%
F
5
4%
 
Total votes: 126

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Re: Boston Early Offseason in Review (HW/Slava/bondom34/Mamba4goat) 

Post#181 » by HartfordWhalers » Thu Aug 3, 2017 10:29 am

williambh3 wrote:An A+ would have been getting Hayward and Butler or George for similar value to the package they fetched, but that was always going to be tricky with the lower cap, and the bulls and pacers appear to have been in a rush and/or incompetent, or maybe Danny just blew it.

Getting Hayward for 3 yrs is >>> trading assets for Butler or George and not getting Hayward. Unless you think a Bradley/Olynyk S&T was getting it done.

Great move keeping Crowder, love that guy.

Would have rather traded Smart for a pick than Bradley, but I thought getting a win now piece on a good deal was solid and keeping Smart is a low cost option on him magically learning how to score.

Hope Brown and Tatum make Morris expendable by next offseason anyway.

Nobody knows what Brown is, but he was better than I expected as a rookie after watching him a lot at Cal (Pac-12 fan). Take a look at Butler, George and Hayward's rookie years - it means nothing.

Why give minutes to mediocre/crappy vets like Amir, Zeller, Green, Jerebko when you can give them to mediocre/crappy youngsters with the talent to be really good?

Rebounding is still an issue, but Baynes/Zizic will help in place of Amir/Zeller for those minutes. I would have rather gotten Gobert, AD or KAT obviously, but improvement is improvement.

Boston will play a lot of 3-wing but also continue to play two bigs for stretches with Horford at PF as they did last year, not sure what's weird about that.

Loved the Philly trade, but I was never a Fultz guy to begin with. I watched him a lot and he's clearly talented, but I just don't get how he's going to be that efficient. Plus you get to pick your college team, and he picked a terrible one... that still managed to underperform expectations. They weren't just mediocre, they were egregious - I just don't get how that happens with an elite lead guard. They went 2-16 and the bottom of the PAC was baaaaaad.

So 1 to 3 wasn't a big spread for me, and the whole top 5 next year is more intriguing to me at this point than Fultz, so definitely worth the gamble that LAL will be bad again.

I would have preferred Isaac but 1-7 (sub DSJ for Markannan) was really close for me.

Hayward signing - A
Philly trade - A
Tatum pick - B
Bradley trade - B
Other moves (Baynes, Ojeleye, Theis) - B

A-
Overall since the Hayward and Philly deals were by far the highest impact.

But I can understand the argument for bumping it down to B+ for missing out on Butler/George.

As for wins, it may not be that different but I bet point differential improves by a point or two, the matchup with Cleveland in the ECF goes at least 6, and they are in position to be favorites to make the finals in 2018-19.


Just wanted to say that I really appreciate all the time put into this review, and hope you spend more time on the trade board.
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Re: Boston Early Offseason in Review (HW/Slava/bondom34/Mamba4goat) 

Post#182 » by patman52 » Thu Aug 3, 2017 10:32 am

bondom34 wrote:
nykballa2k4 wrote:I think the off-season was a B. Ultimately the team is obviously better and nothing is broken, but is the team any closer to the NBA finals? Treading water for me is a C, the big addition of Hayward and the solid looking draft makes this a B. What would have made it an A for me would have been moving Horford for a center who is a better rebounder.

All of this.


Again, it is not competing for this Ring this year. It is taking incremental steps towards that goal.
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Re: Boston Early Offseason in Review (HW/Slava/bondom34/Mamba4goat) 

Post#183 » by SmartWentCrazy » Thu Aug 3, 2017 11:32 am

bondom34 wrote:One last ost:

http://www.espn.com/nba/insider/story/_/id/20222412/nba-2017-eastern-conference-offseason-grades

Boston Celtics: B+


The Celtics landed the big prize in free agency, convincing Gordon Hayward to pick them over the Miami Heat and the incumbent Utah Jazz. Because the cap came in lower than expected, clearing room for Hayward required Boston to part with a key player. The Celtics chose to trade ace individual defender Avery Bradley for Marcus Morris, a swap that is a financial upgrade and better balances the roster but still might be painful in the playoffs.

Signing Hayward spared Boston harsher criticism for losing out on potential trades for Jimmy Butler and Paul George. It's unclear whether dealing for George would have been worth the price because of his ability to leave next summer, but the cost for Butler probably would have been more reasonable with two years left on his deal.

The Celtics also will be graded long term on whether Jayson Tatum is good enough to justify trading down from No. 1 to No. 3. Despite Tatum's prolific scoring in summer-league play, I'm still somewhat skeptical.


I'm done.


I don't have insider, so I'm judging everything by this tweet, but it appears that he gave the Celtics his best offseason rank in the East:

Read on Twitter


So I'm not sure if KP is the best source to support your position.
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Re: Boston Early Offseason in Review (HW/Slava/bondom34/Mamba4goat) 

Post#184 » by HartfordWhalers » Thu Aug 3, 2017 1:11 pm

SmartWentCrazy wrote:So I'm not sure if KP is the best source to support your position.



Pelton's grades top to bottom:
A+:
GS, Houston, OKC
A:
Dallas, Minnesota
A-:
Denver, Lakers
B+:
Boston, Charlotte, Philly

So, he has Boston as a top 10 offseason and not a top 7 offseason. Seems a little more negative than our reviewers in general (which averaged an A-), but Pelton is a a really smart guy, so I think we should listen and be open to the fact that we may have been too positive.

Signing Hayward spared Boston harsher criticism for losing out on potential trades for Jimmy Butler and Paul George. It's unclear whether dealing for George would have been worth the price because of his ability to leave next summer, but the cost for Butler probably would have been more reasonable with two years left on his deal.

The Celtics will also be graded long term on whether Jayson Tatum is good enough to justify trading down from No. 1 to No. 3. Despite Tatum's prolific scoring in summer-league play, I'm still somewhat skeptical.
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Re: Boston Early Offseason in Review (HW/Slava/bondom34/Mamba4goat) 

Post#185 » by BullyKing » Thu Aug 3, 2017 1:40 pm

HartfordWhalers wrote:
SmartWentCrazy wrote:So I'm not sure if KP is the best source to support your position.



Pelton's grades top to bottom:
A+:
GS, Houston, OKC
A:
Dallas, Minnesota
A-:
Denver, Lakers
B+:
Boston, Charlotte, Philly

So, he has Boston as a top 10 offseason and not a top 7 offseason. Seems a little more negative than our reviewers in general (which averaged an A-), but Pelton is a a really smart guy, so I think we should listen and be open to the fact that we may have been too positive.

Signing Hayward spared Boston harsher criticism for losing out on potential trades for Jimmy Butler and Paul George. It's unclear whether dealing for George would have been worth the price because of his ability to leave next summer, but the cost for Butler probably would have been more reasonable with two years left on his deal.

The Celtics will also be graded long term on whether Jayson Tatum is good enough to justify trading down from No. 1 to No. 3. Despite Tatum's prolific scoring in summer-league play, I'm still somewhat skeptical.


For further reference, both of the Dunc' On guys gave Boston a C- (I think, might have been a C+).
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Re: Boston Early Offseason in Review (HW/Slava/bondom34/Mamba4goat) 

Post#186 » by SmartWentCrazy » Thu Aug 3, 2017 1:57 pm

BullyKing wrote:
HartfordWhalers wrote:
SmartWentCrazy wrote:So I'm not sure if KP is the best source to support your position.



Pelton's grades top to bottom:
A+:
GS, Houston, OKC
A:
Dallas, Minnesota
A-:
Denver, Lakers
B+:
Boston, Charlotte, Philly

So, he has Boston as a top 10 offseason and not a top 7 offseason. Seems a little more negative than our reviewers in general (which averaged an A-), but Pelton is a a really smart guy, so I think we should listen and be open to the fact that we may have been too positive.

Signing Hayward spared Boston harsher criticism for losing out on potential trades for Jimmy Butler and Paul George. It's unclear whether dealing for George would have been worth the price because of his ability to leave next summer, but the cost for Butler probably would have been more reasonable with two years left on his deal.

The Celtics will also be graded long term on whether Jayson Tatum is good enough to justify trading down from No. 1 to No. 3. Despite Tatum's prolific scoring in summer-league play, I'm still somewhat skeptical.


For further reference, both of the Dunc' On guys gave Boston a C- (I think, might have been a C+).


They both gave them C-'s and argued they got worse both in the short term and in the long term.

Seems kinda weird how they argued left and right that the Celtics desperately need a consolidation trade, then they essentially do so by trading Bradley/Olynyk/Johnson for Hayward/Morris, and then to crush the Celtics for taking the path they long argued for. Oh well.

I can get not liking aspects of their offseason. I can understand preferring Fultz long term over Tatum/LAL-SAC pick. I can get criticism's regarding rebounding. I do not understand the argument that the team will be worse next season.
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Re: Boston Early Offseason in Review (HW/Slava/bondom34/Mamba4goat) 

Post#187 » by FNQ » Thu Aug 3, 2017 6:42 pm

I'd give them an A-

First off, I dont think they get credit, in this offseason, for getting the #1 pick. That credit was given when they absolutely fleeced the Nets, so what they did with the pick is what mattered. Now, I *do* see a big difference between Fultz and Tatum. Players like Tatum, IMO, have to be managed carefully - the second you allow a good, but not elite, iso scorer to take the reigns of a team and earn buku bucks, you get guys with careers like Barnes, Gay, Melo. Fortunately for the Celts, they have such a massive amount of talent around them, especially defensively, that they can potentially manage Tatum accordingly. That said, I think Fultz would have been better simply because I wouldnt want to give IT his next contract, and they should have had a backup plan - I dont think Smart or Rozier qualifies, at all. And with Jaylen Brown, Crowder, Hayward, and Morris all able to play SF already, I dont know that that the LAL/SAC pick justifies the move. That said, the Lakers have to finish in the bottom 2 for the pick to likely convey, and I think teams like the Knicks, Nets, Kings, Hawks, Bulls, and Pacers will provide some competition at the bottom. Only thing that draws me off an A+ grade for them.

Getting Hayward was excellent.. even getting solid value for Bradley was a good move. But leaving 2 stars on the table, both of whom I'd take ahead of Hayward (PG, Butler) and choosing Tatum + a likely lotto 1st in 2018/19 over Fultz - and thus likely committing to Isaiah Thomas for the future, as there are minimal PGs atop the 2018 draft right now - brings it down for me.

Re: Jaylen - I'm biased as a Cal guy, but I liked what he showed last year, which is another reason the Tatum pick wasn't a good one for me (besides not liking iso-based guys, his passing and spot-shooting leave a lot to be desired, though both can improve). Think Jaylen could eventually be a better version of Jae Crowder, which I think carries more ability to translate across different styles of play. I dont think there's superstar potential there, think superstars have to be able to create for their teammates more than Jaylen has ever shown at this point.. but I still think the potential upside is massive here.
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Re: Boston Early Offseason in Review (HW/Slava/bondom34/Mamba4goat) 

Post#188 » by HartfordWhalers » Thu Aug 3, 2017 6:48 pm

SmartWentCrazy wrote:So I'm not sure if KP is the best source to support your position.


Eastern Conference

1. Boston Celtics
Projected wins: 49.4

After they won 53 games to claim the top seed in the East last season, why aren't the Celtics projected to improve with the addition of Hayward? First, they outperformed their plus-2.6 point differential, which is more typical of a 48-win team. Boston also benefited from opponents shooting 33.2 percent from 3-point range, the league's second-lowest mark. Both categories tend to regress heavily to the mean, so the Celtics would have been in for a steeper decline had they not added Hayward. Still, given that Boston didn't have that same good fortune in the playoffs, the Celtics should be improved when it really counts.


http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/20225286/projected-records-win-totals-standings-every-nba-team-2017-18-season

Pelton is apparently also backing even less wins than our panel.
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Re: Boston Early Offseason in Review (HW/Slava/bondom34/Mamba4goat) 

Post#189 » by Golabki » Thu Aug 3, 2017 8:40 pm

SmartWentCrazy wrote:
BullyKing wrote:
HartfordWhalers wrote:

Pelton's grades top to bottom:
A+:
GS, Houston, OKC
A:
Dallas, Minnesota
A-:
Denver, Lakers
B+:
Boston, Charlotte, Philly

So, he has Boston as a top 10 offseason and not a top 7 offseason. Seems a little more negative than our reviewers in general (which averaged an A-), but Pelton is a a really smart guy, so I think we should listen and be open to the fact that we may have been too positive.



For further reference, both of the Dunc' On guys gave Boston a C- (I think, might have been a C+).


They both gave them C-'s and argued they got worse both in the short term and in the long term.

Seems kinda weird how they argued left and right that the Celtics desperately need a consolidation trade, then they essentially do so by trading Bradley/Olynyk/Johnson for Hayward/Morris, and then to crush the Celtics for taking the path they long argued for. Oh well.

I can get not liking aspects of their offseason. I can understand preferring Fultz long term over Tatum/LAL-SAC pick. I can get criticism's regarding rebounding. I do not understand the argument that the team will be worse next season.

I'd site a couple quibbles with the dunc'd on guys:

1. I didn't love the Fultz / Tatum + pick swap. I thought they should have been able to get the pick without #1 overall protection. But I didn't like Fultz as much as some, and more over, the error bars on that assessment are HUGE so I don't think it should be viewed as a huge demerit. Even if you think Fultz is significantly better than Tatum (which I due), what's more likely, Fultz becomes a super star that makes this a crushing trade for the celtics, or Tatum turns out to be the better player? More over, Ainge may be the only exec in the NBA with the balls to do something like this, so even if you don't agree with it you have to respect the organizational strength to do it.

2. They seemed to give the Celtics very little credit for landing the #1 FA, which is a bit odd. They focused on lot more on the fact that they think Bradley is a big loss, than the fact that it was really a Hayward + Morris + 2nd for Bradley swap.

3. They seem to be giving a lot of demerits to the Celtics for not taking advantage of the Bulls and Pacers making horrifyingly bad trades. I think those missed opportunities are a totally fair reason not to give them an "A", but I don't think you should seriously downgrade Ainge because Gar/Pax and Pritchard were really dumb.

4. They mentioned that the celtics don't have enough versatility at center... which strikes me as just dumb. They have a tradition physical big in Baynes, a classic modern stretch 5 in Horford, and they have so many good wings with size they are one of the very few teams that can play good defensive combo forwards at the 3/4/5 all at the same time. I expect to see those line ups a lot in the playoffs (Smart/Brown/Hayward/Crowder/Morris is one of the most interesting potential lineups in the NBA). It would be nice if they had more of a long athletic defensive big like Dedmon, but that's a 10 mpg role in the playoffs, so it seems like a pretty minor point.

In the end if you give them a C- you are really putting a lot of confidence in your evaluation of Fultz and your assumptions about what Chicago and Indy would have been willing to do. I would say that confidence is unwarranted.
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Re: Boston Early Offseason in Review (HW/Slava/bondom34/Mamba4goat) 

Post#190 » by nykballa2k4 » Thu Aug 3, 2017 8:49 pm

patman52 wrote:
bondom34 wrote:
nykballa2k4 wrote:I think the off-season was a B. Ultimately the team is obviously better and nothing is broken, but is the team any closer to the NBA finals? Treading water for me is a C, the big addition of Hayward and the solid looking draft makes this a B. What would have made it an A for me would have been moving Horford for a center who is a better rebounder.

All of this.


Again, it is not competing for this Ring this year. It is taking incremental steps towards that goal.


The window for all of the Nets and Celtics picks to reach a peak likely begins in 2020. Did the deals that were done this summer greatly improve that season?

Right now I see Bradley moved, Smart due for an extension. Thomas due for an extension, Horford getting older and becoming a man without a position since he performs poorly against other C's. Moving down from #1 to #3 plus an extra pick could be great, it could also be one of the biggest mistakes of all time (if Fultz or Ball becomes a superstar). I just don't see any way that this off-season can be an A.
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Re: Boston Early Offseason in Review (HW/Slava/bondom34/Mamba4goat) 

Post#191 » by Djh7475 » Thu Aug 3, 2017 8:50 pm

As someone who has fully embraced the way the Warriors have built their roster (first through the draft and with smart contracts/trades, then following through with some major FA acquisitions like Iggy and obviously KD), I am perfectly happy with the way the Celtics have handled the last several offseasons. I'm not only a fan of the way the Warriors built their roster, but the type of roster they've built (a few guards, a few meh big men, and a boatload of versatile positionless players that can hit the 3 and defend). That's why I'm excited about the fact that the Celtics are fully embracing positionless basketball.

After being short on versatile wings the last few years, the Celtics are suddenly overflowing with them. After having literally 1 guy that could create his own shot last year, the Celtics added Hayward, Morris, Tatum, and a year of development to Jaylen's game. Rather than giving up assets or cap space to sign a big man who would be a liability late in the playoffs just so that we could improve our rebounding ability, we brought in Zizic and Baynes for next to nothing. We not only kept all of our assets, but we added another premier draft pick and landed an allstar on top of it.

While some people knock the Celtics for not trading for Paul George because of how cheap he came (I think Jimmy would've cost us #3, AB, Crowder, and Smart to make the money/assets work so I was good with passing on that on draft night until we heard from Hayward), I don't think people realize how difficult it would've been to land Hayward and Paul George without gutting the roster. We don't have an overpaid player like Oladipo to make a deal simple, so we would've had to give up AB, Crowder, Smart, Rozier, and the cap space we used on Baynes just to make the money work.

Then next year, we be looking at a situation where we'd have $120M dedicated to 4 players with several high draft picks making $6-7M/year. Our tax bill would've gotten out of hand even if we only had IT, PG, Hayward, Horford, rookie contracts, and minimum players on the roster. As it stands, keeping Crowder on his ridiculously cheap 3 year deal, Rozier with 2 years left on his rookie deal, and after trading AB for Morris on a crazy cheap 2 year deal was by far the best thing we could've done financially. Those 3 guys could all play substantial roles for the Celtics while making a combined $14M/year for the next 2 years (versus PG making $30M or AB making $25ishM on his next deal).

Assuming Smart's contract comes in around $10M/year, Smart, Rozier, Crowder, and Morris combined would make around what AB likely gets on his next deal and substantially less than PG is likely to command (if he had even stayed - if he left, we would've gutted the good contracts from the roster for 1 year with most likely the same outcome). I get that the NBA is a star-driven league, but after picking up Hayward and spending 2 #3 picks on wings while Crowder, Morris, Ojeleye, and Nader give us a ton of present/future contributors on the wing, I think sending out enough money to bring Paul George in AND clear cap space for Hayward could've hurt us more than it helped.

I understand ownership will pay the tax, but it'd be smarter to put off insane tax bills until the the Warriors have to resign Klay (and Draymond will be due for a massive raise the following offseason). I don't see any financially feasible way for the Warriors to remain in tact for more than 2 more years, so Ainge would be wise to wait for our spending spree to occur AFTER the Warriors are forced to part ways with Klay or Draymond. We obviously shouldn't pack it in because injuries do happen, but the Celtics have literally played the last several offseasons as well as I could've reasonably hoped.

Rather than going all-in to lose to an all-time elite team in the finals, we've continued to add stars, elite young talent, AND future assets. Ainge has literally acquired an all-star for NOTHING the last 3 seasons (IT acquired with a late 1st we received for a trade exception, Horford and Hayward acquired with cap space). He's also added 2 #3 picks, high end role players on absurd bargain contracts, a ton of versatile prospects with upside to fill up the bench, and he somehow has 2 high draft picks coming over the next 2 years, a Memphis pick that could turn into a late lottery pick in 2 years, a Clippers pick that looks locked into the mid 1st round range, and we still own all of our own future 1sts.

If Ainge wasn't trying to build a contender during a time where the cap spike followed by a cap drop and a more difficult CBA made it impossible to catch one of the best teams in NBA history, I'd knock points off for him not being more aggressive. However, we are one of the 3-4 teams in the NBA that could win a title if one of the Warrior stars goes down with an injury, and we still have one of the best young cores in basketball with more reinforcements on the way.

With all of the contenders or near contenders around the NBA capped out for the forseeable future, we are also the most logical destination for superstar free agents. That sounds dumb because we are capped out for a while as well, but other contenders don't have the assets or tradable contracts necessary to facilitate a sign-and-trade for a superstar without gutting the roster. We are also the premier landing spot for superstar free agents, but I don't mind Ainge being patient and waiting for the door to close a little bit more on the Warriors domination.

All in all, Ainge has built one of the top 3-5 teams in the NBA, he's got more assets and young stars than any team in the league, he's maintained our flexibility to trade or acquire a player via S&T, and he's guaranteed that the Celtics will be extremely relevant for the next 6-7 years. If the Nets and Lakers give us 2 top 5 picks next year while Smart, Rozier, Jaylen, and Tatum take major leaps in their games, people will be talking about the Celtics in a few years the same way everyone currently talks about the Warriors.

If we land 2 of Porter/Ayton/Bamba/Bagley while Jaylen & Tatum look like stars in the making, we could win a title in a few years without even hitting our peak until a few years later. For everyone saying that OKC got an A+ for this offseason, what happens if Russ and PG walk next offseason? What is their ceiling regardless? How does their future look? What kind of flexibility do they have to get better? The Rockets have gotten a ton of A+'s as well, but all they did was build a team whose window lines up directly with the Warriors' around 2 players that will have a tough time coexisting. They are going to be in brutal shape in a few years without a title to justify it.

I give Ainge an A+. If I didn't intend to be a Celtics fan in 10 years, that probably wouldn't be the case. However, Ainge has shown the type of patience most fanbases wish their GM's were capable of. Also, we still haven't seen the Celtics play yet. Considering we've drastically outperformed expectations under Brad Stevens and finally have a roster built in his image, I'm surprised people still think they can look at our depth chart and count us out. IT and Hayward both take a ton of pressure off of each other offensively, and Hayward has never played with so much firepower and spacing. Our system and talent level should elevate everyone's impact. This year will be a great indicator of how we are or aren't away.
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Re: Boston Early Offseason in Review (HW/Slava/bondom34/Mamba4goat) 

Post#192 » by OFWGKTA » Thu Aug 3, 2017 8:50 pm

HartfordWhalers wrote:
SmartWentCrazy wrote:So I'm not sure if KP is the best source to support your position.


Eastern Conference

1. Boston Celtics
Projected wins: 49.4

After they won 53 games to claim the top seed in the East last season, why aren't the Celtics projected to improve with the addition of Hayward? First, they outperformed their plus-2.6 point differential, which is more typical of a 48-win team. Boston also benefited from opponents shooting 33.2 percent from 3-point range, the league's second-lowest mark. Both categories tend to regress heavily to the mean, so the Celtics would have been in for a steeper decline had they not added Hayward. Still, given that Boston didn't have that same good fortune in the playoffs, the Celtics should be improved when it really counts.


http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/20225286/projected-records-win-totals-standings-every-nba-team-2017-18-season

Pelton is apparently also backing even less wins than our panel.



Those are projections based on RPM, not his opinion.
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Re: Boston Early Offseason in Review (HW/Slava/bondom34/Mamba4goat) 

Post#193 » by HartfordWhalers » Thu Aug 3, 2017 8:52 pm

Golabki wrote:4. They mentioned that the celtics don't have enough versatility at center... which strikes me as just dumb. They have a tradition physical big in Baynes, a classic modern stretch 5 in Horford, and they have so many good wings with size


I'm with you on a bunch of the criticism of before this -- after all I did give an A- --but not here.

The Celtics big rotation is a career backup, Horford, and wings. That seems pretty clearly flawed. They need a second big better than Baynes, so the options aren't:
Horford and a backup level player
Horford and a wing
A backup level player and a wing
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Re: Boston Early Offseason in Review (HW/Slava/bondom34/Mamba4goat) 

Post#194 » by Golabki » Thu Aug 3, 2017 9:06 pm

HartfordWhalers wrote:
Golabki wrote:4. They mentioned that the celtics don't have enough versatility at center... which strikes me as just dumb. They have a tradition physical big in Baynes, a classic modern stretch 5 in Horford, and they have so many good wings with size


I'm with you on a bunch of the criticism of before this -- after all I did give an A- --but not here.

The Celtics big rotation is a career backup, Horford, and wings. That seems pretty clearly flawed. They need a second big better than Baynes, so the options aren't:
Horford and a backup level player
Horford and a wing
A backup level player and a wing

I've never been a believer that the celtics need a starting center. Horford has been primarily a center for his whole career. Hayward/Crowder/Morris is a REALLY interesting front court that I think the celtics should and will use in the playoffs. I think that is a lot more dangerous than Hayward/Cowder/Dedmon.

Also... what exactly was their path to adding a starting caliber center? why should we believe they could have added a much better center than Baynes?

As a said, Baynes is a good fit as a 15-20 mpg player in the regular season who's going to get a lot of DNP coaches decisions in the playoffs.
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Re: Boston Early Offseason in Review (HW/Slava/bondom34/Mamba4goat) 

Post#195 » by SmartWentCrazy » Thu Aug 3, 2017 9:13 pm

nykballa2k4 wrote:[
Horford getting older and becoming a man without a position since he performs poorly against other C's.


You've said this twice, and it's just wrong. He destroyed the Bulls and Wizards in the playoffs. Like 140 ORTG good.

Thompson always kills him, sure. But he's not really a center.
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Re: Boston Early Offseason in Review (HW/Slava/bondom34/Mamba4goat) 

Post#196 » by HartfordWhalers » Thu Aug 3, 2017 9:15 pm

Golabki wrote:Also... what exactly was their path to adding a starting caliber center? why should we believe they could have added a much better center than Baynes?

As a said, Baynes is a good fit as a 15-20 mpg player in the regular season who's going to get a lot of DNP coaches decisions in the playoffs.


So thats the problem. They have 1 playoff big, and then wings. That is not flexible at all.

As for the path, I might make another topic on that in a bit so it can separate a bit out of here. But having just Horford and wings come playoff time strikes me as a short term hitch.
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Re: Boston Early Offseason in Review (HW/Slava/bondom34/Mamba4goat) 

Post#197 » by bondom34 » Thu Aug 3, 2017 9:24 pm

And Duncan and Leroux both with a C-.

Essentially, they didn't maximize their assets.
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Re: Boston Early Offseason in Review (HW/Slava/bondom34/Mamba4goat) 

Post#198 » by HartfordWhalers » Thu Aug 3, 2017 10:24 pm

OFWGKTA wrote:
HartfordWhalers wrote:
SmartWentCrazy wrote:So I'm not sure if KP is the best source to support your position.


Eastern Conference

1. Boston Celtics
Projected wins: 49.4

After they won 53 games to claim the top seed in the East last season, why aren't the Celtics projected to improve with the addition of Hayward? First, they outperformed their plus-2.6 point differential, which is more typical of a 48-win team. Boston also benefited from opponents shooting 33.2 percent from 3-point range, the league's second-lowest mark. Both categories tend to regress heavily to the mean, so the Celtics would have been in for a steeper decline had they not added Hayward. Still, given that Boston didn't have that same good fortune in the playoffs, the Celtics should be improved when it really counts.


http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/20225286/projected-records-win-totals-standings-every-nba-team-2017-18-season

Pelton is apparently also backing even less wins than our panel.



Those are projections based on RPM, not his opinion.


I and 1'ed this and think it is important note. But it does have Pelton's minute projection and Pelton's projections for rookies, so it is also very much proprietary to Pelton and without approximations close to his for both of those you would get different results using RPM.
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Re: Boston Early Offseason in Review (HW/Slava/bondom34/Mamba4goat) 

Post#199 » by nykballa2k4 » Fri Aug 4, 2017 3:18 am

SmartWentCrazy wrote:
nykballa2k4 wrote:[
Horford getting older and becoming a man without a position since he performs poorly against other C's.


You've said this twice, and it's just wrong. He destroyed the Bulls and Wizards in the playoffs. Like 140 ORTG good.

Thompson always kills him, sure. But he's not really a center.

Thompson or Horford?
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Re: Boston Early Offseason in Review (HW/Slava/bondom34/Mamba4goat) 

Post#200 » by traax » Fri Aug 4, 2017 9:12 am

This thread is nearly unreadable. Its a shame. I think the reviews are fair and would rate the Celtics offseason with a B+/B. I also dont understand the whole Brown/Bender/Dunn discussion. All of them are terrible players in my opinion. But who could you blame for it? Last years draft is trash, everyone except for Simmons looks mediocre at best.

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