Thoughts in General, Rumors, etc 5.0

[NYG]

Doubt Lakers or Philly can find a deal with OKC for Harris or Westbrook because one FRP is far from enough (47 millions for Westbrook and two years of contract with Harris and we could need some cap flexibility in 2023-2024 if our rebuild is going well). Just doesn't make any sense for us.

OKC would only be taking on Westbrook.

[NYG]

OKC doesn’t have space or TPEs this summer. They wasted that opportunity. But then they have like 68m in space or something the following summer with only a couple guys to potentially resign.

They have space right before the summer.

[NYG]

Doubt Lakers or Philly can find a deal with OKC for Harris or Westbrook because one FRP is far from enough (47 millions for Westbrook and two years of contract with Harris and we could need some cap flexibility in 2023-2024 if our rebuild is going well). Just doesn't make any sense for us.

OKC would only be taking on Westbrook.

Trade 1 (pre-calendar year reset): Tobias Harris + Philly incentive to the Thunder for Derrick Favors, Ty Jerome and Kenrich Williams
Trade 2: Russell Westbrook + Lakers incentive to the Thunder for Tobias Harris

What incentive would OKC require? Is 23rd Overall and a '29 Philly 1st enough?

[Dadouv47]

Doubt Lakers or Philly can find a deal with OKC for Harris or Westbrook because one FRP is far from enough (47 millions for Westbrook and two years of contract with Harris and we could need some cap flexibility in 2023-2024 if our rebuild is going well). Just doesn't make any sense for us.

OKC would only be taking on Westbrook.

Trade 1 (pre-calendar year reset): Tobias Harris + Philly incentive to the Thunder for Derrick Favors, Ty Jerome and Kenrich Williams
Trade 2: Russell Westbrook + Lakers incentive to the Thunder for Tobias Harris

What incentive would OKC require? Is 23rd Overall and a '29 Philly 1st enough?

It's a very difficult situation to bring back Westbrook. He's the most important player in our franchise history so we can't mess up with him but we also don't have playing time for him (need to develop SGA/Giddey). I can see Westbrook coming back in 2-3 years if we have a good squad just to finish his career.

If he's fine to come back to play 8-10 MPG coming from the bench, I would do it for two FRPs (at least one unprotected, not sure #23 in this year's draft is appealing enough).

[zimpy27]

Spoiler:

What could OKC get from Philly in a Tobias Harris for Favors/Kenrich deal?

What would OKC get from the Lakers in a Harris for Westbrook swap?

Well that would only save Lakers 10m going from Westbrook to Harris and they need to save 14,-15m ..

How about this?

Lakers get Harris, Kenrich, Muscala
Philly get Favors, THT
OKC get Westbrook, LAL27FRP, PHI25FRP(unprotect pick to OKC), PHI26swap

What is the appropriate incentive to each deal?

Trade 1 (pre-calendar year reset): Tobias Harris + Philly incentive to the Thunder for Derrick Favors, Ty Jerome and Kenrich Williams
Trade 2: Russell Westbrook + Lakers incentive to the Thunder for Tobias Harris
Trade 3: Talen Horton-Tucker + Lakers incentive to Philadelphia into the TPE from above Harris trade
Trade 4: Ty Jerome, Isaiah Joe + incentive from above THT trade to Orlando into cap space

- I think Lakers would probably not give much incentive to turn Westbrook into Harris. Maybe an SRP or an FRP swap if they were desperate.
- Philly would owe quite a bit of incentive as they are the real winners for moving off Harris's huge contract and getting back Kenrich, Jerome, Favors. I think they'd need to remove protections on 2025 FRP they are already giving OKC and they'd need to give another FRP at least.
- Lakers would give SRPs for THT to be taken into a TPE. But they may just opt to keep him if price is higher and come away with 12m savings, which is enough to use 10m MLE but not the 4m BAE.

[zimpy27]

OKC would only be taking on Westbrook.

Trade 1 (pre-calendar year reset): Tobias Harris + Philly incentive to the Thunder for Derrick Favors, Ty Jerome and Kenrich Williams
Trade 2: Russell Westbrook + Lakers incentive to the Thunder for Tobias Harris

What incentive would OKC require? Is 23rd Overall and a '29 Philly 1st enough?

It's a very difficult situation to bring back Westbrook. He's the most important player in our franchise history so we can't mess up with him but we also don't have playing time for him (need to develop SGA/Giddey). I can see Westbrook coming back in 2-3 years if we have a good squad just to finish his career.

If he's fine to come back to play 8-10 MPG coming from the bench, I would do it for two FRPs (at least one unprotected, not sure #23 in this year's draft is appealing enough).

Oh yeah, you'd be buying him out and allowing him to choose to play for any team in the league. That's the biggest favour you could do for him.

Maybe buy him out for $40m so he can take a TaxMLE.

Kemba was owed $54m more than his contract was worth and OKC moved a guy that was paid $19m more than his contract was worth. So there was around $35m of debt moved to OKC.

They got pick 16 and gave up pick 31 for that move so I think a single FRP is needed to take on Westbrook.

[Dadouv47]

Trade 1 (pre-calendar year reset): Tobias Harris + Philly incentive to the Thunder for Derrick Favors, Ty Jerome and Kenrich Williams
Trade 2: Russell Westbrook + Lakers incentive to the Thunder for Tobias Harris

What incentive would OKC require? Is 23rd Overall and a '29 Philly 1st enough?

It's a very difficult situation to bring back Westbrook. He's the most important player in our franchise history so we can't mess up with him but we also don't have playing time for him (need to develop SGA/Giddey). I can see Westbrook coming back in 2-3 years if we have a good squad just to finish his career.

If he's fine to come back to play 8-10 MPG coming from the bench, I would do it for two FRPs (at least one unprotected, not sure #23 in this year's draft is appealing enough).

Oh yeah, you'd be buying him out and allowing him to choose to play for any team in the league. That's the biggest favour you could do for him.

Maybe buy him out for $40m so he can take a TaxMLE.

Kemba was owed $54m more than his contract was worth and OKC moved a guy that was paid $19m more than his contract was worth. So there was around $35m of debt moved to OKC.

They got pick 16 and gave up pick 31 for that move so I think a single FRP is needed to take on Westbrook.

tbh don't remember the details but we ended up paying less than 20 millions for that pick (maybe because of the buy out).

#16 in the 2021 was a great pick and Presti messed up trading it for two future heavily protected FRPs so I guess asking for two better picks for Westbrook is about right (even more if we move Muscala or Kenrich that can be pretty useful for a team with little cap space).

[zimpy27]

It's a very difficult situation to bring back Westbrook. He's the most important player in our franchise history so we can't mess up with him but we also don't have playing time for him (need to develop SGA/Giddey). I can see Westbrook coming back in 2-3 years if we have a good squad just to finish his career.

If he's fine to come back to play 8-10 MPG coming from the bench, I would do it for two FRPs (at least one unprotected, not sure #23 in this year's draft is appealing enough).

Oh yeah, you'd be buying him out and allowing him to choose to play for any team in the league. That's the biggest favour you could do for him.

Maybe buy him out for $40m so he can take a TaxMLE.

Kemba was owed $54m more than his contract was worth and OKC moved a guy that was paid $19m more than his contract was worth. So there was around $35m of debt moved to OKC.

They got pick 16 and gave up pick 31 for that move so I think a single FRP is needed to take on Westbrook.

tbh don't remember the details but we ended up paying less than 20 millions for that pick (maybe because of the buy out).

#16 in the 2021 was a great pick and Presti messed up trading it for two future heavily protected FRPs so I guess asking for two better picks for Westbrook is about right (even more if we move Muscala or Kenrich that can be pretty useful for a team with little cap space).

It was sold as ~$15m because Horford was owed $40m guaranteed and Kemba got a buyout of $54m.. however the people that suggested that didn't take into account that Horford could have got a buyout of $15-20m and taken a full MLE or more as he was worth it at the time (he's worth even more now). So the actual maths is that OKC took on $35m-$40m for pick 16 minus pick 31

[NYG]

Oh yeah, you'd be buying him out and allowing him to choose to play for any team in the league. That's the biggest favour you could do for him.

Maybe buy him out for $40m so he can take a TaxMLE.

Kemba was owed $54m more than his contract was worth and OKC moved a guy that was paid $19m more than his contract was worth. So there was around $35m of debt moved to OKC.

They got pick 16 and gave up pick 31 for that move so I think a single FRP is needed to take on Westbrook.

tbh don't remember the details but we ended up paying less than 20 millions for that pick (maybe because of the buy out).

#16 in the 2021 was a great pick and Presti messed up trading it for two future heavily protected FRPs so I guess asking for two better picks for Westbrook is about right (even more if we move Muscala or Kenrich that can be pretty useful for a team with little cap space).

It was sold as ~$15m because Horford was owed $40m guaranteed and Kemba got a buyout of $54m.. however the people that suggested that didn't take into account that Horford could have got a buyout of $15-20m and taken a full MLE or more as he was worth it at the time (he's worth even more now). So the actual maths is that OKC took on $35m-$40m for pick 16 minus pick 31

If Philly unprotected their previously owed first and offered 23rd overall is that filling the gap?

[Dadouv47]

tbh don't remember the details but we ended up paying less than 20 millions for that pick (maybe because of the buy out).

#16 in the 2021 was a great pick and Presti messed up trading it for two future heavily protected FRPs so I guess asking for two better picks for Westbrook is about right (even more if we move Muscala or Kenrich that can be pretty useful for a team with little cap space).

It was sold as ~$15m because Horford was owed $40m guaranteed and Kemba got a buyout of $54m.. however the people that suggested that didn't take into account that Horford could have got a buyout of $15-20m and taken a full MLE or more as he was worth it at the time (he's worth even more now). So the actual maths is that OKC took on $35m-$40m for pick 16 minus pick 31

If Philly unprotected their previously owed first and offered 23rd overall is that filling the gap?

What's the offer? #23 and unprotected 2025? No way OKC goes for that. This is worse than the Kemba trade by a big margin.

#23 in this bad draft has not a lot of value (even more that we could move up some spots using 30 and 34). Remove protection in the philly pick is cool but that's clearly not enough (rather get future unprotected pick from Philly or Lakers)

Also using Kenrich Williams as a salary filler is wrong (he's worth two 2nd round picks).

[HartfordWhalers]

I can't imagine Philly pays a pick and more to get worse on the court. Might juts be me, but I have Philly in win now mode.

[Dadouv47]

I can't imagine Philly pays a pick and more to get worse on the court. Might juts be me, but I have Philly in win now mode.

yup more likely Morey adds more assets in a potential Harris trade to get really good players in return.

This trade looks really bad for Philly and OKC (and don't love it for the Lakers either tbh even if the value is fine)

[NYG]

Charlotte hangs up and says don't call back unless you're offering picks 2027-29

Where do Lakers fans land on that? I feel like this has to have been discussed previously.

- Stein suggested Hayward wouldn't be wanted in a Westbrook trade as Lakers are targeting health and reliability.
- Also Pelinka has been loathed to give out contracts beyond 2 years for non-stars. His one skill as a GM is getting creative with the numbers. Cap flexibility is key.

So Rozier and Hayward seems like it wouldn't be top of the list for Lakers. And if it's not a top return then Lakers won't sacrifice future FRPs. I mean, why would they? They could just run it back with a new coach and market a new system to fit Russ, LeBron, Davis. Although it would be bad, it probably would not be as bad as Vogels system was such a bad fit for the team they had last season.

I think the key thing to note here is Pelinka's number crunching skills. I suspect Lakers look to trade Westbrook with SRPs for close to $32m in salary coming back (3 year contracts maximum). The $32m number coming in with $47m going out actually allows the Lakers to use the $10m MLE and $4m BAE, which they will see as a good opportunity to bring in selected players.

While number one option is to trade Westbrook and FRPs for a star (however unlikely), I think the next option is to bring back $32m and it's far more realistic.

I looked. No team has $32 Million in salary expiring 2024 or earlier belonging to players that come without injury risk and would trade it for Westbrook without being given a Lakers pick or 2.

If the Lakers are dead set on that return, they probably just hope a new coach can do more with the AD/LeBron/Westbrook trio.

[NYG]

I can't imagine Philly pays a pick and more to get worse on the court. Might juts be me, but I have Philly in win now mode.

yup more likely Morey adds more assets in a potential Harris trade to get really good players in return.

This trade looks really bad for Philly and OKC (and don't love it for the Lakers either tbh even if the value is fine)

Yeah the Lakers probably just keep Westbrook and hope it works under a new coach.

[NYG]

I just started a poll to see what to do with Westbrook in my mock off-season. Vote for the most realistic outcome and I'll use it.

https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2189382

[Dadouv47]

I can't imagine Philly pays a pick and more to get worse on the court. Might juts be me, but I have Philly in win now mode.

yup more likely Morey adds more assets in a potential Harris trade to get really good players in return.

This trade looks really bad for Philly and OKC (and don't love it for the Lakers either tbh even if the value is fine)

Yeah the Lakers probably just keep Westbrook and hope it works under a new coach.

I think the Lakers will likely find a deal (de Westbrook + picks for decent role players under good contracts). Harris is still good but not worth his contract and the fit with AD and Lebron is beyond terrible (not as bad as Westbrook in LA but still bad enough)

[Dadouv47]

I can't imagine Philly pays a pick and more to get worse on the court. Might juts be me, but I have Philly in win now mode.

yup more likely Morey adds more assets in a potential Harris trade to get really good players in return.

This trade looks really bad for Philly and OKC (and don't love it for the Lakers either tbh even if the value is fine)

Yeah the Lakers probably just keep Westbrook and hope it works under a new coach.

I think the Lakers will likely find a deal (Westbrook + picks for decent role players under good contracts). Harris is still good but not worth his contract and the fit with AD and Lebron is beyond terrible.

[NYG]

yup more likely Morey adds more assets in a potential Harris trade to get really good players in return.

This trade looks really bad for Philly and OKC (and don't love it for the Lakers either tbh even if the value is fine)

Yeah the Lakers probably just keep Westbrook and hope it works under a new coach.

I think the Lakers will likely find a deal (Westbrook + picks for decent role players under good contracts). Harris is still good but not worth his contract and the fit with AD and Lebron is beyond terrible.

After discussing it further, I think Westbrook leaves enough money off his contract in a buy out to leave LA with the full MLE and bets on himself choosing where he wants to go.

[NYG]

Yeah the Lakers probably just keep Westbrook and hope it works under a new coach.

I think the Lakers will likely find a deal (Westbrook + picks for decent role players under good contracts). Harris is still good but not worth his contract and the fit with AD and Lebron is beyond terrible.

After discussing it further, I think Westbrook leaves enough money off his contract in a buy out to leave LA with the full MLE and bets on himself choosing where he wants to go.

LA probably still has to dump THT to make this realistic.

[Mamba4Goat]

I’ve been tinkering around and is there a Dallas Westbrook trade to be had? They have the bad contracts (Hardaway, Dinwiddie, Bertans) and an expiring contract for cap filler too (Powell).