RGM's Top 25 Most Valuable Players - Vote for #17

[Trader_Joe]

Anthony Davis is in there already.

As for Drummond, 8-9 years of arguably the most physically dominant player in the league is rather appealing, especially as he has a relatively low salary compared to a top pick. 8-9 years of Lillard is also probably appealing to pretty much any team as he has shown he can already help a team to the playoffs despite low expectations going. Did you think the Blazers with no real center, no bench and a rookie PG would be in the playoffs halfway through the season?

Meanwhile Holiday is about to be an all-star at age 22 and took what looks to be a below market extension. His numbers are very similar if not better than Deron as well as his defense. So, much younger, quicker, much cheaper and comparable production. I don't think he's as good as Deron yet as he doesn't have the intangibles that come with experience but this is about value.

[JoseRizal]

V: Deron
N: Lopez

[roc]

I haven't voted since 15 IIRC, kind of kept forgetting about this and coming back to it and looking at it, I kind of have to start sharing the sentiment of others of how absurd this has become.

Deron still not voted on.

Lopez and Bosh still not nominated.

Yet Drummond and Lillard actually already voted on?

And Holiday nominated?

No Anthony Davis nominated?

And wait, Drummond is actually voted in on the list, but Monroe not even nominated?

Even Rondo on there over Deron is classic internet perception over reality.

Man, this list is absolutely useless at this point, real talk. Just ball it up and yell, "Kobe at the buzzer!" while flicking your wrist and leaving some follow through on a high arcing attempt at the recycling can.

Davis is already voted on at # 7

as for Andre Drummond...

1st off, I know of no Piston fan who would trade Dre before Monroe... none.

IMO Andre is too low on this list of trade value.

Here are some stats that seem interesting to me and I would expect many GMs as well...

Andre Drummond - 6'11" 297lbs - C - 19 years old - $2,356,320

#14 in Offensive Rebounds (Total)
#13 in Blocks (Total)
#2 in FG%
#14 in Blocks Per Game
#11 in PER
#19 in TS%
#5 in EFF FG%
#2 in Offensive Rebound %
#12 in Defensive Rebound %
#5 in Total Rebound %
#6 in Block %
#10 in Offensive Rating
#6 in Defensive Rating
#7 in Win Share Per 48

Andre is top 10 in both O and D rating. No other player even makes the top 20 in both cats.

For comparison here are the only other rookies with top 20 in any major cat...

Anthony Davis - 6'10" 220lbs - PF - 19 years old - $5,144,280

#11 in Blocks Per Game
#10 in Block %

Damian Lillard - 6'3" 195lb - PG - 22 years old - $3,065,040

#4 in Minutes Played
#11 in Field Goal Attempts
#4 in 3 FG Attempts
#12 in Assists Per Game
#20 in Assist %
#12 in Assists (Total)
#6 in Minutes Per Game
#10 Turnovers
#14 Points
#16 Points Per Game

As for Deron Williams... 28 years old - $17,177,795

# 14 in 3 FG Attempts
#13 in Free Throws
# 20 in FT Attempts
#6 Assists Per Game
#7 Assists (Total)
#8 Assist %
#11 in Offensive Win Shares
#13 in Free Throws
#14 in 3FG%
#14 FT%

He has been somewhat inefficient the past couple of seasons (his 3 has looked better this year) and has a huge salary so I can see why he is not listed yet.

Brook Lopez is having a great season and should mos def already be nominated. I would have to assume his last season is still in peoples heads as the reason he has yet to make it.

Center is easily the hardest position to fill so that alone ups their value over the many good PGs who are now flooding the league.

[DRK]

Vote: George
Nominate: Batum

[vincecarter4pres]

Come on man, we're at small sample size here, Drummond could be the next Stromile Swift before it's all said and done.

At one point MarShon Brooks last year had a +20 PER, good efficiency stats, etc.

Maybe Drummond is the next Dwight, or maybe he's just a rookie who's contributing in a big way off his freak physicals in limited minutes and he regresses to DeAndre Jordan from Jordan's 3rd year, where he was showing he would be good but likely never great?

He's certainly valuable and an interesting prospect, but this is getting ridiculous. This is those moments when the stats crowd has a real disconnect problem and jumps the gun IMHO.

[vincecarter4pres]

Anthony Davis is in there already.

My fault.

As for Drummond, 8-9 years of arguably the most physically dominant player in the league is rather appealing, especially as he has a relatively low salary compared to a top pick.

See this to me is a main problem. You're talking in a tone as if you're guaranteeing him to be the next top 3 in the league player. I've touched on him in my prior post, I won't go all verbose.

8-9 years of Lillard is also probably appealing to pretty much any team as he has shown he can already help a team to the playoffs despite low expectations going. Did you think the Blazers with no real center, no bench and a rookie PG would be in the playoffs halfway through the season?

I was unaware they have already made the playoffs at the 40 game mark?

Again, really really like Lillard, but let's relax a little. Is he very valuable? Of course, absolutely. Just like Drummond. I'm not arguing these guys aren't valuable, I'm simply arguing what this list is about, ranking their value and people on here are super knee jerk to the point they need virtual ACL reconstruction of their opinion.

Bosh, Deron, Lopez, these guys are coveted big time, especially the 2 former. Few if any teams are going to give up more for Drummond or Lillard then they are for those guys and that's what this list is about.

The type of value you're asking for, I can't even see the lotto teams giving up more for Drummond or Lillard because they aren't far enough along for an established player, because you're talking about them giving up their pick unprotected if you're assigning them this type of value, plus prospects and future lightly protected picks, so that argument goes right out the window.

And then if you want to argue how currently good these guys are as well, especially Lillard, again, your argument that it's better to keep tanking and build around them with other young guys, again, right out the window.

Meanwhile Holiday is about to be an all-star at age 22 and took what looks to be a below market extension. His numbers are very similar if not better than Deron as well as his defense. So, much younger, quicker, much cheaper and comparable production. I don't think he's as good as Deron yet as he doesn't have the intangibles that come with experience but this is about value.

Jrue doesn't hold a candle to Deron and only people with perception problems, Deron haters and Sixers fans will disagree.

We can talk of value all you like, but most any GM in the league in real life is going to tell you give me the stud superstar player on a max deal who's also in his prime for the entire length of the deal over the fringe All Star semi-star on a better contract if I have to give up the same assets.

Stars win.

The Sixers are likely to be in the lotto.

The numbers? Like the raw ones? And Deron started off awfully and has been on fire. And anyone watching the games understands Jrue doesn't run an offense like Deron or impact the game like him and the stats back it up.

And again, this isn't to crap on Jrue, he's an interesting young player, very good current fringe All Star. He has a higher ceiling, but I don't know how much. Again, this is looking at ranking guys.

The real point is how is he nominated and getting votes over the likes of Bosh and Lopez?

Let alone a few others that deserve a shout which have not been mentioned.

Hell Bosh and Brook are both obviously better players then Marc Gasol and probably equally marketable and in Bosh's case much more so in all likelihood, even including the European market yet there he is voted in already.

Anyway, it is what it is, but you guys asked for some discussion and not just votes, here it is!

Also my Kobe line and some others were just jokes. Of course in a sense I mean them to make my point, but was just a little humor which I know mine is always misinterpreted haha.

[vincecarter4pres]

Lastly, to add to the above, that wasn't to talk down Marc Gasol either. He's obviously a very good player. Really good defender, great passer for a big man and has a nice midrange J, solid post game, tough, just a really really nice all around player and a lot of what you want out of your center minus his poor rebounding.

I don't even truthfully have much of a problem with where he has been voted in, but I have a problem with him being voted in while Lopez and Bosh aren't even nominated yet.

And with Bosh, there is some devaluing for sure because he can flee the scene depending on where he would be traded and I don't really think he should be voted on just yet, but to not be nominated?

TBH, a guy like Kobe even being nominated is a mistake IMHO. He is on here strictly because he's still a current top 5 in the league player. But we've been through why he holds almost no trade value, at least to these lofty rankings... simply his No Trade Clause and the fact there are probably 4 teams max he would agree to go to and he wouldn't allow big pieces dealt for him to then join a dismantled core and none of those 2 to 4 teams would have high value youth pieces to even deal to rank him highly.

[Quackenboss]

Holiday
MKG

[theokie]

Ibaka

BOsh

[Texas Chuck]

Vince,

there would be a easly solution to fix this list. But you wouldnt care for it personally.

Simply prohibit people from voting for or nominating players from their own team. If you peruse through each thread you will see the absurdly high percentage of home team voting. This is the primary reason the results are skewed. Everyone voting for their own players thinks that he or she individually is being objective but when you look at the voting as a whole it becomes clear how much our results are distorted.

[9abovetherim]

V-Curry
N-Bosh

[JasonStern]

v: holiday
n: bosh

[deNIEd]

V: Jrue Holiday (Deron, George, and Ibaka are next on my list)
N: Lopez (MKG, Wall, and Bosh are next on my list)

[roc]

Vince,

there would be a easly solution to fix this list. But you wouldnt care for it personally.

Simply prohibit people from voting for or nominating players from their own team. If you peruse through each thread you will see the absurdly high percentage of home team voting. This is the primary reason the results are skewed. Everyone voting for their own players thinks that he or she individually is being objective but when you look at the voting as a whole it becomes clear how much our results are distorted.

Would mos def make things interesting.

granted it would not have change Dre's vote in as only 2 votes (me and justinsane) were from DET fans.

[JustinSane]

Vote - Holiday
Nominate - Lopez

I really believe Deron Williams to be over-rated and a product of one of the greatest coaches of all time. Until he can sustain a Sloan-era level of production for half a season or more with a different coach, I can't believe in him. Holiday is young, good on both sides of the ball, and signed to below market contract.

Lopez is just good.

Not being able to vote or nominate players from the team you're a fan of seems like a very good rule to me. I'm not sure how it's impacted the results, but no matter how objective we try to be, it's tough when you know some players much better than others.

[Trader_Joe]

Yeah.. was something I've been thinking of all along, but it's a bit late for this poll.
Next one will probably have that rule.