PMOTT3 and Chuck Texas Early Off-Season Review: Portland Trailblazers

[Texas Chuck]

Yeah, I'm not buying LMA screwed them, and think they were completely right to go full rebuild. I'd expect similar from OKC but that's another topic entirely. Once they knew he was out it made no sense to build around Lillard and a bunch of older role player to slightly above average guys, and Lillard is still young enough to build around if you put a young core with him.

I think OKC is way different tho. Westbrook is a superstar in his own right in a way that Lillard just isn't. Add to that Ibaka and the other bigs still being plenty young, and I think OKC is more of a re-tool than a re-build. Too much talent would be left.

[MoneyTalks41890]

Also not buying the LMA screwed them over angle. There were multiple reports that he was considering leaving midway through the year, and management had to know it was a possibility. Not like they had much power though in the moment. More a reflection of management over the last few years and it was a bit too late at that point to do anything other than hope he would come back.

I'm meh on Vonleh, but I did like that Portland got out there and started making moves immediately once they knew LMA was gone.

And to the guy who said Leonard and Plumlee are both better than Kanter, um.... what?

[bondom34]

Yeah, fair point Chuck, I just think b/c Russ hits free agency the following year w/ Ibaka they may consider it, but don't really know.

[Texas Chuck]

Yeah, fair point Chuck, I just think b/c Russ hits free agency the following year w/ Ibaka they may consider it, but don't really know.

'

I don't particularly care for the Thunder, but it would break my basketball heart if you guys lost Durant and Westbrook in b2b years. How gutting would that be?

I mean the Mavs lost Nash and Finley in b2b years and that seemed terrible(tho we didn't really suffer for it on the court) but that's nothing compared to your 2 guys.

Just win the title and I think it solves itself. I can't see Durant walking away from a champion and I can't see Westbrook walking away from Durant and a champion.

[MoneyTalks41890]

Yeah, fair point Chuck, I just think b/c Russ hits free agency the following year w/ Ibaka they may consider it, but don't really know.

'

I don't particularly care for the Thunder, but it would break my basketball heart if you guys lost Durant and Westbrook in b2b years. How gutting would that be?

I mean the Mavs lost Nash and Finley in b2b years and that seemed terrible(tho we didn't really suffer for it on the court) but that's nothing compared to your 2 guys.

Just win the title and I think it solves itself. I can't see Durant walking away from a champion and I can't see Westbrook walking away from Durant and a champion.

This line of discussion is giving me so much anxiety.

[Texas Chuck]

Sorry mate. I'll drop it.

[sonictecture]

Even sign and trading these players and receiving a TPE would have represented value and Olshey got nothing except the ability to sign role players to over-priced contracts.

I

Simply not true. Pure cap space is more valuable than those TPE's would be. And typically the team gaining the TPE has to compensate the other team for playing along which means Portland would have sacrificed assets for less flexibiltiy.

Presti paid both Minnesota and Atlanta to participate in a sign and trade for Kevin Martin and Thabo Sefalosha respectively. If Olshey had done something similar he would have had both his cap space for the respective players lost and the TPE from the teams in which he signed and traded with. He could have used his pure cap space and had the flexibility of the TPE to use in the future. So you see it's not an issue of one or the other but both.

[bondom34]

Yeah, fair point Chuck, I just think b/c Russ hits free agency the following year w/ Ibaka they may consider it, but don't really know.

'

I don't particularly care for the Thunder, but it would break my basketball heart if you guys lost Durant and Westbrook in b2b years. How gutting would that be?

I mean the Mavs lost Nash and Finley in b2b years and that seemed terrible(tho we didn't really suffer for it on the court) but that's nothing compared to your 2 guys.

Just win the title and I think it solves itself. I can't see Durant walking away from a champion and I can't see Westbrook walking away from Durant and a champion.

This line of discussion is giving me so much anxiety.

Meh, 5-10 percent right now, go to the team board, we've been posting his recent comments and stuff. Good times.

[bondom34]

Sorry mate. I'll drop it.

I brought it up, my bad .

[MoneyTalks41890]

Even sign and trading these players and receiving a TPE would have represented value and Olshey got nothing except the ability to sign role players to over-priced contracts.

I

Simply not true. Pure cap space is more valuable than those TPE's would be. And typically the team gaining the TPE has to compensate the other team for playing along which means Portland would have sacrificed assets for less flexibiltiy.

Presti paid both Minnesota and Atlanta to participate in a sign and trade for Kevin Martin and Thabo Sefalosha respectively. If Olshey had done something similar he would have had both his cap space for the respective players lost and the TPE from the teams in which he signed and traded with. He could have used his pure cap space and had the flexibility of the TPE to use in the future. So you see it's not an issue of one or the other but both.

Not true, if you use your cap space you have to renounce your TPEs and lose them, so it wouldn't have gotten them anything. TPEs are only helpful when a team is over the cap.

[Texas Chuck]

Even sign and trading these players and receiving a TPE would have represented value and Olshey got nothing except the ability to sign role players to over-priced contracts.

I

Simply not true. Pure cap space is more valuable than those TPE's would be. And typically the team gaining the TPE has to compensate the other team for playing along which means Portland would have sacrificed assets for less flexibiltiy.

Presti paid both Minnesota and Atlanta to participate in a sign and trade for Kevin Martin and Thabo Sefalosha respectively. If Olshey had done something similar he would have had both his cap space for the respective players lost and the TPE from the teams in which he signed and traded with. He could have used his pure cap space and had the flexibility of the TPE to use in the future. So you see it's not an issue of one or the other but both.

TPE's take up cap space mate. So you can't use the cap space and keep the TPE's. It's an either/or.

[Trader_Joe]

Even sign and trading these players and receiving a TPE would have represented value and Olshey got nothing except the ability to sign role players to over-priced contracts.

I

Simply not true. Pure cap space is more valuable than those TPE's would be. And typically the team gaining the TPE has to compensate the other team for playing along which means Portland would have sacrificed assets for less flexibiltiy.

Presti paid both Minnesota and Atlanta to participate in a sign and trade for Kevin Martin and Thabo Sefalosha respectively. If Olshey had done something similar he would have had both his cap space for the respective players lost and the TPE from the teams in which he signed and traded with. He could have used his pure cap space and had the flexibility of the TPE to use in the future. So you see it's not an issue of one or the other but both.

A TPE counts against cap space.
TPE's are useful for teams over the cap (or not far under it).

[sonictecture]

Once LMA was leaving, it made sense to let everyone else go. Keeping them would have required contracts that were questionable to bad (at least for a rebuilding team) anyway.

The Vonleh trade was great. Vonleh did enough as a young rookie to look like he'll be quite good in a few years. Portland successfully took advantage of a floundering Charlotte offseason.

I like Aminu better as a PF than SF, which would leave Portland overly deep at PF and questionable at SF - but playing him at SF leaves very little shooting. The value with Davis and especially Aminu was good but IMO the fit is poor, though Portland has time to fix that.

They got lucky with the Kanter deal. Plumlee and Leonard are both better, and you offer $16M/yr to Kanter? They had to be sure OKC would panic match for that to make sense.

In terms of what was under their control the Vonleh deal was very good and the rest was neither that good or bad. I'd go a solid B+.

If they had kept everyone else they wouldn't be a rebuilding team. The contracts they would have given out would have been market contracts and traceable in the future for value.

Vonleh did enough last season? Are you thinking of someone else?
Vonleh played in 25 games, shot .395% on 3.3ppg and 3.4rpg. If anything he gave the impression he came out too early and Charlotte reached for him.

OKC went into FA expecting to match a max contract for Kanter. There was no panic in their process. Kanter would have been a good player for Portland and would have increased the time of the rebuild.

Keeping Afflalo/Matthews/Lopez leaves Portland as a 40-win meh team with no upside. They'd be more watchable next year but in a worse position going forward. I didn't see any of them signing good contracts. Afflalo is a bad defender where any offensive decline leaves him with very limited on-court value. Matthews is coming off an Achillies injury (and not remotely cheap). Lopez was the only average conctact but hardly a bargain for a decent but limited center.

And no matter how fast the cap rises, the worst defensive player in the league on a $16M+/yr deal isn't an asset.

Keeping Batum, Mathews, Lopez and Afflalo with Lillard and Portland is still probably a playoff team, with stability in a league where other teams might break apart earlier. Room to fill out the bench properly or leave space for the next disgruntled superstar looking for a better team to join.

Portland isn't in a good position now. With the way the East is they could still be in mid or late lottery and on a treadmill program.

[sonictecture]

Simply not true. Pure cap space is more valuable than those TPE's would be. And typically the team gaining the TPE has to compensate the other team for playing along which means Portland would have sacrificed assets for less flexibiltiy.

Presti paid both Minnesota and Atlanta to participate in a sign and trade for Kevin Martin and Thabo Sefalosha respectively. If Olshey had done something similar he would have had both his cap space for the respective players lost and the TPE from the teams in which he signed and traded with. He could have used his pure cap space and had the flexibility of the TPE to use in the future. So you see it's not an issue of one or the other but both.

A TPE counts against cap space.
TPE's are useful for teams over the cap (or not far under it).

Thank you for the correction everyone.

The strategy could have been to sign everyone else and get a TPE for Aldridge or Aldridge and Afflalo .

[JasonStern]

ugh.

Rondae Hollis-Jefferson - let's view this for what it was. Portland had an agreement with Brooklyn to trade #23 and Blake's contract for Plumlee and #41. so they move from a late 1st to a mid 2nd, clear up some cap space otherwise owed to an aged backup point guard, and acquire a 25 year old center with Team USA experience. that's a great trade for Portland. not convinced? check Billy King's track record.

Batum is an expiring contract that Portland got value for. while he is young enough that Portland could probably have retained him through the upcoming rebuild, he's voiced his desire to play in other cities, and it likely would have taken Portland a significant overpay to retain him, presuming the goal was to retain an inconsistent small forward coming off of a wrist injury. is it a great trade for Portland? time will tell. it likely depends on whether or not Vonleh pans out and what contract Batum gets in free agency during a year where nearly every team will have cap space. still, check Cho/Jordan's track record with respect to trades and it's easy to feel confident Portland made the right move long-term.

maxing out Lillard under the current salary cap makes much more sense than waiting a year. reminder - Reggie Jackson just got $80 million - Lillard was going to get maxed. Lillard already has one all-NBA appearance, and if he received a second one this season, then he's eligible under the Derrick Rose rule to receive a contract worth 30% of the cap instead of 25%. and I honestly believe that Lillard could be the scoring champion next season or the season after, similar to McGrady on those depleted Orlando teams. look at the rest of Portland's roster. who else is going to score? Kaman?

Aminu and Davis are solid signings. as Monroe proved, Portland wasn't going to land any top tier free agents. instead of throwing money at veterans when the team had no chance of competing, they acquired players young enough to potentially keep throughout the rebuild.

Harkless is free. unless every team in the league gets really bad really fast, Orlando will never see that pick. the nice thing about adding Harkless is it adds some competition for Crabbe for backup small forward minutes. plus he's expiring, so it's not like the Blazers are on the hook for anything long-term should he not work out.

I was indifferent on the Kanter contract. while he's a flawed player, he's still a young big. OKC matching just makes it harder for a division rival to balance their salary cap.

it's ugly, but it could have been a lot uglier. the Blazers have some young players with "potential", will likely retain their picks, cap space for the foreseeable future, and one younger all-star. B-.

Any time a team implodes the way Portland did this summer it is a product of seasons of mismanagement and not just a single decision of a player to leave.

Portland was coming off of a second round playoff victory. they had two all-stars on the roster, had one of the best records in the NBA, and had just acquired Arron Afflalo to bolster their bench depth. many pundits had them as a darkhorse candidate to win the championship. but yes, not knowing that Wesley Matthews would rupture his Achilles and blowing that roster up lies solely on Olshey and company.

When Miami lost Lebron they didn't demolish most of the team to rebuild from scratch. If OKC losses Durant in FA next summer I don't expect them to rebuild from scratch.

usually I agree in reloading versus rebuilding, but let's look at Portland. they had Wesley Matthews that received a max contract that is coming off of a ruptured Achilles, they had a flight risk next season in Batum, they had a mediocre center in Lopez, and a ball dominant shooting guard in Arron Afflalo. losing Aldridge for nothing and paying everyone the contracts they earned in free agency would max Portland out with respect to cap space. and for what? a 40 win team that is uncompetitive in the west? and you use a team like OKC to justify it? excluding Aldridge, who on last year's Blazers team is as good as Westbrook, Ibaka, etc.?

Kinda strange, all their moves point "contend"

how so? other than Henderson and, if you count him, Miller, not a single player that the Blazers acquired is over 25. that seems more "build for 2-3 years" than "win now".

Kanter would have been a good player for Portland and would have increased the time of the rebuild.

but retaining an injured Matthews, Batum, Lopez, and Afflalo wouldn't?

Also not buying the LMA screwed them over angle. There were multiple reports that he was considering leaving midway through the year

source?

[RealityIsDemar]

Kinda strange, all their moves point "contend"

how so? other than Henderson and, if you count him, Miller, not a single player that the Blazers acquired is over 25. that seems more "build for 2-3 years" than "win now".

While Aminu and Davis are young, they're good players, not the type of players you'd see starting for the 6ers. If Portlands really gonna tank they need to lose as much as possible which means they can't want to win or be in positions to win. Players like Aminu and Davis will put you in positions to win.

[JasonStern]

Kinda strange, all their moves point "contend"

how so? other than Henderson and, if you count him, Miller, not a single player that the Blazers acquired is over 25. that seems more "build for 2-3 years" than "win now".

While Aminu and Davis are young, they're good players, not the type of players you'd see starting for the 6ers. If Portlands really gonna tank they need to lose as much as possible which means they can't want to win or be in positions to win. Players like Aminu and Davis will put you in positions to win.

which makes sense if the Blazers were trying to rebuild ala the 76ers, but that's not what they're trying to do. in order to do that, they'd need to trade Lillard - a former rookie of the year still on his rookie year contract, and then hope that, by losing more games than every other team, they can luck out in the draft and acquire an all-star like Lillard. now you can argue that Lillard isn't the type of player a championship team builds around, and that is very true. but there are very few of those in the league. and Portland's track record of having those types of players is awful.

ultimately, the Blazers still needed to spend their cap space on someone. Monroe chose the Bucks over the Blazers, the Thunder matched Kanter. and given that the team is rebuilding, throwing reasonable deals (reasonable at least with respect to the cap going up) at players in the same age range as Lillard that still aren't in their prime makes a lot more sense than throwing a max contract at a player like Tyson Chandler.

the Blazers teams from the last two seasons really weren't as talented as people make them out to be. where they excelled was team chemistry. and team chemistry comes from keeping the same core together in the same system for multiple seasons.

as it is, the Blazers have four rookie contract lottery picks in Lillard, Vonleh, McCollum, and Leonard. for a team that lost three starters and their best bench player for nothing, that's not a bad position to start a rebuild. you figure lottery picks in the next two seasons, continued development from the young players currently on the roster, a decent player acquired in free agency, and maybe - just maybe - an underperforming player like Crabbe or Harkless being a late bloomer, and suddenly the Blazers are back in the playoffs in time for the next career ending injury and/or Lillard leaving in free agency.

[Norm2953]

It's a bit early to grade Portland's off season for it's still August and there will be a number of
opportunities prior to the beginning of the season the trade deadline to impact the bottom
line.

I gave Portland's off season a C for I expect some changes with their cap space but currently
its a D for Portland's roster has one legit NBA starter and a group of MLE level players. It will
be a team that is 8-9 players deep and could surprise if one of their young players takes a
big step forward.

[blind prophet]

Feels light on the tank side, like a partial tank to me. I think they end up around 25 wins barring too much injury, and think they should have depleted the roster more.

D-

[Takingbaconback]

Easy F, lost 3 out of 5 starters outright. Traded away 1 for a project. Worst offseason for any team in the league, went from a possible 2nd-3rd round team in the playoffs to a squad with the least talent overall