Assets Battle: Nuggets vs Suns

[damecurry]

Someone really needs ro help me out with the evaluation of booker as an elite asset. Hes not a great defender and doesnt project as one and he shot like 35% on 3s right? What am i missing? Jokic was one of the best players in the league by most metrics, he has elite offensive ability, the versatility to play 4 or 5 while bookers a straight two, they are not comparable in my mind. And denver easily crushes phoenix in almost all other compa and just has more guys, this really isnt a discussion in my mind.

How many rookies come in and shoot 40% from three on decent attempts? 35% isn't bad for a rookie, especially one who was the youngest kid in his draft class and who took on most of the offense for the team after those injuries. I put him just ahead of Jokic also, not taking away from his talent but it's easier to have more efficient numbers when you're not playing big minutes every night. I would like to see Jokic play thirty a night for a full season befor I label him a future star, Monroe had identical numbers and efficiency his rookie season and never really ended up developing much further, especially on defense. Denver overall has better young talent and have had better scouting when it comes to picks later in the draft. I like Murray better than Bender or Chriss.

1st, how many rookies come in touted as shooters with few other skills? Again if he were some kind of strong defender this would be a different discussion, or if he rebounded or assisted at an elite level for the position. But none of that's true, he's a shooter/scorer who had good numbers and solid efficiency and bad metrics as a rookie. Valuable and promising? Sure. Future star? doesn't seem nearly as likely as Jokic.
Bold: you do realize that Booker averaged exactly 6 mpg more than Jokic right, 21.7 vs. 27.7. I know that's a fair bit but it's not like Nikola was popping off the bench for 15 mpg during garbage time where he could take advantage of bad bench units while Booker was forced into a starting role at 32 mpg or something. They actually played pretty similar roles and time for most of the season.
Italicized: I completely and utterly agree on this, Jokic is not a "future star" like KAT or Zingis or Giannis are in my opinion, but Booker's not even close to that. Jokic certainly has a much higher chance of getting there then devin, I mean all he really has to do is extrapolate last years performance over 34 mpg in a feature role and he's a star. Don't expect that to happen right away but it's not asking a lot. Booker would have to massively improve multiple aspects of his game to get there. It's not like just up that 3pt % to 40 instead of 35 and boom you're a star. He'd still be averaging like 3 rpg, 3.5 apg, and not playing very good defense, while putting up 20+ppg on good not great efficiency. That's not close to a star. So I understand Jokic skepticism, because asking someone to do what he did in a big featured role is very different no doubt, I just don't understand the Booker enthusiasm. He is much further away and has a far less clear path to being a star than Nikola by every measure and metric I can see. So what am I missing in regards to Devin being rated so highly?

p.s. look at monroe's numbers again, he was playing Booker's minutes not Jokic's (27.8) and averaging slightly less in raw stats on about the same efficiency as Nikola, and his metrics weren't in the same ballpark.

[gaspar]

Someone really needs ro help me out with the evaluation of booker as an elite asset. Hes not a great defender and doesnt project as one and he shot like 35% on 3s right? What am i missing? Jokic was one of the best players in the league by most metrics, he has elite offensive ability, the versatility to play 4 or 5 while bookers a straight two, they are not comparable in my mind. And denver easily crushes phoenix in almost all other compa and just has more guys, this really isnt a discussion in my mind.

How many rookies come in and shoot 40% from three on decent attempts? 35% isn't bad for a rookie, especially one who was the youngest kid in his draft class and who took on most of the offense for the team after those injuries. I put him just ahead of Jokic also, not taking away from his talent but it's easier to have more efficient numbers when you're not playing big minutes every night. I would like to see Jokic play thirty a night for a full season befor I label him a future star, Monroe had identical numbers and efficiency his rookie season and never really ended up developing much further, especially on defense. Denver overall has better young talent and have had better scouting when it comes to picks later in the draft. I like Murray better than Bender or Chriss.

1st, how many rookies come in touted as shooters with few other skills? Again if he were some kind of strong defender this would be a different discussion, or if he rebounded or assisted at an elite level for the position. But none of that's true, he's a shooter/scorer who had good numbers and solid efficiency and bad metrics as a rookie. Valuable and promising? Sure. Future star? doesn't seem nearly as likely as Jokic.
Bold: you do realize that Booker averaged exactly 6 mpg more than Jokic right, 21.7 vs. 27.7. I know that's a fair bit but it's not like Nikola was popping off the bench for 15 mpg during garbage time where he could take advantage of bad bench units while Booker was forced into a starting role at 32 mpg or something. They actually played pretty similar roles and time for most of the season.
Italicized: I completely and utterly agree on this, Jokic is not a "future star" like KAT or Zingis or Giannis are in my opinion, but Booker's not even close to that. Jokic certainly has a much higher chance of getting there then devin, I mean all he really has to do is extrapolate last years performance over 34 mpg in a feature role and he's a star. Don't expect that to happen right away but it's not asking a lot. Booker would have to massively improve multiple aspects of his game to get there. It's not like just up that 3pt % to 40 instead of 35 and boom you're a star. He'd still be averaging like 3 rpg, 3.5 apg, and not playing very good defense, while putting up 20+ppg on good not great efficiency. That's not close to a star. So I understand Jokic skepticism, because asking someone to do what he did in a big featured role is very different no doubt, I just don't understand the Booker enthusiasm. He is much further away and has a far less clear path to being a star than Nikola by every measure and metric I can see. So what am I missing in regards to Devin being rated so highly?

p.s. look at monroe's numbers again, he was playing Booker's minutes not Jokic's (27.8) and averaging slightly less in raw stats on about the same efficiency as Nikola, and his metrics weren't in the same ballpark.

You do realize that this is exactly what happened with Booker in Phoenix, right? In 50 games after Bledsoe got injured he played 34.7 mpg. And we don't have to extrapolate anything for Booker. During that stretch he averaged 18 pts, 4 ast and 3 reb. Again, as the youngest player in the league. He has a lot of room to improve. And Jokic's and Booker's roles weren't similar at all. Jokic never was the #1 option on offense in Denver.

[gaspar]

He is much further away and has a far less clear path to being a star than Nikola by every measure and metric I can see. So what am I missing in regards to Devin being rated so highly?

You are missing the point by over-analyzing stats instead of focusing on watching the tape. Most advanced stats and metrics indicated that rookie Kevin Durant isn't any good, but something completely different was evident for anyone who watched him play.

[NTB]

Devin Booker's stats after ASG: 19.2 points / 3.0 rebounds / 4.1 assists.

[damecurry]

He is much further away and has a far less clear path to being a star than Nikola by every measure and metric I can see. So what am I missing in regards to Devin being rated so highly?

You are missing the point by over-analyzing stats instead of focusing on watching the tape. Most advanced stats and metrics indicated that rookie Kevin Durant isn't any good, but something completely different was evident for anyone who watched him play.

Enh this is definitely a fair point and i am prone to do so but KDs stats were substantially better than bookers. But i do get where your coming from, well just have to wait and see.

[Statlanta]

I think simply think that Denver has more assets than Phoenix

[Mystical Apples]

This really isn't that close. Jokic's contract-to-production ratio alone gives Denver the edge (he's the NBA's best value). Actually Jokic, Harris, and Nurkic had a combined VORP of 4.9 for < $5M and 3 years still remaining on their deals.

I'd also prefer Murray-Hernangomez-Beasely + the extra 2017 over Bender-Chriss-Ulis + Miami's 2018. I'm not high on Mudiay but I'd also take his prospects over the potential price required to replace Len and Chandler.

[ImNotMcDiSwear]

And I wanted to do this anyway so here's how I think the other assets stack up:
Bledsoe > Gallo (because he's locked in but it's still close imo)
Mudiay > Bender
Murray > Chriss (whom draftexpress had going at 4 cause they hated bender and him at the end of top 10, but no-one talked about chriss as a candidate for the 3rd pick that I saw, consensus by draft time was that should have been Dunn, not bender or chriss)
Harris > TJ Warren
Nurkic > / = Len
Hernangomez > ?

And so on. Denver has more assets too. The only argument that phoenix is even on this level is the one someone made earlier that they are further away from being a good team and thus their picks over the next few years are worth considerably more. But given the talent Denver has already accumulated, unless phoenix is like bottom 3 this year and can grab Harry Giles or something Idk, I just don't think they're close in terms of total assets. Denver is pretty clearly ahead of most teams, maybe top 5 or 8 in the league. Phoenix is more middle of the road till we see how their picks work over the next couple years.

Cool. Here's I how I see it. In order of value by category, for each team:

1. The Youngs

Booker vs. Jokic
Adv: Suns, by one first rounder

I've watched a lot more of the former than the latter, but from what I can tell, Booker is surefire multiple time all-star. His combination of size, shooting and ball-handling is very rare. Booker will almost certainly be a marquee player. As for Jokic - I like him, he plays steady, is physical underneath, productive on defense, and shoots very well from distance. If you want to take the angle that Jokic is more valuable because he's a "modern NBA 5" - hmm. I don't know. Will he be a marquee center? I... just don't know that. There are lots of solid young centers in the league, and when I watch Jokic play, he's just steady. Surefire good player. Great player? I don't know.

Bender vs. Murray
Adv: Nuggets, by a second rounder

Bender could be special for what appear to me to be obvious reasons, but he's still not done growing into his body, and one can't really be sure about how good he'll be. He didn't exactly light up summer league, while Murray showed what anyone who paid attention to prior to the draft knows: Murray can shoot. Really shoot. Like, as good as Devin Booker shoot. He doesn't impress me as a playmaker (unlike Booker) and probably won't be a great defender (like Booker). Bender could be better but the risk profile is higher with Bender.

Mudiay vs. Chriss
Adv: None

Mudiay I'm really impressed by. Hit the three repeatedly when he played the Suns, and his ball control, body and shooting will make him a player in this league. I think Chriss has a higher ceiling, as I think he'll be a solid two-way player as well. In his second summer league game (before bowing out with illness), Chriss showed he was a solid rim-runner and rebounder, and his mid-range J was smooth. I won't write a ton on this, but I'm happy to revisit the matter in a year (when we rearrange everyone based on their performance).

Warren vs. Harris
Adv: Suns, by one first rounder

Here's the big missing WTF in these analyses (not to mention every other story I read about the Suns). Apparently, people haven't watched enough TJ Warren. Another score-first D-later type for the Suns, but his quick hands and understanding of where to be on the court are uncanny. Shoots a terrific FG% for a small forward and shoots 40% from deep (something no one seems to have any memory of...) with big performances against Oklahoma City and Golden State. Hasn't gotten the PT he's earned, in my opinion. Harris looks okay to me - just okay. Not a high production player, but he's two-way, which is nice. A role player, in my eyes. While TJ, IMO,will be a 20 PPG scorer in this league if he gets the chance.

Len vs. Nurkic
Adv: Suns, by one second rounder

For all the derision Len's stock has received on account of injury issues, Len played 78 games last year. Confidence appears to be a HUGE factor with him, which is problematic. Len's athleticism is really underrated, but he doesn't use it all time - probably, frankly, because of his ankle issues in prior seasons, he doesn't often jump when he goes up for a block. Len and Nurkic share an elite proclivity for rebounds, while Nurkic blocked more shots in his limited PT - frankly, I have to rely on stats a bit more for this comparison because I didn't see a ton of Nurkic in action last season. Like Len, Nurkic has looked very good defensively more than he has offensively, though he's shown flashes on offense as well. I give this one to the Suns because of the relative injury histories - Nurkic has played 94 out of a possible career 176 games.

Ulis vs. Hernangomez
Adv: Denver, by one second rounder

I want to say Ulis, and I think the answer is Ulis, but I also recognize my bias. Hernangomez looked great in summer league. Ulis looked a little better, and he's younger. But he was also a second-round pick, and he's 5'9". Let's just revisit this one in a year.

Beasley vs. Goodwin
Adv: Denver, one first rounder

Ah, Archie. How distinct your flashes of brilliance from your statistics. While I believe Archie still holds value in the league (just look at NBA.com's Top 10 plays to see Archie at #1 and #2), he'll never get his chance in Phoenix. Could he have been traded for a mid-first rounder in the 2016 draft? I don't think so. Beasley could be a very good player.

2. Positive Value Veteran Contracts

Bledsoe vs. Gallinari
Adv: Suns, by one first rounder

Two injury-prone players who have shown flashes of greatness. Bledsoe's the two-way player, he's younger and on a better long-term deal. I won't write much about this, but if you disagree, feel free to express yourself.


Knight vs. Fareid
Adv: Suns, by one first rounder

Two value contracts in the modern NBA, both with injury histories, but Knight is on a longer-term deal, is younger, and who possesses the more valuable NBA skill (shooting, as opposed to rebounding). I won't write much about this, but if you disagree, feel free to give voice to your opinion.

Barton vs. Tucker
Adv: Denver, by one second rounder

Could you trade Barton for a first rounder? I don't think so. I think PJ's probably worth two seconds. I think Barton is worth more - largely because his deal is one year longer.

Dudley, Barbosa, Chandler contracts vs. Darrell Arthur
Adv: Denver, by one second rounder

The Nuggets should have tremendous flexibility to add to their young core, while the Suns have locked in three veterans for the next 2, 3 and 3 years, respectively. I think Darrell Arthur might be worth one second rounder I do not believe that at this point, the Chandler contract has positive value. I can't be sure that unless he's traded - and that looks unlikely before and unless a couple centers get hit by the injury bug later this season. I have him as negative two second rounders. Dudley appears to be a plus-value contract this year, and I think that will continue to be true over at least the next two years. I have him as positive two second rounders. I don't think Barbosa's contract holds any intrinsic value.


3. Future Picks:
Nuggets: 2017 first rounder from Memphis; net one future second rounder
Suns: 2018 first rounder from Heat; 2021 first rounder from Heat; zero future second rounders
Adv: Suns, by the difference between the Heat's unprotected 2021 pick and one second rounder - I'll assign that the value a full first rounder

Total
Adv: Suns, by a length of four first rounders, less two second rounders

So, yeah, I disagree with most people here. Let's revisit in a year, and may the injury bug spare everyone above!

[jayjaysee]

but it's easier to have more efficient numbers when you're not playing big minutes every night.

Yes, as Booker did. His season stats mix a really efficient start with moderate usage AND a poor efficiency the later portion of the season with too high of usage.

Devin Booker's stats after ASG: 19.2 points / 3.0 rebounds / 4.1 assists.

To go along with a solid 40.1% FG, 28.7% from 3, resulting in a scary 50.2 TS% and a moderate 3 turnovers a game with those 4.1 assists.

This isn't my opinion of the thread, just don't like when people try to sell Booker's post-ASG like this. He got put in a really bad situation because of injuries and no one told him to stop. Kobe's last game was cool, but it wasn't really impressive.

As a Mavs fan, I don't remember what it was like to have assets like either of these two.. So, I take either and run.

I'd actually take Booker cause I'd gamble on him not being so inefficient if Bledsoe (or another capable offensive option) is next to him. But Jokic is much safer bet.

I'd take Mudiay/Murray/Gallo/Jokic over Bledsoe/Booker/Bender/Chriss without hesitating. I'm really big on Mudiay/Murray though.

Phoenix's 2021 Miami pick is pretty exciting imo

[damecurry]

And I wanted to do this anyway so here's how I think the other assets stack up:
Bledsoe > Gallo (because he's locked in but it's still close imo)
Mudiay > Bender
Murray > Chriss (whom draftexpress had going at 4 cause they hated bender and him at the end of top 10, but no-one talked about chriss as a candidate for the 3rd pick that I saw, consensus by draft time was that should have been Dunn, not bender or chriss)
Harris > TJ Warren
Nurkic > / = Len
Hernangomez > ?

And so on. Denver has more assets too. The only argument that phoenix is even on this level is the one someone made earlier that they are further away from being a good team and thus their picks over the next few years are worth considerably more. But given the talent Denver has already accumulated, unless phoenix is like bottom 3 this year and can grab Harry Giles or something Idk, I just don't think they're close in terms of total assets. Denver is pretty clearly ahead of most teams, maybe top 5 or 8 in the league. Phoenix is more middle of the road till we see how their picks work over the next couple years.

Cool. Here's I how I see it. In order of value by category, for each team:


Barton vs. Tucker
Adv: Denver, by one second rounder

Could you trade Barton for a first rounder? I don't think so. I think PJ's probably worth two seconds. I think Barton is worth more - largely because his deal is one year longer.


Total
Adv: Suns, by a length of four first rounders, less two second rounders

So, yeah, I disagree with most people here. Let's revisit in a year, and may the injury bug spare everyone above!

Most of this was crazy and totally off-base to me and I'm not devoting the time to point out why in each and every case, so I'll just use the most absurd as an example. Could you trade Barton for a 1st? There are trades being posted on this board of Barton for the 2018 BOS 1st and 2019 LAC 1st and people saying they think he could net more. I don't necessarily agree with that but you're talking about a guy who was on the fringe of the 6th moy conversation last year, in his first year in a large role, who's 25 years old and is making 3.5m for the next two seasons, and you think that player is worth 1 2nd round pick more than a 31 year old who had worse production last year and is expiring at 5.3m this year? Sorry but what? I'd agree that for the right team in need of a solid defender/rebounder at the backup SF position, Tucker's worth about 2 2nds. For a team in need of a jamal crawford type sixth man, Barton is easily worth a 1st and 2 2nds (I'd argue more but I think that is a fair floor for his value.) So he's worth a 1st more and I think a vast majority would agree with that. You can extrapolate that value difference over almost every player comparision you had there, short of bledsoe vs. gallo who you have accurately valued. The rest all screams of fandom overvaluing, ala the kings fans who claim gallo/jokic/murrayand 2 1sts is terrible value for Demarcus Cousins and Rudy Gay.

[eathb_au]

I'm quote confident that Jokic would average way more than 20ppg if we let him shoot 17 times a game.

[ImNotMcDiSwear]

And I wanted to do this anyway so here's how I think the other assets stack up:
Bledsoe > Gallo (because he's locked in but it's still close imo)
Mudiay > Bender
Murray > Chriss (whom draftexpress had going at 4 cause they hated bender and him at the end of top 10, but no-one talked about chriss as a candidate for the 3rd pick that I saw, consensus by draft time was that should have been Dunn, not bender or chriss)
Harris > TJ Warren
Nurkic > / = Len
Hernangomez > ?

And so on. Denver has more assets too. The only argument that phoenix is even on this level is the one someone made earlier that they are further away from being a good team and thus their picks over the next few years are worth considerably more. But given the talent Denver has already accumulated, unless phoenix is like bottom 3 this year and can grab Harry Giles or something Idk, I just don't think they're close in terms of total assets. Denver is pretty clearly ahead of most teams, maybe top 5 or 8 in the league. Phoenix is more middle of the road till we see how their picks work over the next couple years.

Cool. Here's I how I see it. In order of value by category, for each team:


Barton vs. Tucker
Adv: Denver, by one second rounder

Could you trade Barton for a first rounder? I don't think so. I think PJ's probably worth two seconds. I think Barton is worth more - largely because his deal is one year longer.


Total
Adv: Suns, by a length of four first rounders, less two second rounders

So, yeah, I disagree with most people here. Let's revisit in a year, and may the injury bug spare everyone above!

Most of this was crazy and totally off-base to me and I'm not devoting the time to point out why in each and every case, so I'll just use the most absurd as an example. Could you trade Barton for a 1st? There are trades being posted on this board of Barton for the 2018 BOS 1st and 2019 LAC 1st and people saying they think he could net more. I don't necessarily agree with that but you're talking about a guy who was on the fringe of the 6th moy conversation last year, in his first year in a large role, who's 25 years old and is making 3.5m for the next two seasons, and you think that player is worth 1 2nd round pick more than a 31 year old who had worse production last year and is expiring at 5.3m this year? Sorry but what? I'd agree that for the right team in need of a solid defender/rebounder at the backup SF position, Tucker's worth about 2 2nds. For a team in need of a jamal crawford type sixth man, Barton is easily worth a 1st and 2 2nds (I'd argue more but I think that is a fair floor for his value.) So he's worth a 1st more and I think a vast majority would agree with that. You can extrapolate that value difference over almost every player comparision you had there, short of bledsoe vs. gallo who you have accurately valued. The rest all screams of fandom overvaluing, ala the kings fans who claim gallo/jokic/murrayand 2 1sts is terrible value for Demarcus Cousins and Rudy Gay.

If we're apart on Barton, that's fine. If Ibaka can net what he did with only one year remaining, maybe someone would part with a protected first for two years of Barton at a great salary. A first and two seconds... well, I certainly wouldn't pay it.

On the other hand, compare Gallo, Jokic, Murray and two firsts to "equal value" from the Suns under my metric - Bledsoe, Booker, Bender and a second rounder. Does that look like an unfair deal to you? You can say that Denver fans wouldn't make that deal, but neither would Suns fans - that I can guarantee. We'll just have to wait and see about all of this. The biggest disparities between my value and "popular" opinion on this thread appear to be the relative values of Jokic/Harris and Booker/Warren. I can't imagine my valuation of Chriss, Bender, Len, Ulis, or Goodwin strike anyone as homer-ish. Aside from Booker/Warren vs Jokic/Harris, the Suns' advantage using my metric is reducible to Bledsoe/Knight vs. Gallo/Fareid, which I put at two firsts. If you want to say the disparity between Bledsoe/Knight vs. Gallo/Fareid/Barton is only one first... maybe I could get behind that idea. In which case we've narrowed the disparity to three firsts from four, and the only disparity is Booker/Warren vs Jokic/Harris. I think TJ vs Harris will be resolved next season in my favor. Booker/Jokic we'll have to wait a couple years.

... But how anyone can say the Nuggets are "clearly ahead" of the Suns is beyond my comprehension, looking at a head-to-head comparison. As I said, let's return to this in a year.

[gaspar]

I'm quote confident that Jokic would average way more than 20ppg if we let him shoot 17 times a game.

If it only was that simple.

In 43 games from the start of the season till the end of January Booker averaged 10.0 pts on .579 TS% in 21.7mpg. Jokic for the season averaged 10.0 pts on .582 TS% in 21.7 mpg.

You are kidding yourself, if you think that Jokic would be able to keep up his great efficiency with a much higher usage, playing big minutes as a #1 option on offense.

[eathb_au]

I'm quote confident that Jokic would average way more than 20ppg if we let him shoot 17 times a game.

If it only was that simple.

In 43 games from the start of the season till the end of January Booker averaged 10.0 pts on .579 TS% in 21.7mpg. Jokic for the season averaged 10.0 pts on .582 TS% in 21.7 mpg.

You are kidding yourself, if you think that Jokic would be able to keep up his great efficiency with a much higher usage, playing big minutes as a #1 option on offense.

Well yeah it's difficult, which is why for the 20 mpg Jokic plays, Denver has a star center on the court for that 20 minutes and Jokic's next step is to produce this efficiency at 30+ mpg.

On the other hand, it really isn't difficult to produce Booker's extreme inefficiency with the license to jack up almost 20 shots a game.

While it's fair to argue that Booker may have a higher ceiling there is a significant gap between the current Jokic and Booker at the moment.

[gaspar]

I'm quote confident that Jokic would average way more than 20ppg if we let him shoot 17 times a game.

If it only was that simple.

In 43 games from the start of the season till the end of January Booker averaged 10.0 pts on .579 TS% in 21.7mpg. Jokic for the season averaged 10.0 pts on .582 TS% in 21.7 mpg.

You are kidding yourself, if you think that Jokic would be able to keep up his great efficiency with a much higher usage, playing big minutes as a #1 option on offense.

Well yeah it's difficult, which is why for the 20 mpg Jokic plays, Denver has a star center on the court for that 20 minutes and Jokic's next step is to produce this efficiency at 30+ mpg.

On the other hand, it really isn't difficult to produce Booker's extreme inefficiency with the license to jack up almost 20 shots a game.

While it's fair to argue that Booker may have a higher ceiling there is a significant gap between the current Jokic and Booker at the moment.

It is difficult when we are talking about a teenager. Booker last season was more efficient than rookie LeBron, Durant, Westbrook or Wade. Calling it "extreme inefficiency" is pushing it too far. That's rookie Gary Harris' and Mudiay's specialty.

[torotoe]

I mean, I'm totally impressed with booker, but to call him a one-dimensional player would be very accurate. And his response to the suns need for scoring was beyond impressive for a 19 year old, but the need was there. Most rookies don't get a green light. So, as impressive as he was, I'm not ready to line him up next to other rookies and make a direct comparison. However, I will say look how impressive he was in a role that is completely different than 99.9% of rookies that have ever come through this league.

[BadWolf]

Devin Booker's stats after ASG: 19.2 points / 3.0 rebounds / 4.1 assists.

wasn't that on awful efficiency? terrible advanced stats? one of the worst teams in NBA?
he could improve on all fronts, but right now he's as much fool's gold as anyone in the league

[LloydFree]

Assuming both teams are willing to trade any of their players and picks to get a talent, which team could package the better offer?

Notable players:
> Nuggets: Gallinari, Barton, Mudiay, Murray, Jokic
> Suns: Bledsoe, Len, Bender, Chriss, Booker

Notable picks:
> Nuggets: 2017 Nuggets 1st, 2017 Memphis 1st (Top 5 protected), 2018 Nuggets 1st
> Suns: 2017 Suns 1st, 2018 Miami 1st (Top 7 protected), 2018 Suns 1st

The Sun's easily for me.

The two Miami picks have Gold potential. I like Mudiay, but the PG market is saturated and I think he wouldn't bring as much value as he is really worth. I'd take Bender's potential impact all day over Jokic's impact.

[bwgood77]

I didn't vote here, because I thought it was close, but I'm very happy to have Booker, Warren, Bender, Chriss, and two first coming our way in the next 5 years.

They should be able to play together eventually. Bender, nimble but not explosive vertically, has the length and speed to defend multiple positions along with the makings of 3-point range. Chriss is a leaper with the athletic potential to remind fans of Amaré Stoudemire. The difference, of course, is that Stoudemire was ready in 2002 to average 13.5 points and 8.8 rebounds as a Phoenix rookie before averaging 20.6 in his second year. It is not fair to expect nearly so much of Chriss.

"That guy can play above the rim, he can shoot threes and he can handle the ball really well for his size," said Watson. "He's a baby. They're both babies. We tell him, 'We know you're going to be great. We love that you give us your heart. You two together, with a young and budding Devin Booker, you can't tell me we're not on to something great.'

Chriss was known for losing concentration in his single year at Washington, even as he was averaging 13.7 points, blocking 1.6 shots and shooting 35% from the 3-point line. He is a prodigy who will be pushed this season. "I don't think there's a lot of maturity issues with him, in my opinion," said McDonough. "He's inexperienced. This is all very new to him. But when you talk to him, he's a pretty bright kid with a good head on his shoulders. Starting the year, he struggled, didn't have a lot of good games. Then in the middle of the year, it was about every other game that he played well, then he didn't play well. And then toward the end of the year, the good games far outnumbered the games where he struggled.''

http://www.nba.com/2016/news/features/ian_thomsen/09/04/phoenix-suns-rookie-frontcourt-marquese-chriss-dragan-bender/index.html?cid=nbacomsocial_tw_sf35102993

Bender has the makings of a stretch 4 with the versatility to guard multiple positions, which would enable him to remain on the floor with big or small lineups. But Watson hinted that Bender -- who must mature physically in order to compete in the NBA paint -- sees himself initially as a small forward.

"Bender is a small forward with power forward potential," Watson said. "The safe thing to do is put him at the power forward position. But when you really get to know a player, and you get to know the player before you structure him into what you're wishing he'll be, you have to learn the player's heart, his ambition and his vision. His vision is to play on the perimeter but also to play on the block, or being a pick-and-pop 4.

The Suns are clearly hoping to play through Bender, who can shoot and handle from the perimeter as well as pass one-handed off the dribble. Chriss looks like more of an outright finisher, and so the diversity of their styles may enable them to play together, even though both look as if they'll turn into power forwards as they mature.

[bwgood77]

This really isn't that close. Jokic's contract-to-production ratio alone gives Denver the edge (he's the NBA's best value). Actually Jokic, Harris, and Nurkic had a combined VORP of 4.9 for < $5M and 3 years still remaining on their deals.

I'd also prefer Murray-Hernangomez-Beasely + the extra 2017 over Bender-Chriss-Ulis + Miami's 2018. I'm not high on Mudiay but I'd also take his prospects over the potential price required to replace Len and Chandler.

Phx also has Miami's 2021 pick unprotected which could be huge.