Random Boston Celtic chatter containment

[Golabki]

Given your description of Brown, hard to believe that two teams passed on him. Amazing how the upside of every non-Celtics player is viewed as pessimistically as possible and yet it is nothing but optimism for Celtics players. I'm sure all of these positions pre-dated the draft.

I have high opinions of a lot of players, starting with Embiid and Simmons, both of whom have an opportunity to be transcendent (and I put Brown a tier below that, which would be "franchise" player).

I was actually a huge Okafor fan coming out of Duke. Thought he had clear franchise player potential. The problem was that he showed MAJOR red flags both on and off the court, regressed as a passer, and generally displayed a sort of lazy attitude toward his development.

Noel, I always felt was a bit of a dud. Poor hands, thin thin frame. Excellent mobility but poor strength for the position he plays. Terrible offensive mechanics from shooting to footwork to touch around the basket.

I was actually very high on Brown pre-draft (and Murray). But more importantly than just following scouting reports and running with that (something people seem to have fallen into with Brown), I actually watch the players closely and form my own opinions.

And Brown looks every bit the role of elite wing prospect from his physical profile to his footwork, to reports on his preparation. The kid has major tools, ambixterous finisher, good passer who sees the floor well, dominant in transition, versatile defender, elite of the elite first step quickness and a highly developed low and mid-post game.

Best young PG in the league = Rozier
Best young SF in the league = Brown
Best young big in the league = Olynyk
Best young human in the league = Smart

I've been contained

[Patsfan1081]

And the further we go into the season the more ridiculous the Brown doubters will look for their pre and post draft opinions.

Or the Brown truthers if he falters?

I don't think this rookie season will determine his career and won't overreact either way. Right now he looks exactly like I'd expect him to look--he can score at the rim, but literally nowhere else. He isn't rebounding and he's been poor defensively.

But its easy to look at his production per minute and his FG% and think he's playing better than he really is. He's got a long way to go yet.

To be fair Stevens has a very short rope with rookies and hardly runs plays through them.I might be the one Celtic fan who believes Stevens to be overrated, I saw this with Smart his rookie season also, he was moved to sg and spent most of his night camped out in the corner behind the three point line, I just don't believe Stevens is very good developing young players. Just tonight Brown played his first six minute shift without touching the ball once on offense(not for the lack of trying on his part though). He came back in and made one of two threes quickly then made a mental mistake and was yanked and benched for the rest of the night. I'm still not a fan of Brown as the pick but I will admit so far he's shown a decent midrange game and a ability to post up. His passing has been better than expected but his rebounding has been horrible for somone so athletic, he just hasn't been fighting for any rebounds. As for his defense, man to man has been okay, off the ball however he tends to lose his man and get mixed up on the pick n roll, horrible is a bit of a overstatement as he makes mistakes most rookies do. Brown seems like a player that needs to learn from his mistakes, I just don't think he's a great fit for Boston and it might be difficult for him to reach his potential under Stevens. He would have benifited from going to a lottery team.

[RRFB]

This is a weird thread. The Nuggets aren't trading Gallo for Tyler Zeller and mediocre picks, and they definitely aren't giving Boston Jokic or Nurkic without getting at least Brown back. Sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but the Celtics aren't getting a "franchise player" for Marcus Smart either.

I don't see anyone saying Smart has that value to get a franchise player.

Right here:

if Smart or any of the starters is on the table, (sans Amir), there has to be a franchise player or potential franchise player coming back.

I think he even implied that Smart and Amir Johnson are worth more than a franchise player.

[12buckets]

This is a weird thread. The Nuggets aren't trading Gallo for Tyler Zeller and mediocre picks, and they definitely aren't giving Boston Jokic or Nurkic without getting at least Brown back. Sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but the Celtics aren't getting a "franchise player" for Marcus Smart either.

I don't see anyone saying Smart has that value to get a franchise player.

Right here:

if Smart or any of the starters is on the table, (sans Amir), there has to be a franchise player or potential franchise player coming back.

I think he even implied that Smart and Amir Johnson are worth more than a franchise player.

Sans means without. He was specifically excluding Amir from that list.

And I think a more likely scenario is that he thinks Smart and the other starters (sans Amir) are already pretty damn good and to trade them for any non-stars wouldn't be enough of an upgrade to be worth it. Smart for Gallo shifts the depth around a bit, but overall does it really make a big net effect on winning?

All that's happening here is that a lot of Celtic fans don't think it would.

Sent from my XT1565 using RealGM mobile app

[SMTBSI]

Best young PG in the league = Rozier
Best young SF in the league = Brown
Best young big in the league = Olynyk
Best young human in the league = Smart

I've been contained

Don't forget Mickey!

Spoiler:

MJ | JM

[Texas Chuck]

And the further we go into the season the more ridiculous the Brown doubters will look for their pre and post draft opinions.

Or the Brown truthers if he falters?

I don't think this rookie season will determine his career and won't overreact either way. Right now he looks exactly like I'd expect him to look--he can score at the rim, but literally nowhere else. He isn't rebounding and he's been poor defensively.

But its easy to look at his production per minute and his FG% and think he's playing better than he really is. He's got a long way to go yet.

To be fair Stevens has a very short rope with rookies and hardly runs plays through them.I might be the one Celtic fan who believes Stevens to be overrated, I saw this with Smart his rookie season also, he was moved to sg and spent most of his night camped out in the corner behind the three point line, I just don't believe Stevens is very good developing young players. Just tonight Brown played his first six minute shift without touching the ball once on offense(not for the lack of trying on his part though). He came back in and made one of two threes quickly then made a mental mistake and was yanked and benched for the rest of the night. I'm still not a fan of Brown as the pick but I will admit so far he's shown a decent midrange game and a ability to post up. His passing has been better than expected but his rebounding has been horrible for somone so athletic, he just hasn't been fighting for any rebounds. As for his defense, man to man has been okay, off the ball however he tends to lose his man and get mixed up on the pick n roll, horrible is a bit of a overstatement as he makes mistakes most rookies do. Brown seems like a player that needs to learn from his mistakes, I just don't think he's a great fit for Boston and it might be difficult for him to reach his potential under Stevens. He would have benifited from going to a lottery team.

Horrible probably isn't an overstatement about his defense, but you will note I didn't describe it thusly. I said his defense was poor which I don't believe is inaccurate or exaggerated. And again as I have now explained multiple times--that's not really me trying to knock Brown--its something most young players struggle with.

I wasn't trying to savage Brown, but rather present a more balanced take on him. Oh and Brad Stevens is really really good. Almost no coaches like playing young players because you can't depend on them. Nothing makes coaches crazier than guys who don't know where to be at either end and whom they don't know what they will get from them shift to shift. And on a good team trying to win right now, feeding him 16 mpg is kind of the opposite of what you are accusing him of. But expecting him to feature Brown when he comes into the game is probably misguided. Right now he just needs to get him used to the NBA game and to get his assignments down cold.

[patman52]

This is a weird thread. The Nuggets aren't trading Gallo for Tyler Zeller and mediocre picks, and they definitely aren't giving Boston Jokic or Nurkic without getting at least Brown back. Sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but the Celtics aren't getting a "franchise player" for Marcus Smart either.

I don't see anyone saying Smart has that value to get a franchise player.

Right here:

if Smart or any of the starters is on the table, (sans Amir), there has to be a franchise player or potential franchise player coming back.

I think he even implied that Smart and Amir Johnson are worth more than a franchise player.

it is not referring to Smart himself being worth a star in a trade, but that if he is going out (as part of a package) a star has to be coming back in. Horford and to a lesser extent IT are the only stars on the celts, The players they have now are when they are placed together are more than the sum of their parts. The role that each play in scheme is required for the team to have success, if one of them are removed it has to be for a better player to overcome the "personal fit" of that player in the scheme.

You don't see many celtic fans on this site propose trades of celtic players for that reason.

And "sans" means -does not include- he even put it in parentheses

[BullyKing]

http://basketball.realgm.com/wiretap/243870/Celtics-Tried-To-Trade-Up-For-Joel-Embiid-In-2014

So the Celtics tried to trade 6 and 17 to get up to 3 to Embiid in 2014. Seems to me this only supports the reports that Ainge is consistently making terribly lopsided trade offers. Putting aside the specific players, there is just no way one could reasonable expect to trade from 6 to 3 for the 17th pick.

[BringtheD]

I like brown more than I thought I would. 17pts tonight. I'd have to say the early results indicate he will be pretty good. ainge made the right choice, but he's got sooo much to prove before I think he matches the hype.

[Warriorfan]

Due to the escalating cap teams won't be trading stars because there is hope and space to add a good player. Bos can win now plus has a good future. If Chi or Sac go bad I think both teams may be looking for rebuilds in 2018.

[Patsfan1081]

Or the Brown truthers if he falters?

I don't think this rookie season will determine his career and won't overreact either way. Right now he looks exactly like I'd expect him to look--he can score at the rim, but literally nowhere else. He isn't rebounding and he's been poor defensively.

But its easy to look at his production per minute and his FG% and think he's playing better than he really is. He's got a long way to go yet.

To be fair Stevens has a very short rope with rookies and hardly runs plays through them.I might be the one Celtic fan who believes Stevens to be overrated, I saw this with Smart his rookie season also, he was moved to sg and spent most of his night camped out in the corner behind the three point line, I just don't believe Stevens is very good developing young players. Just tonight Brown played his first six minute shift without touching the ball once on offense(not for the lack of trying on his part though). He came back in and made one of two threes quickly then made a mental mistake and was yanked and benched for the rest of the night. I'm still not a fan of Brown as the pick but I will admit so far he's shown a decent midrange game and a ability to post up. His passing has been better than expected but his rebounding has been horrible for somone so athletic, he just hasn't been fighting for any rebounds. As for his defense, man to man has been okay, off the ball however he tends to lose his man and get mixed up on the pick n roll, horrible is a bit of a overstatement as he makes mistakes most rookies do. Brown seems like a player that needs to learn from his mistakes, I just don't think he's a great fit for Boston and it might be difficult for him to reach his potential under Stevens. He would have benifited from going to a lottery team.

Horrible probably isn't an overstatement about his defense, but you will note I didn't describe it thusly. I said his defense was poor which I don't believe is inaccurate or exaggerated. And again as I have now explained multiple times--that's not really me trying to knock Brown--its something most young players struggle with.

I wasn't trying to savage Brown, but rather present a more balanced take on him. Oh and Brad Stevens is really really good. Almost no coaches like playing young players because you can't depend on them. Nothing makes coaches crazier than guys who don't know where to be at either end and whom they don't know what they will get from them shift to shift. And on a good team trying to win right now, feeding him 16 mpg is kind of the opposite of what you are accusing him of. But expecting him to feature Brown when he comes into the game is probably misguided. Right now he just needs to get him used to the NBA game and to get his assignments down cold.

I wasn't really accusing you of attacking him and I do understand most coaches stances on rookies, but I'm still I wasn't a fan of how Stevens developed Smart. I haven't seen any improvement from Ainge drafted players playing under him but maybe that could possibly be a knock on Ainge' drafting. I also do not see the poor defense you're referining to with Brown, you said it yourself rookies commonly blow assignments but when it comes to man defense Brown seems to have looked decent, he's,shown good lateral movement and quick hands. He did a decent job on Lebron last night, had three steals, blew one pick n roll and failed to box out TT on a switch, but maybe it's just me looking through green colored glasses.

[Texas Chuck]

I really want to post a Whiteside to Boston trade. It involves this year's first(with pick swap) plus additional assets. Anyone think I should bother or am I just in for a nut-kicking?

[neno]

I really want to post a Whiteside to Boston trade. It involves this year's first(with pick swap) plus additional assets. Anyone think I should bother or am I just in for a nut-kicking?

Celtics showed no interest this off season in him what changed?
Also zizic and a high draft draft pick next year

[GregB]

Wow this thread is making my eyes bleed. I have never seen so many people infer things that weren't actually said to support their own viewpoint.

But, I will say this. I don't expect us to make a move for any player that isn't expiring this year. Because of that, I personally think Andrew Bogut would make the most sense. We have a history of dealing with Dallas. They suck right now and need to rebuild. Something like Zeller and one or two of our lesser picks would make sense.

[Djh7475]

Seems like some people are overreacting to one games while others didn't watch any of the preseason or our other games. I've thought Brown's ceiling was elite level since watching a few of his college games so my long term projections haven't changed all that much. He has a better handle and shot than I expected (his shooting stroke looks good, just needs keeping practicing), and his confidence and work ethic have exceeded my expectations. But he needs to put more effort into rebounding and study film to get a better grasp of our defensive system if he wants to become on of the top 2 way wings in the game.

The part of my opinion (and I'm sure most people feel the same way) that has changed was his floor. Analysts and fans bashed Ainge for taking a raw rookie who would serve no purpose in the near future whose only redeeming quality was his athleticism. Most thought he was a reach and should've been drafted around 8 based on upside alone. However, he looks like arguably the most NBA-ready rookie to come out of college this year. He's got good shooting stroke (just needs to be refined), a great handle, great quickness/speed/strength/explosiveness, great confidence and work ethic, and a willingness to defend (although he still has a lot to learn on that end). He has also started to finish almost everything around the basket which was his only major weakness in the summer league. Unless he plateaus less than a month into his career, he already looks better than a lot of people expected him to look several years down the line.

His numbers will undoubtedly fall over the course of a playoff season, but that won't affect the fact that his ceiling is incredibly high. It will just give us a better baseline of what his floor is. Fans should be happy that he already looks like one of Ainge's smarter moves and will give us a good mix of production and highlight plays this season. However, expecting him to put up numbers that will beat out guys like Embiid or Hield for ROY is a recipe for disappointment. He's shown me enough to where I think he could be end up being the best player out of his draft class (Simmons' injury is not one that is easy to recover from and his jump shot is broken - he'll need to change his form to become a passable shooter outside of 15 feet). However, most ROY's have had unlimited freedom to put up high volume empty numbers. Even if Crowder suffers an extended injury, IT, AB, and Horford aren't going to start forcefeeding Jaylen shots.

[Texas Chuck]

.

But, I will say this. I don't expect us to make a move for any player that isn't expiring this year. Because of that, I personally think Andrew Bogut would make the most sense. We have a history of dealing with Dallas. They suck right now and need to rebuild. Something like Zeller and one or two of our lesser picks would make sense.

Reported for baiting/trolling


But yeah, you are now the 2,164th person who sees merit in a Bogut for Zeller+minor asset deal. It just makes too much sense not to happen.

[RR9]

I really want to post a Whiteside to Boston trade. It involves this year's first(with pick swap) plus additional assets. Anyone think I should bother or am I just in for a nut-kicking?

I'll always hear ya out, TC!