Simple value question: Tyson Chandler or Nerlens Noel

[bwgood77]

If a team is a playoff contender, then Chandler is the man for you. Even at his age, he is still a defensive presence in the paint and is currently a top 5 rebounder in the league (12 rebounds a game in 28 minutes). We dont really know much about his offensive game, as we dont have plays for him and most of his points come from putbacks from rebounds.

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Tyson Chandler doesn't really have a scoring game to speak of. No post moves, limited range, etc....

But, he's an extremely smart offensive player. Very good screen man, great finisher on the PNR, good offensive rebounder, understands spacing and how not to interfere with where the main scorers want to operate. He's led the league in ortg 4 or 5 times in his career. He's an underrated offensive player because he's not a scorer. But he does lots of little things that help an offense succeed. And he did this in New Orleans, in Dallas (both go-arounds), and in New York.

Yes, he doesn't score much, but when he does he's highly efficient. This year he is shooting over 69% and was over 70% for awhile.

[Texas Chuck]

Yes, he doesn't score much, but when he does he's highly efficient. This year he is shooting over 69% and was over 70% for awhile.

Well that's because:

90% of his FGA are within 3 feet of the basket. 54 made FG's, 26 of them are dunks. His last year in Dallas this was even more pronounced as he made roughly 300 FG's and 200 of them were dunks.

He knows and understands his limitations and plays to them. I intentionally didn't cite him having led the league in FG% because I don't think its really significant other than to say he almost never takes ill-advised shots.

[Texas Chuck]

Oh and despite my praise for Chandler itt, I would have Noel as having more value--not to every team, but if both got traded to a team that desired them I think we'd look at the return Philly got as being superior to the return Phoenix got. All this talk about Noel's future contract is well and good, but Tyson's right-now contract means any team trading for him is likely to want to dump some bad money back on Phoenix and while that's not really a negative for Phoenix as they don't really need more cap space in the short term in all liklihood, it does impact the actual value they get in trade.

[bwgood77]

Yes, he doesn't score much, but when he does he's highly efficient. This year he is shooting over 69% and was over 70% for awhile.

Well that's because:

90% of his FGA are within 3 feet of the basket. 54 made FG's, 26 of them are dunks. His last year in Dallas this was even more pronounced as he made roughly 300 FG's and 200 of them were dunks.

He knows and understands his limitations and plays to them. I intentionally didn't cite him having led the league in FG% because I don't think its really significant other than to say he almost never takes ill-advised shots.

Well that's pretty much what I meant is that him not having an offensive game doesn't hurt you unless you need a lot of scoring from your center, because he will chip in about 9 or 10 points a game and only take high percentage shots or dunks. Those points are about as efficient as you can get.

[Lovetron Joe]

Sadly this debate has reared its head in multiple threads on the board today. So as a public service, I'd like the board to weigh in. I believe in the collective wisdom of crowds.

NN is 22 years old with a world of potential. As a RFA, the team getting him can be assured of keeping him if they wish. He runs the floor well, is a terrific shot blocker and team defender. He is improving on offense year by year. Until this year he was a team leader. His current cap hit is $4 million.

After the all-star break last year he averaged 11.5 points, 10.5 rebounds, 2.8 blocks and 2.8 steals. Many consider him to be a future all-star.

Tyson Chandler is 34 years old, on the downside of his career and will be paid $13,000,000 per year until he is a UFA at 37. That is a horrible contract for a declining player. He is on his 6th NBA stop and indicates he "wants no part of being on a rebuilding team".

I am not sure why this is open for debate.

[Texas Chuck]

I am not sure why this is open for debate.

It's open for debate because it was already being debated. I mean that's the easy and obvious answer. I moved it to its own thread since people were talking about and thus other threads didn't get derailed. Then some people have made some reasonable cases for both players itt. You might disagree with some of those who pick Tyson(full disclosure: I think Noel has more value), but clearly there are those who value him more.

[Lovetron Joe]

I am not sure why this is open for debate.

It's open for debate because it was already being debated. I mean that's the easy and obvious answer. I moved it to its own thread since people were talking about and thus other threads didn't get derailed. Then some people have made some reasonable cases for both players itt. You might disagree with some of those who pick Tyson(full disclosure: I think Noel has more value), but clearly there are those who value him more.

It was a rhetorical question.

Here is another, how many players, in their 16th year in the NBA, are expected to improve? If Phoenix were able to get out of his four year $52,000,000 contract, what do you think they would do? What teams would be interested in picking up a declining player at his age, on that contract.

[Texas Chuck]

It was a rhetorical question.

Here is another, how many players, in their 16th year in the NBA, are expected to improve? If Phoenix were able to get out of his four year $52,000,000 contract, what do you think they would do? What teams would be interested in picking up a declining player at his age, on that contract.

I know it was a rhetorical question. But I felt it needed a response. If you don't like the thread feel free to stay out of it. Easy enough.

I hope your question above is rhetorical because no one is arguing that Chandler is still growing as a player. Some are arguing that the collection of skills(tangible and otherwise) might be more valuable to contending teams than Noel is. And while I think Noel has more value, I completely agree with their assessment. And since he's completed nearly 1/3 of his contract let's not frame as 4/$52M because it isn't that for whomever trades for him.

[TTP]

I don't think this is close. The question is about trade value. Noel is an asset. Chandler is probably a negative - I'm not sure that the Suns could even give Chandler away for free.

[TTP]

Also the people that are analyzing expected production for a playoff team vs rebuilding team are not examining the correct argument. There's a great difference between arguing who the better player is and which player has the most trade value when considering contracts. From a trade value perspective, if Chandler's contract is a negative asset, it doesn't really matter how much he's able to contribute to a playoff team this year relative to Noel.

[Kerrsed]

Also the people that are analyzing expected production for a playoff team vs rebuilding team are not examining the correct argument. There's a great difference between arguing who the better player is and which player has the most trade value when considering contracts. From a trade value perspective, if Chandler's contract is a negative asset, it doesn't really matter how much he's able to contribute to a playoff team this year relative to Noel.

There have only been a few out of the many replies that view him as a negative asset, with you being one of them.

He isnt a negative asset. Suns already had trade offers for him in the offseason, and we approached Chandler with them (thinking he would want to move on) and he said he wanted to stay, as he like the team and the family atmosphere that Coach Watson has created. We have the capspace and dont need to trade him, therefore those trade offers were not about us dumping him and him being a negative asset.

It also seems like there has been a major influx in Chandler trades proposed not just here on the trade board, but also by other teams posters on the Suns board. Weird how someone would be in somewhat demand, yet considered by some as a negative asset that we would have to add more assets to just get rid of.

[Foshan]

Wow, this thread seems like its in line with the folks who are trying to depress Noel's value so that they can get him on their team for nothing.

I can't see any team, given a choice between the two, rebuilding or contending is taking Chandler over Noel. No way. Chandler with his age and injury history is probably more likely to not finish the season than Noel is. Noel is an incredible defensive player and as good a lob catcher/easy offense guy as are around.

[TTP]

Also the people that are analyzing expected production for a playoff team vs rebuilding team are not examining the correct argument. There's a great difference between arguing who the better player is and which player has the most trade value when considering contracts. From a trade value perspective, if Chandler's contract is a negative asset, it doesn't really matter how much he's able to contribute to a playoff team this year relative to Noel.

There have only been a few out of the many replies that view him as a negative asset, with you being one of them.

He isnt a negative asset. Suns already had trade offers for him in the offseason, and we approached Chandler with them (thinking he would want to move on) and he said he wanted to stay, as he like the team and the family atmosphere that Coach Watson has created. We have the capspace and dont need to trade him, therefore those trade offers were not about us dumping him and him being a negative asset.

It also seems like there has been a major influx in Chandler trades proposed not just here on the trade board, but also by other teams posters on the Suns board. Weird how someone would be in somewhat demand, yet considered by some as a negative asset that we would have to add more assets to just get rid of.

I give very little credibility to any trade rumors that don't actually happen. We have no idea what was actually offered.

I give even less credibility to the trade interests and proposals of randoms on these forums. There are a lot of uninformed people posting nonsense all over the place.

Looking at Chandler's decreasing production, factoring in typical age curves, and looking at the current supply of available big men and the contracts handed out in free agency, it seems pretty unlikely Chandler is a positive value.

[psman2]

Lets just have a simple roll call for your favorite team.

Rockets:

Noel: Would give up 2017 1st, 2017 Den and Portland 2nds, and KJ McDaniels who has a team option next year. Not a lot of value but maybe it is the best offer in the end.

Chandler: Maybe give up Brewer and KJ at the deadline if GS has some kind of injury and I want to go for it this year. I wouldn't want to jeopardize next year's max cap space for Chandler or be forced to move him with assets to make the space if needed in the offseason.

What are your teams best offer?

[Tim Lehrbach]

Wow, this thread seems like its in line with the folks who are trying to depress Noel's value so that they can get him on their team for nothing.

What does this mean?

I would be very surprised to find out that anybody here believes their posts affect the trade value of NBA basketball players. Unless you think some among us are also members of the media or NBA front offices out there spreading unflattering stories about Noel, I can't imagine how this thread would be related to any campaign being waged by covetous GMs or their media pawns to pry Noel from Philadelphia.

[Foshan]

Wow, this thread seems like its in line with the folks who are trying to depress Noel's value so that they can get him on their team for nothing.

What does this mean?

I would be very surprised to find out that anybody here believes their posts affect the trade value of NBA basketball players. Unless you think some among us are also members of the media or NBA front offices out there spreading unflattering stories about Noel, I can't imagine how this thread would be related to any campaign being waged by covetous GMs or their media pawns to pry Noel from Philadelphia.

Basically any time a Noel trade comes up here, said team who wants him looks to come up with all of the reasons they should get his services free. This thread is going to add to that list.

Trade him to our team... he's worse than Chandler, we'll take him off your hands ... blah blah blah

Or maybe I'm just not understanding how this thread is suppose to work. Like is this value in a vacuum? So get rid of all the health concerns/money concerns/trade hoops to get either guy and so who would u want? Or is this like real life? I guess I just don't know that I even see contending teams with the salary available to make a move to add a 12M+ center in Chandler (and would be cool with him aging at big money, severely influncing their ability to sign next off season) vs having Noel at his current salary and then matching/signing Noel next off-season.

[brackdan70]

Wouldn't Noel need a second Acl tear before he got a third one?

hmmmm, that is a challenging riddle.....i'll get back to you.

[brackdan70]

I think Noel has significantly more trade value, but I could see a team in a win now mode wanting Chandler more, but that does not mean has much if any trade value.

Noel, despite injuries and a little tude recently is still a very high upside player that can help a good team now.

[Tim Lehrbach]

Wow, this thread seems like its in line with the folks who are trying to depress Noel's value so that they can get him on their team for nothing.

What does this mean?

I would be very surprised to find out that anybody here believes their posts affect the trade value of NBA basketball players. Unless you think some among us are also members of the media or NBA front offices out there spreading unflattering stories about Noel, I can't imagine how this thread would be related to any campaign being waged by covetous GMs or their media pawns to pry Noel from Philadelphia.

Basically any time a Noel trade comes up here, said team who wants him looks to come up with all of the reasons they should get his services free. This thread is going to add to that list.

Trade him to our team... he's worse than Chandler, we'll take him off your hands ... blah blah blah

Or maybe I'm just not understanding how this thread is suppose to work. Like is this value in a vacuum? So get rid of all the health concerns/money concerns/trade hoops to get either guy and so who would u want? Or is this like real life? I guess I just don't know that I even see contending teams with the salary available to make a move to add a 12M+ center in Chandler (and would be cool with him aging at big money, severely influncing their ability to sign next off season) vs having Noel at his current salary and then matching/signing Noel next off-season.

OK, so you think we're wrong if we don't put tremendous value on Noel. That's fine. We might be way off. (Worth pointing out that I'm not even sure anymore what the high and low ends of his RealGM value range are after all this protracted, impassioned debate.)

What doesn't make sense to me is why anybody here would just dishonestly downplay a player's value. So they could bully a Philly fan to agree to an imaginary trade on RealGM that is so far away from Noel's real value that it stands no chance of ever happening? Seems pretty pointless. Guess I don't understand the insinuation that anybody would be, uh, "negotiating" in bad faith here. We'll only ever arrive at good ideas or worthwhile information here to the extent that we try to represent teams' actual interests and players' actual (or actually perceived) value. Deliberately selling somebody's worth short on RealGM would be pretty dumb. I've been posting here for 15 years (yikes!) and never thought of doing that, nor assumed anybody else would.

[SMTBSI]

Count me in among those who take Noel on both a rebuilding and a win-now team.

Does the expected short-term contribution tilt so far in Chandler's favor, that it's worth it to pass on a youth infusion that has a chance to extend your window or help you transition into a new one?

I don't even value Noel that highly. But, every team can use youthy upside.

Wouldn't Noel need a second Acl tear before he got a third one?

hmmmm, that is a challenging riddle.....i'll get back to you.

What if he tore them both simultaneously? They can't both be "second". But nor is either "third"...