T&T board top 10 worst contracts - Vote for #2

Moderators: pacers33granger, BullyKing, HartfordWhalers, Texas Chuck, Andre Roberstan, MoneyTalks41890, loserX, Trader_Joe, Mamba4Goat

SNPA
General Manager
Posts: 9,320
And1: 8,679
Joined: Apr 15, 2020

Re: T&T board top 10 worst contracts - Vote for #2 

Post#21 » by SNPA » Sun Jan 31, 2021 8:29 am

babyjax13 wrote:V: Love
N: Harrison Barnes (see below)

babyjax13 wrote:Below average starter at either forward position making ~$20 million/year for 3 seasons when he should be making around $10 million.

EDIT: I've been pretty consistent on the Harrison Barnes is a terrible contract bandwagon, but I'll elaborate.

BPM --- RAPTOR --- RPM
2012-13 --- [-1.7] --- [N/A] --- [-1.13]
2013-14 --- [-1.6] --- [-3.8] --- [-4.16]
2014-15 --- [0.1] --- [-0.5] --- [0.07]
2015-16 --- [-1.3] --- [-1.7] --- [-0.65]
2016-17 --- [-0.8] --- [-0.2] --- [-0.97]
2017-18 --- [-0.5] --- [-1.5] --- [-1.54]
2018-19 --- [-1.4] --- [-1.3] --- [-0.26]
2019-20 --- [-1.4] --- [-1.4] --- [-1.02]
2020-21 --- [0.2] --- [2.7] --- [-0.09]

In almost every season, on almost every team, he has been a negative value player as a starter. So yes, he has size, and he can shoot, and despite that has still managed to be a net-negative as a starter every year of his career except this season, and as of right now, we have a small sample. Maybe he keeps it up all season, if so, that's great! But it's not the Harrison Barnes we've seen for 612 games before this season.

Just take last year as an example, he was 257th (79th at SF) in RAPTOR and 170th (53rd at SF) in RAPTOR WAR last season, that puts him in a rough group with:

Troy Brown Jr.
Andrew Wiggins
Reggie Bullock
James Ennis
Doug McDermott
Cedi Osman
Trevor Ariza
Cam Johnson
Kyle Anderson
Dillon Brooks

And a good chunk of those guys made $8-$13 million a year, and some were even considered overpaid at that [but I'd say it's roughly appropriate]. So, let's say at best, using these players as approximate peers, that Barnes should be a $13 million/year player (entirely appropriate for a 6th or 7th man, or your 5th best starter - probably the role Barnes should be in, a team's 5th to 7th best player), that has him overpaid by $9 million this year, $7 million the next, and $5 million the year after.

Heck, we can even go to 538's player rater, which rates Barnes as a $4.5 million player for this season (so the rough approximation above may be too high from a standpoint that considers metrics absent anything else): https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/2021-nba-player-projections/harrison-barnes/

Even going by your valuation (which I don’t think reflects what Barnes would get as FA today) you are still only talking about a guy overpaid by 20 over three years. A guy that plays the most in demand position, for a team that always pays a small market tax to sign FA. Basically this is just an so so over pay. It’s nothing like the other deals listed in terms of scale. He just doesn’t belong on a list like this that stops at 10.
User avatar
babyjax13
RealGM
Posts: 35,972
And1: 18,463
Joined: Jul 02, 2006
Location: Fresno, eating Birria
     

Re: T&T board top 10 worst contracts - Vote for #2 

Post#22 » by babyjax13 » Sun Jan 31, 2021 9:07 am

SNPA wrote:
babyjax13 wrote:V: Love
N: Harrison Barnes (see below)

babyjax13 wrote:Below average starter at either forward position making ~$20 million/year for 3 seasons when he should be making around $10 million.

EDIT: I've been pretty consistent on the Harrison Barnes is a terrible contract bandwagon, but I'll elaborate.

BPM --- RAPTOR --- RPM
2012-13 --- [-1.7] --- [N/A] --- [-1.13]
2013-14 --- [-1.6] --- [-3.8] --- [-4.16]
2014-15 --- [0.1] --- [-0.5] --- [0.07]
2015-16 --- [-1.3] --- [-1.7] --- [-0.65]
2016-17 --- [-0.8] --- [-0.2] --- [-0.97]
2017-18 --- [-0.5] --- [-1.5] --- [-1.54]
2018-19 --- [-1.4] --- [-1.3] --- [-0.26]
2019-20 --- [-1.4] --- [-1.4] --- [-1.02]
2020-21 --- [0.2] --- [2.7] --- [-0.09]

In almost every season, on almost every team, he has been a negative value player as a starter. So yes, he has size, and he can shoot, and despite that has still managed to be a net-negative as a starter every year of his career except this season, and as of right now, we have a small sample. Maybe he keeps it up all season, if so, that's great! But it's not the Harrison Barnes we've seen for 612 games before this season.

Just take last year as an example, he was 257th (79th at SF) in RAPTOR and 170th (53rd at SF) in RAPTOR WAR last season, that puts him in a rough group with:

Troy Brown Jr.
Andrew Wiggins
Reggie Bullock
James Ennis
Doug McDermott
Cedi Osman
Trevor Ariza
Cam Johnson
Kyle Anderson
Dillon Brooks

And a good chunk of those guys made $8-$13 million a year, and some were even considered overpaid at that [but I'd say it's roughly appropriate]. So, let's say at best, using these players as approximate peers, that Barnes should be a $13 million/year player (entirely appropriate for a 6th or 7th man, or your 5th best starter - probably the role Barnes should be in, a team's 5th to 7th best player), that has him overpaid by $9 million this year, $7 million the next, and $5 million the year after.

Heck, we can even go to 538's player rater, which rates Barnes as a $4.5 million player for this season (so the rough approximation above may be too high from a standpoint that considers metrics absent anything else): https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/2021-nba-player-projections/harrison-barnes/

Even going by your valuation (which I don’t think reflects what Barnes would get as FA today) you are still only talking about a guy overpaid by 20 over three years. A guy that plays the most in demand position, for a team that always pays a small market tax to sign FA. Basically this is just an so so over pay. It’s nothing like the other deals listed in terms of scale. He just doesn’t belong on a list like this that stops at 10.


After the 7 players nominated, who is overpaid by 20 million total over a three year span? Barnes, and Tobias Harris? But Harris is the better player, so, to me at least, that makes Barnes a worse contract. I don't think he is as bad of a contract as any of the players nominated thus far, and maybe Draymond and/or Adams should be nominated before him (though, again, I think they are both better players overpaid by a similar amount), but that still leaves him as a viable nomination in this process. I have him as about the 10th worst contract in the league and I'm flip-flopping between him and Draymond in terms of who should be nominated, but ultimately I think Draymond is a ceiling raiser while Barnes is just...meh.
Image

JazzMatt13 wrote:just because I think aliens probably have to do with JFK, doesn't mean my theory that Jazz will never get Wiggins, isn't true.

JColl
Wolveswin
General Manager
Posts: 8,455
And1: 3,155
Joined: Aug 22, 2020
 

Re: T&T board top 10 worst contracts - Vote for #2 

Post#23 » by Wolveswin » Sun Jan 31, 2021 11:14 am

V: Klay
N: Hayward
User avatar
puppa bear
Lead Assistant
Posts: 5,361
And1: 4,500
Joined: Jan 06, 2006
Location: Perth, Australia
   

Re: T&T board top 10 worst contracts - Vote for #2 

Post#24 » by puppa bear » Sun Jan 31, 2021 12:23 pm

Vote: Klay
Nominate: Dray
basketballwacko2
RealGM
Posts: 22,180
And1: 4,378
Joined: May 11, 2002
Location: Just outside of No where.
     

Re: T&T board top 10 worst contracts - Vote for #2 

Post#25 » by basketballwacko2 » Sun Jan 31, 2021 12:32 pm

Kevin Love

Nominate: Wiggins
HartfordWhalers
Senior Mod - 76ers and NBA TnT Forum
Senior Mod - 76ers and NBA TnT Forum
Posts: 47,330
And1: 20,926
Joined: Apr 07, 2010
 

Re: T&T board top 10 worst contracts - Vote for #2 

Post#26 » by HartfordWhalers » Sun Jan 31, 2021 2:50 pm

Klay makes sense to me here.

A few players who would likely be next nominated have started the year off really hot (CJ, Tobias, Rozier, Hayward). Will be interesting to see if those players fall back to Earth, and not including them because of a hot 15 games was a lot of what have you done for me lately.
In that regard, I think Westbrook first was fine as I had him as worse before the season and the trade as a loss for Washington then. :wink:
E S V L
Analyst
Posts: 3,394
And1: 960
Joined: Dec 19, 2017

Re: T&T board top 10 worst contracts - Vote for #2 

Post#27 » by E S V L » Sun Jan 31, 2021 3:04 pm

Wiggins
FK NFL
Wolveswin
General Manager
Posts: 8,455
And1: 3,155
Joined: Aug 22, 2020
 

Re: T&T board top 10 worst contracts - Vote for #2 

Post#28 » by Wolveswin » Sun Jan 31, 2021 3:14 pm

HartfordWhalers wrote:Klay makes sense to me here.

A few players who would likely be next nominated have started the year off really hot (CJ, Tobias, Rozier, Hayward). Will be interesting to see if those players fall back to Earth, and not including them because of a hot 15 games was a lot of what have you done for me lately.
In that regard, I think Westbrook first was fine as I had him as worse before the season and the trade as a loss for Washington then. :wink:

Hayward contract is frightening. 120M for 4 years with 4th year 31.5M for 34yo in season Hayward. Who at that point if oft injured Hayward not sidelined, should be paid role player (Redick?) money for his age and skill set.
Ilovethebay
Pro Prospect
Posts: 825
And1: 206
Joined: Feb 08, 2012
     

Re: T&T board top 10 worst contracts - Vote for #2 

Post#29 » by Ilovethebay » Sun Jan 31, 2021 3:37 pm

Vote: DLO
shrink
RealGM
Posts: 59,837
And1: 19,952
Joined: Sep 26, 2005

Re: T&T board top 10 worst contracts - Vote for #2 

Post#30 » by shrink » Sun Jan 31, 2021 3:50 pm

I am not supporting DeAngelo Russell in any way, but I’m a little disappointed to see the multiple GSW fans (and only GSW fans) have voted for him. If they feel he truly is the second worst contract in the nba on all 30 teams, they are entitled to this opinion. If this is just fan-based voting that has trickled over to the Trade board, it devalues the results, which I like to use as a reference point.

Posters from the Wolves board are probably confused by my post. I am highly criticized for having a negative view on him, and they probably wonder why I would make this post which strengthens my case over there. However, to me it’s more important that we vote impartially to develop a legitimate ranking system, that will help future posters and trade-makers as consensus data.
Sign5 wrote:Yea not happening, I expected a better retort but what do I expect from realgm(ers) in 2025. Just quote and state things that lack context, then repeat the same thing over and over as if something new and profound was said. Just lol.
Magoose
Junior
Posts: 318
And1: 141
Joined: Jun 22, 2007
 

Re: T&T board top 10 worst contracts - Vote for #2 

Post#31 » by Magoose » Sun Jan 31, 2021 4:49 pm

shrink wrote:I am not supporting DeAngelo Russell in any way, but I’m a little disappointed to see the multiple GSW fans (and only GSW fans) have voted for him. If they feel he truly is the second worst contract in the nba on all 30 teams, they are entitled to this opinion. If this is just fan-based voting that has trickled over to the Trade board, it devalues the results, which I like to use as a reference point.

Posters from the Wolves board are probably confused by my post. I am highly criticized for having a negative view on him, and they probably wonder why I would make this post which strengthens my case over there. However, to me it’s more important that we vote impartially to develop a legitimate ranking system, that will help future posters and trade-makers as consensus data.


I'm with you Shrink. DLO's contract is horrible and at this point maybe even worse than Wiggins' contract. And I really hate DLOs style of play and turnstile defense, but being voted for Nr 2 of the worst contracts is just beyond ridiculous and totally biased fanbase vote. :crazy:

That said, even tho I like Klay as a player and what he is capable of when healthy but the contract with 2 serious season ending injuries in a row is scary as hell. That might change next season when he's back healthy and proven to be again his former self.

=>
v: Klay
n: Eric Gordon
Kukoc-Lauri
Bench Warmer
Posts: 1,255
And1: 414
Joined: Oct 20, 2020

Re: T&T board top 10 worst contracts - Vote for #2 

Post#32 » by Kukoc-Lauri » Sun Jan 31, 2021 4:52 pm

Otto Porter 28,5 mil, luckly expiring. Guy was constantly injured and when plays he is just rotational guy. Somehow nobody question or critique him. Excpetation for him is so low, like vet min player. Second Bulls free up that cap space with one or two servicable players, they are in playpffs.
Sactowndog
Kings Forum Mock Draft Champ
Posts: 4,486
And1: 1,832
Joined: May 27, 2017

Re: T&T board top 10 worst contracts - Vote for #2 

Post#33 » by Sactowndog » Sun Jan 31, 2021 5:09 pm

Vote: Griffin
Wall and Klay are still unknowns and can’t put an unknown this high

Nominate: Davis Bertans. The contract isnt obscene but the production has been poor.
Ilovethebay
Pro Prospect
Posts: 825
And1: 206
Joined: Feb 08, 2012
     

Re: T&T board top 10 worst contracts - Vote for #2 

Post#34 » by Ilovethebay » Sun Jan 31, 2021 5:19 pm

shrink wrote:I am not supporting DeAngelo Russell in any way, but I’m a little disappointed to see the multiple GSW fans (and only GSW fans) have voted for him. If they feel he truly is the second worst contract in the nba on all 30 teams, they are entitled to this opinion. If this is just fan-based voting that has trickled over to the Trade board, it devalues the results, which I like to use as a reference point.

Posters from the Wolves board are probably confused by my post. I am highly criticized for having a negative view on him, and they probably wonder why I would make this post which strengthens my case over there. However, to me it’s more important that we vote impartially to develop a legitimate ranking system, that will help future posters and trade-makers as consensus data.

Guilty as charged. I’m lopping in the fact that DLO’s salary is the worst because of the lost draft pick. Fair ? Maybe not. Just my opinion.
daoneandonly
RealGM
Posts: 16,291
And1: 4,248
Joined: May 27, 2004
Location: Masalaland
   

Re: T&T board top 10 worst contracts - Vote for #2 

Post#35 » by daoneandonly » Sun Jan 31, 2021 5:45 pm

Vote: Kevin Love
Nominate: Smiley Kemba Walker

Love's contract is just inexcusable. He's not anywhere near a #1 guy, and now at his age, its just a disaster of a contract. Kemba is not a #1 guy either, but paid like a mega star.
Deuteronomy 30:19 wrote:I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and curse. Therefore choose life, that you and your offspring may live
User avatar
JasonStern
RealGM
Posts: 12,297
And1: 4,312
Joined: Dec 13, 2008
 

Re: T&T board top 10 worst contracts - Vote for #2 

Post#36 » by JasonStern » Sun Jan 31, 2021 5:48 pm

vote Wall - pretty easy choice here considering it's the one contract in the league Westbrook was traded for without giving up heavy value. I'd probably put Wall ahead of Westbrook due to the pick inclusion.

nominate Green - no idea why he's not already on this list. averaging 4ppg/4rpg, owed $22.2M/$24.0M/$25.8M/$27.6M. oof. people would really take this over an overpaid but still mediocre Blake Griffin?

not going to nominate it yet, but Paul George is a sleeper bad contract. unpopular pick as he's productive now, but when he's 35 making $48.7M. yikes.

glad for the first time since 2016 not see a bunch of players Portland either has on their roster or gave the initial contract to.
Because love can burn like a cigarette.
And leave you left with nothing.
Leave you left with nothing.
Mike lorenzo
Analyst
Posts: 3,147
And1: 726
Joined: May 09, 2020
 

Re: T&T board top 10 worst contracts - Vote for #2 

Post#37 » by Mike lorenzo » Sun Jan 31, 2021 6:11 pm

V...Klay (unfortunately)
N...Gordon(Houston)within 4 years with (37/38) they will have to pay you 21 million dollars
1+1=11
Resistance
General Manager
Posts: 9,848
And1: 3,364
Joined: Jan 18, 2016

Re: T&T board top 10 worst contracts - Vote for #2 

Post#38 » by Resistance » Sun Jan 31, 2021 6:27 pm

Mike lorenzo wrote:V...Klay (unfortunately)
N...Gordon(Houston)within 4 years with (37/38) they will have to pay you 21 million dollars




His last season isn't guaranteed. It still isn't a good contract but at least they do have an exit ramp available for the final season.

Spotrac
Gordon

Contract Notes:
2023 non-guaranteed
, fully guaranteed for All-Star team or 500 min (reg)/750 (reg/playoffs) + HOU Championship (@Wojnarowski) (@BobbyMarks)



Basketball Reference
Houston

Eric Gordon
2023-24 is not guaranteed.

Signed 4-yr/$75.6M extension on September 4, 2019.
Signed 4-yr/$53M deal on July 9, 2016.
Mamba4Goat
Forum Mod
Forum Mod
Posts: 11,782
And1: 8,091
Joined: Dec 13, 2013
     

Re: T&T board top 10 worst contracts - Vote for #2 

Post#39 » by Mamba4Goat » Sun Jan 31, 2021 6:43 pm

Vote Klay
Nominate Dray
Rest in peace Mamba. There'll never be another Kobe.
User avatar
FNQ
Retired Mod
Retired Mod
Posts: 62,963
And1: 20,008
Joined: Jul 16, 2006
Location: EOL 6/23
   

Re: T&T board top 10 worst contracts - Vote for #2 

Post#40 » by FNQ » Sun Jan 31, 2021 7:24 pm

shrink wrote:I am not supporting DeAngelo Russell in any way, but I’m a little disappointed to see the multiple GSW fans (and only GSW fans) have voted for him. If they feel he truly is the second worst contract in the nba on all 30 teams, they are entitled to this opinion. If this is just fan-based voting that has trickled over to the Trade board, it devalues the results, which I like to use as a reference point.

Posters from the Wolves board are probably confused by my post. I am highly criticized for having a negative view on him, and they probably wonder why I would make this post which strengthens my case over there. However, to me it’s more important that we vote impartially to develop a legitimate ranking system, that will help future posters and trade-makers as consensus data.


Because he and Westbrook are the 2 players signed to multi-year, max contracts and there's no place they make a team better.

This is a reference point on opinion, not reality.. people cant even agree how trade value works at all in the first place. Do I think its more likely that DLO is traded for an expiring or Klay? I think its obviously Klay because he's actually helped teams win, but here? Klay's the 2nd worst contract in the league.. I mean if we're gonna critique group-think, lets not pretend its just done on team lines here.

Return to Trades and Transactions