DET: Bojan Wiseman Hayes #5 for MIN: KAT

[theBigLip]

I wouldn’t do this from a Detroit perspective.

Not a big deal to give up BB or Hayes. Wiseman is still very young and the #5 is worth a lot and fits better with the timeline of Cade/Ivey/Duren. But in terms of basketball, KAT > BB/Wiseman/#5.

Sure KAT would be interesting, but these huge contracts are not justified unless it is giving you a championship. If not, they just handcuff your franchise to mediocrity (see Lillard, Beal, Lavine).

Does anyone really want to pay this under the new CBA?
2023/24 $36,016,200
2024/25 $50,050,000
2025/26 $54,054,000
2026/27 $58,058,000
2027/28 $62,062,000

The very fact that KAT is available for trade discussions shows that he really isn’t worth that contract.

[DonaldSanders]

I wouldn’t do this from a Detroit perspective.

Not a big deal to give up BB or Hayes. Wiseman is still very young and the #5 is worth a lot and fits better with the timeline of Cade/Ivey/Duren. But in terms of basketball, KAT > BB/Wiseman/#5.

Sure KAT would be interesting, but these huge contracts are not justified unless it is giving you a championship. If not, they just handcuff your franchise to mediocrity (see Lillard, Beal, Lavine).

Does anyone really want to pay this under the new CBA?
2023/24 $36,016,200
2024/25 $50,050,000
2025/26 $54,054,000
2026/27 $58,058,000
2027/28 $62,062,000

The very fact that KAT is available for trade discussions shows that he really isn’t worth that contract.

I understand your position from a fit/salary perspective, but I think you can trade KAT and get even more back in another trade. I'm also not hearing KAT is available for the MIN camp, so I wonder if he really is available.

[jscott]

I wouldn’t do this from a Detroit perspective.

Not a big deal to give up BB or Hayes. Wiseman is still very young and the #5 is worth a lot and fits better with the timeline of Cade/Ivey/Duren. But in terms of basketball, KAT > BB/Wiseman/#5.

Sure KAT would be interesting, but these huge contracts are not justified unless it is giving you a championship. If not, they just handcuff your franchise to mediocrity (see Lillard, Beal, Lavine).

Does anyone really want to pay this under the new CBA?
2023/24 $36,016,200
2024/25 $50,050,000
2025/26 $54,054,000
2026/27 $58,058,000
2027/28 $62,062,000

The very fact that KAT is available for trade discussions shows that he really isn’t worth that contract.

I understand your position from a fit/salary perspective, but I think you can trade KAT and get even more back in another trade. I'm also not hearing KAT is available for the MIN camp, so I wonder if he really is available.

I mean, he could be an available but just not for a collection of 4-5 nickels.

[jscott]

I wouldn’t do this from a Detroit perspective.

Not a big deal to give up BB or Hayes. Wiseman is still very young and the #5 is worth a lot and fits better with the timeline of Cade/Ivey/Duren. But in terms of basketball, KAT > BB/Wiseman/#5.

Sure KAT would be interesting, but these huge contracts are not justified unless it is giving you a championship. If not, they just handcuff your franchise to mediocrity (see Lillard, Beal, Lavine).

Does anyone really want to pay this under the new CBA?
2023/24 $36,016,200
2024/25 $50,050,000
2025/26 $54,054,000
2026/27 $58,058,000
2027/28 $62,062,000

The very fact that KAT is available for trade discussions shows that he really isn’t worth that contract.

Not really. It shows the the CBA was renegotiated and teams need to find a way under the 2nd apron before 24-25.

[breezypeezy]

As a Detroit fan I'd pass on adding Kat and his bloated contract to the MotorCade.

But even were he not to have that expensive contract I'd pass over "fit" concerns for a player that cant coexist with a great defender like Gobert.
I question how good a teamate is this and whether hes just all about his stat line and if he cant handle sharing the court with Ant and Gobert, why do I want him sulking around Ivey and Duren when hes gently reminded this is Cades show?

Kat wouldnt work for me.

[schaffy]

As a Detroit fan I'd pass on adding Kat and his bloated contract to the MotorCade.

But even were he not to have that expensive contract I'd pass over "fit" concerns for a player that cant coexist with a great defender like Gobert.
I question how good a teamate is this and whether hes just all about his stat line and if he cant handle sharing the court with Ant and Gobert, why do I want him sulking around Ivey and Duren when hes gently reminded this is Cades show?

Kat wouldnt work for me.

There has been absolutely 0 concerns about KAT getting along with Ant. They both seem to genuinely like each other and enjoy playing together. And prior to Towns' injury last year, he was the one trying the hardest to get and keep Rudy involved in the offense, often passing up his own opportunities to find Rudy.

The "fit" concerns are primarily on KAT having to spend more time on the perimeter defensively and how much the new cba might limit overall team-building with multiple large contracts on the books. He tries and works hard defensively but there's just foot speed limitations most 7' have moving around out there.

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[theBigLip]

I wouldn’t do this from a Detroit perspective.

Not a big deal to give up BB or Hayes. Wiseman is still very young and the #5 is worth a lot and fits better with the timeline of Cade/Ivey/Duren. But in terms of basketball, KAT > BB/Wiseman/#5.

Sure KAT would be interesting, but these huge contracts are not justified unless it is giving you a championship. If not, they just handcuff your franchise to mediocrity (see Lillard, Beal, Lavine).

Does anyone really want to pay this under the new CBA?
2023/24 $36,016,200
2024/25 $50,050,000
2025/26 $54,054,000
2026/27 $58,058,000
2027/28 $62,062,000

The very fact that KAT is available for trade discussions shows that he really isn’t worth that contract.

I understand your position from a fit/salary perspective, but I think you can trade KAT and get even more back in another trade. I'm also not hearing KAT is available for the MIN camp, so I wonder if he really is available.

Totally disagree with that. These contracts become toxic. You can’t flip Gorbert. Simmons is stuck on the Nets. Westbrook was a fiasco.

[gswhoops]

Wiseman was traded less than 6 months ago for a handful of second round picks. No one in the league sees him as a “potential franchise player”

[theBigLip]

Wiseman was traded less than 6 months ago for a handful of second round picks. No one in the league sees him as a “potential franchise player”

I certainly don’t see him as that but he is all of 22 years old. Players don’t hit their prime until 25-29 range. He’s still got a few more years to get to “starter” level.

[Kalamazoo317]

I wouldn’t do this from a Detroit perspective.

Not a big deal to give up BB or Hayes. Wiseman is still very young and the #5 is worth a lot and fits better with the timeline of Cade/Ivey/Duren. But in terms of basketball, KAT > BB/Wiseman/#5.

Sure KAT would be interesting, but these huge contracts are not justified unless it is giving you a championship. If not, they just handcuff your franchise to mediocrity (see Lillard, Beal, Lavine).

Does anyone really want to pay this under the new CBA?
2023/24 $36,016,200
2024/25 $50,050,000
2025/26 $54,054,000
2026/27 $58,058,000
2027/28 $62,062,000

The very fact that KAT is available for trade discussions shows that he really isn’t worth that contract.

I understand your position from a fit/salary perspective, but I think you can trade KAT and get even more back in another trade. I'm also not hearing KAT is available for the MIN camp, so I wonder if he really is available.

Totally disagree with that. These contracts become toxic. You can’t flip Gorbert. Simmons is stuck on the Nets. Westbrook was a fiasco.

It's a shooter's league. None of those guys can. Whereas KAT is possibly the best shooter in the league at the 5.

[shrink]

But even were he not to have that expensive contract I'd pass over "fit" concerns for a player that cant coexist with a great defender like Gobert.
I question how good a teamate is this and whether hes just all about his stat line and if he cant handle sharing the court with Ant and Gobert, why do I want him sulking around Ivey and Duren when hes gently reminded this is Cades show?

What?!? If you don’t want KAT, that’s cool, but your take is completely backwards.

First, KAT was very excited about adding Gobert’s talent to the team, even though he was giving up a center position that he had just earned All NBA honors. Name any other All NBA player who would do that?! And when Gobert arrived, Towns (not DLo and not Ant), was working harder than anyone to feed him. He was passing up shots he can make because he wanted Gobert happy to be there.

As for sharing the court with Ant, this also should be a strength of KAT, not a weakness! KAT does not have an alpha personality, and he is much better on and off the court when someone else takes that role. He put up tremendous numbers when Jimmy was there, and the previous seasons the media focused on Ant’s development and PatBev’s mouth. Towns has been forced to be the alpha in previous situations because of the lack of talent and leadership on some pretty bad teams. Can you imagine Andrew Wiggins leading a team?

I would have your attitude concerns about most any other player of Towns skill level that DET traded for. They are almost all Alphas. But KAT doesn’t want that role, and as Ant takes up that many, it’s one very strong reason MIN should not trade him.

[shrink]

I get that people don’t like Towns - he’s hard to like sometimes with his whining about fouls, and weirdo comments he makes. I get that people want to make him personally responsible for MIN’s lack of team success, despite some awful teams and constant turnover. And I get that people don’t watch Minnesota. Over the last ten years, they’ve given fans very little reason to watch.

But Towns also has to be one of the players that people just invent the most crap about, to create reasons to justify their emotions.

I look at all the garbage people accept from stars they like. Towns has never been in trouble with the law. He doesn’t wave guns around, go to strip clubs, and he’s active in the community. Everyone says that he is kind and generous teammates, staff, the media .. everybody. He wants to play .. his first three seasons he played all 82 games. He’s loyal. How many NBA stars HAVEN’T forced their way to another team in trade or free agency? And probably all of them were in better situations than Minnesota. In fact, even when Jimmy was trashing him everywhere in the media, loyal Towns still came out to reporters and gave the company line. On court, his production is great - he can be unguardable offensively. He doesn’t “suck on defense” - he’s improved greatly in the last 2.5 years. His playoff performance is better than people think, though he gets blamed for every loss, and gets no credit for any win. This isn’t the standard people hold other NBA stars to.

At worst, Towns is overly sensitive about criticism, and he gets a ton of it. Some of it is unfair, or even completely made up. He listens to it too much and over-reacts, on and off the floor. He wants to be liked, and he wants to be respected. MIN needs to win more for that to happen, but Towns has always been a high character guy.

[Scoot McGroot]

I wouldn’t do this from a Detroit perspective.

Not a big deal to give up BB or Hayes. Wiseman is still very young and the #5 is worth a lot and fits better with the timeline of Cade/Ivey/Duren. But in terms of basketball, KAT > BB/Wiseman/#5.

Sure KAT would be interesting, but these huge contracts are not justified unless it is giving you a championship. If not, they just handcuff your franchise to mediocrity (see Lillard, Beal, Lavine).

Does anyone really want to pay this under the new CBA?
2023/24 $36,016,200
2024/25 $50,050,000
2025/26 $54,054,000
2026/27 $58,058,000
2027/28 $62,062,000

The very fact that KAT is available for trade discussions shows that he really isn’t worth that contract.

I mean, the salary cap in 2027/28, barring a major issue like another pandemic or loss of a major market, is projected to be about $196m. Paying KAT about 31.5% of the salary cap seems ok.

Sure. Salaries look huge, but that’s because the salary cap is rising at a huge rate year over year too due to cap smoothing.

[BadWolf]

Ant, Wiseman and Hayes and (mcDaniels iirc) are all from the same draft . If Wiseman and Hayes develop they'd get a substantial raise same year as Ants's max kicks in. Can TWolves pay them all?

[theBigLip]

I understand your position from a fit/salary perspective, but I think you can trade KAT and get even more back in another trade. I'm also not hearing KAT is available for the MIN camp, so I wonder if he really is available.

Totally disagree with that. These contracts become toxic. You can’t flip Gorbert. Simmons is stuck on the Nets. Westbrook was a fiasco.

It's a shooter's league. None of those guys can. Whereas KAT is possibly the best shooter in the league at the 5.

Valid point but Levine is a challenge to move. Even Lowery or DDR. Duncan Robinson. My point is once you start paying max or near max money, everything better go right otherwise you’re stuck. No point in the Pistons taking that risk this early in their rebuild. And KATs skills don’t seem to translate into wins/playoff runs. Sort of like Dame, Beal, etc

[theBigLip]

Totally disagree with that. These contracts become toxic. You can’t flip Gorbert. Simmons is stuck on the Nets. Westbrook was a fiasco.

It's a shooter's league. None of those guys can. Whereas KAT is possibly the best shooter in the league at the 5.

Valid point but Levine is a challenge to move. Even Lowery or DDR. Duncan Robinson. My point is once you start paying max or near max money, everything better go right otherwise you’re stuck. No point in the Pistons taking that risk this early in their rebuild. And KATs skills don’t seem to translate into wins/playoff runs. Sort of like Dame, Beal, etc

And back to original point, it is far from a guarantee that if it didn’t work out, KAT could be flipped for even more assets.

[gambitx777]

I don't think it's terrible , maybe a bit light pick wise but the pistons picks are tied up. I had a good laugh at the way you worded the original post lol. But bojan is good they need to flush that team out. It's not a terrible trade. Kat needs to go imo.

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[jscott]

Wiseman was traded less than 6 months ago for a handful of second round picks. No one in the league sees him as a “potential franchise player”

I certainly don’t see him as that but he is all of 22 years old. Players don’t hit their prime until 25-29 range. He’s still got a few more years to get to “starter” level.

Yeah, were not talking starter though. OP tried to sell these guys as “potential franchise talent” which is a **** joke.

[tmorgan]

I get that people don’t like Towns - he’s hard to like sometimes with his whining about fouls, and weirdo comments he makes. I get that people want to make him personally responsible for MIN’s lack of team success, despite some awful teams and constant turnover. And I get that people don’t watch Minnesota. Over the last ten years, they’ve given fans very little reason to watch.

But Towns also has to be one of the players that people just invent the most crap about, to create reasons to justify their emotions.

I look at all the garbage people accept from stars they like. Towns has never been in trouble with the law. He doesn’t wave guns around, go to strip clubs, and he’s active in the community. Everyone says that he is kind and generous teammates, staff, the media .. everybody. He wants to play .. his first three seasons he played all 82 games. He’s loyal. How many NBA stars HAVEN’T forced their way to another team in trade or free agency? And probably all of them were in better situations than Minnesota. In fact, even when Jimmy was trashing him everywhere in the media, loyal Towns still came out to reporters and gave the company line. On court, his production is great - he can be unguardable offensively. He doesn’t “suck on defense” - he’s improved greatly in the last 2.5 years. His playoff performance is better than people think, though he gets blamed for every loss, and gets no credit for any win. This isn’t the standard people hold other NBA stars to.

At worst, Towns is overly sensitive about criticism, and he gets a ton of it. Some of it is unfair, or even completely made up. He listens to it too much and over-reacts, on and off the floor. He wants to be liked, and he wants to be respected. MIN needs to win more for that to happen, but Towns has always been a high character guy.

Really good post. A reminder that betas can be great players, they just need someone to lead vocally and keep them focused on what matters.

I’d really enjoy KAT on the Pistons. We have the alpha personality he needs. But this price isn’t reasonable for Minnesota.

The problem is, we don’t have pieces Minny needs besides maybe Bojan. Duren and Gobert wouldn’t work. Ivey and Ant wouldn’t work. Cade would work… but if we trade Cade for KAT I’d be very upset… and Cade is that alpha KAT needs anyway!

[theBigLip]

Wiseman was traded less than 6 months ago for a handful of second round picks. No one in the league sees him as a “potential franchise player”

I certainly don’t see him as that but he is all of 22 years old. Players don’t hit their prime until 25-29 range. He’s still got a few more years to get to “starter” level.

Yeah, were not talking starter though. OP tried to sell these guys as “potential franchise talent” which is a **** joke.

Agreed that franchise talent is out of the question. He could become a starter if he works on it.