KD to the Spurs

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Re: KD to the Spurs 

Post#21 » by ReggiesKnicks » Wed May 28, 2025 6:28 pm

BlazersBroncos wrote:
Bornstellar wrote:
ReggiesKnicks wrote:
So are Josh Okogie, Matisse Thybulle, Kris Dunn and Jaylen Clark.

None of those players are as good as Sochan. Jeremy's shot is still a work in progress but he is a good rebounder and a solid opportunistic scorer. And again he barely turned 22 recently. Okogie is 26. Dunn is 31. Thybulle is 28. Those are all finished products. Including Clark, a rookie who has only played 40 games and barely saw the court is an odd choice. But in any event none of those players are comparable. Nice try though. He doesn't have negative value regardless of your opinion


Advanced stats do not show Sochan as a better defender than Okogie, MT, Dunn or even Clark.

Sochan has never posted better than 117DRtg or -0.4 DBPM.

Thybulle for example has a career average DRtg of 109 and a career average DBPM of a whopping +3.4 with highs of a whopping of 103 and +5.1.

Not saying Sochan doesnt have more value, but he is not a great defender (yet) by all advanced metrics.


Thybulle also made All-Defensive team from the bench. He was that good.
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Re: KD to the Spurs 

Post#22 » by Texas Chuck » Wed May 28, 2025 6:29 pm

There is a tendency to see an athletic guy with size and no offense getting minutes on a bad team and concluding well he must play because he's a great defender. He played because it cost the Spurs absolutely nothing to play him. I mean they experimented with him at PG because they saw losing games as just fine.

Spurs should be past that now. Now its time to win. And I suspect several of these players whose metrics are all bad but that Spurs fans defend as positive value will see their roles greatly reduced--and that's if they remain on the roster.

Sochan just isn't a positive player. And he's only got the one rookie year left. Which team is dying to get this guy?
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Re: KD to the Spurs 

Post#23 » by Blonde » Wed May 28, 2025 9:02 pm

Hard to get excited, as a Suns fan, over a package without a quality starter, no high end picks, no over abundance of picks, and no high upside prospect. Maybe that’s just where KD’s value is at but I’d decline the Spurs offer if they can’t meet any of the above demands.
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Re: KD to the Spurs 

Post#24 » by One_and_Done » Wed May 28, 2025 9:31 pm

-Luke- wrote:I'm sure you all saw the Shams news that there was mutual interest between KD and the Spurs during last trade deadline, and that there could still be interest this summer.

Spurs get: Kevin Durant

Suns get: Harrison Barnes, Keldon Johnson, #14, 2026 Spurs first, 2029 swap

Why for Spurs?
- They get KD, whom they apparently want
- They keep all their major assets (#2, Castle, Sochan, even Vassell)

Why for Suns?
- Barnes is an expiring contract, plus a solid vet for one season
- K. Johnson has two years remaining (17.5 mil)
- That gives the Suns tons of cap space in the summer of 2027, when Beal is also off the books
- They get two firsts for a guy that turns 37 before the start of the season and has one year left on his contract

The 2029 swap is a bit of a fake one, because the Spurs will likely be very good then. It's for Ishbia to tell the fanbase that they got three firsts for KD.

Huge overpay for a 37 yr old.
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Re: KD to the Spurs 

Post#25 » by One_and_Done » Wed May 28, 2025 9:46 pm

Texas Chuck wrote:There is a tendency to see an athletic guy with size and no offense getting minutes on a bad team and concluding well he must play because he's a great defender. He played because it cost the Spurs absolutely nothing to play him. I mean they experimented with him at PG because they saw losing games as just fine.

Spurs should be past that now. Now its time to win. And I suspect several of these players whose metrics are all bad but that Spurs fans defend as positive value will see their roles greatly reduced--and that's if they remain on the roster.

Sochan just isn't a positive player. And he's only got the one rookie year left. Which team is dying to get this guy?

I think rational fans of teams understand that when you have a young player who isn’t proven yet, like Sochan, that the player may not work out. The thing is, it’s a low cost gamble to hang on to him. If you hold onto him and he fails, you didn’t lose much, and if he turns the corner then you’re golden. In the case of Sochan, the Spurs have invested time and money into him, and he’s shown flashes. If he doesn’t develop a passable jump shot he’s going to be limited, but that doesn’t seem like a lost cause.

With all that in mind, it doesn’t make a lot of sense to trade him when the other team is treating him like a ‘throw in’. If the other team treats him as having no real value, then why move him? He’s not bringing back any value, and he still might work out. That’s the problem with these trades. It’s not that fans of the team with the young player expect that other teams should place the same value on the guy that they do, it’s that it doesn’t make sense for them to move him if he’s being given no value. Move something that actually has no real value instead.

FYI, I think Sochan has shown a lot of positive signs. He opened the season very well last year, then got hurt. When he came back, his role wasn’t consistent, but he showed flashes. His shooting still isn’t there, but you could definitely see it developing into a passable shot. The optimistic case is he becomes a Draymond/A.Gordon type. That may not happen, but it doesn’t make a lot of sense to just punt on it for no real benefit. Also, while I don’t think the Spurs care about this, a lot of front offices don’t like the optics of these moves, so there’s another reason they aren’t likely to move players like this. Once it looks hopeless, like with Wiseman and Kuminga, you absolutely should move them before it’s too late… but Sochan is in his 3rd year now, and has shown a lot more than either of those guys. It’s too early to be punting, especially when the trade in question assigns him no value.
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Re: KD to the Spurs 

Post#26 » by Bornstellar » Wed May 28, 2025 10:50 pm

ReggiesKnicks wrote:
Bornstellar wrote:
ReggiesKnicks wrote:
The difference isn't much.



All you said was "He is one of the better 1 on 1 defenders in the NBA". That's it. I simply responded to what you said since I can't read your mind, unfortunately. I provided a list of players who don't see play or hold little value yet are comparable in that they are "some of the best 1 on 1 defenders in the NBA".

Jarred Vanderbilt is and has been better than Sochan. Probably the best comparison given the size. He is signed for a contract < MLE.

I also said he was barely 22 and still on a rookie scale deal in response to you claiming he has negative value. He has plenty of room to improve and is not a finished product yet. You are free to believe whatever you want but I'm free to point out that your opinion that he has negative value is wrong. I assume you think Vando also has negative value?


Vando is a negative value on his contract, yes. He was good in 2022, but what ends up happening with players like Vanerbilt (and Sochan) is they can't stay on the floor in the postseason.

For the record, Vanderbilt was much better than Sochan in 2022 and still held minimal value around the league.

Vanderbilt 2021 and 2022 Seasons: 11.5% OREB, 17.7% TREB, 2.6% STL, 2.8% BLK
Sochan 2025 season: 10.0% OREB, 13.8% TREB, 1.6% STL, 1.8% BLK

At the end of the day, this archetype isn't a sought-after archetype. No team values these players highly because they are incredibly difficult to build around, and in the postseason, they create a true chink-in-the-armor for any postseason offense.

I get you love the kid, all fans should love their prospects. But sometimes you need to step back and view these players and their archetypes, compare them to others around the league, and see what value that holds. Maybe Sochan improves in leaps and bounds, shows more in the future than he ever has currently. It's possible, but incredibly unlikely. The most likely scenario is that he is a less-disruptive, more durable Jared Vanderbilt. That's just not a sought-after asset.

I'm just being realistic here. I have nothing personal against players in the NBA, and I certainly don't have anything to gain by expressing my viewpoint of "one of the best 1 on 1 defenders in the NBA". Lots of the best 1 on 1 defenders in the NBA see limited minutes, like Jaylen Clark. The fact you pointed out his games and minutes to me is actually not the argument you think it is.

Again all I said was that he is not a negative value player. I'm not arguing about his impact metrics. I'm talking strictly perceived value wise. Negative value to me means you need to attach assets to move him. I am by no means saying Sochan is going to be the next Draymond but I'm just saying he is not a negative value player and I doubt the rest of the league views him that way. Plenty of teams would take him if he was available
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Re: KD to the Spurs 

Post#27 » by Chinook » Wed May 28, 2025 11:06 pm

Defensive impact really isn't something you can go to BBRef and determine. Sochan has a great defensive EPM and average offensive EPM, grading out to be a solidly good player over all. Anyone who actually watched him play last year knows he made strides in getting his own shots and held the fort better than anyone else on the perimeter defensively. If teams don't want him, then that's great. It means a cheaper second contract.

Personally not liking Sochan based on what you've seen is fine. Everyone has an opinion. Thinking you have a more informed or more objective opinion about Sochan than Spurs fans because he doesn't play for your team is less fine.
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Re: KD to the Spurs 

Post#28 » by DirtyDez » Thu May 29, 2025 3:10 am

One_and_Done wrote:
-Luke- wrote:I'm sure you all saw the Shams news that there was mutual interest between KD and the Spurs during last trade deadline, and that there could still be interest this summer.

Spurs get: Kevin Durant

Suns get: Harrison Barnes, Keldon Johnson, #14, 2026 Spurs first, 2029 swap

Why for Spurs?
- They get KD, whom they apparently want
- They keep all their major assets (#2, Castle, Sochan, even Vassell)

Why for Suns?
- Barnes is an expiring contract, plus a solid vet for one season
- K. Johnson has two years remaining (17.5 mil)
- That gives the Suns tons of cap space in the summer of 2027, when Beal is also off the books
- They get two firsts for a guy that turns 37 before the start of the season and has one year left on his contract

The 2029 swap is a bit of a fake one, because the Spurs will likely be very good then. It's for Ishbia to tell the fanbase that they got three firsts for KD.

Huge overpay for a 37 yr old.


That’s not a huge overpay to create the best frontcourt in the league lol.
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Re: KD to the Spurs 

Post#29 » by One_and_Done » Thu May 29, 2025 3:31 am

DirtyDez wrote:
One_and_Done wrote:
-Luke- wrote:I'm sure you all saw the Shams news that there was mutual interest between KD and the Spurs during last trade deadline, and that there could still be interest this summer.

Spurs get: Kevin Durant

Suns get: Harrison Barnes, Keldon Johnson, #14, 2026 Spurs first, 2029 swap

Why for Spurs?
- They get KD, whom they apparently want
- They keep all their major assets (#2, Castle, Sochan, even Vassell)

Why for Suns?
- Barnes is an expiring contract, plus a solid vet for one season
- K. Johnson has two years remaining (17.5 mil)
- That gives the Suns tons of cap space in the summer of 2027, when Beal is also off the books
- They get two firsts for a guy that turns 37 before the start of the season and has one year left on his contract

The 2029 swap is a bit of a fake one, because the Spurs will likely be very good then. It's for Ishbia to tell the fanbase that they got three firsts for KD.

Huge overpay for a 37 yr old.


That’s not a huge overpay to create the best frontcourt in the league lol.

If he was 30 sure. Not a chance at 37.

I think you have to remember that the Suns aren't moving KD because they want to.
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Re: KD to the Spurs 

Post#30 » by Nyce_1 » Thu May 29, 2025 2:53 pm

Could Orlando get included to receive Vassell and send some stuff to Phx? Combo of serviceable big, '26 Suns pick swap, another 2025 first, and salary filler (some expiring) could be utilized.
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Re: KD to the Spurs 

Post#31 » by Saberestar » Thu May 29, 2025 4:12 pm

This trade is terrible for the Suns. The centerpiece of the trade is...Keldon Jhonson? Lol. Not happening but I understand that Spurs fans want to believe it.

Well, we just need to wait and see how valuable will be KD this summer. I think too many people around here are gonna be surprised about it.
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Re: KD to the Spurs 

Post#32 » by ReggiesKnicks » Thu May 29, 2025 4:12 pm

Saberestar wrote:This trade is terrible for the Suns. The centerpiece of the trade is...Keldon Jhonson? Lol. Not happening but I understand that Spurs fans wants to believe it.

Well, we just need to wait and see how valuable will be KD this summer. I think too many people around here are gonna be surprised about it.


Who are players you expect or would want as the centerpiece?
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Re: KD to the Spurs 

Post#33 » by Saberestar » Thu May 29, 2025 5:53 pm

ReggiesKnicks wrote:
Saberestar wrote:This trade is terrible for the Suns. The centerpiece of the trade is...Keldon Jhonson? Lol. Not happening but I understand that Spurs fans wants to believe it.

Well, we just need to wait and see how valuable will be KD this summer. I think too many people around here are gonna be surprised about it.


Who are players you expect or would want as the centerpiece?

If the Spurs wants KD they have to give up valuable assets for him.

I understand that they will not want to give up any of Wemby, Fox, Castle and #2.

OK, you aren't giving us any of your 4 best players (talking about value/potential) so you need to give us future unprotected picks and one starter caliber player (Vassell).

I expect the Spurs to offer a package around Vassell, Barnes, #14 and 3 future unprotected picks.

That way the Spus would retain their four most valuable pieces + Sochan (defense) + Keldon (offense) + Champagnie (hustle) and they would retain multiple FRPs yet.

I would love that package? No, because I would prefer to get a more impactful player in the deal and those future picks all can be in the twenties...but I would be OK with it if there isn't better offers out there.
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Re: KD to the Spurs 

Post#34 » by Texas Chuck » Thu May 29, 2025 6:01 pm

You aren't getting 3 future unprotected firsts for one year of KD. Temper expectations mate.
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Re: KD to the Spurs 

Post#35 » by ReggiesKnicks » Thu May 29, 2025 6:04 pm

Saberestar wrote:
ReggiesKnicks wrote:
Saberestar wrote:This trade is terrible for the Suns. The centerpiece of the trade is...Keldon Jhonson? Lol. Not happening but I understand that Spurs fans wants to believe it.

Well, we just need to wait and see how valuable will be KD this summer. I think too many people around here are gonna be surprised about it.


Who are players you expect or would want as the centerpiece?

If the Spurs wants KD they have to give up valuable assets for him.

I understand that they will not want to give up any of Wemby, Fox, Castle and #2.

OK, you aren't giving us any of your 4 best players (talking about value/potential) so you need to give us future unprotected picks and one starter caliber player (Vassell).

I expect the Spurs to offer a package around Vassell, Barnes, #14 and 3 future unprotected picks.

That way the Spus would retain their four most valuable pieces + Sochan (defense) + Keldon (offense) + Champagnie (hustle) and they would retain multiple FRPs yet.

I would love that package? No, because I would prefer to get a more impactful player in the deal and those future picks all can be in the twenties...but I would be OK with it if there isn't better offers out there.


Nobody is offering 3 unprotected 1st for KD, that's wild man.
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Re: KD to the Spurs 

Post#36 » by Saberestar » Thu May 29, 2025 6:09 pm

Texas Chuck wrote:You aren't getting 3 future unprotected firsts for one year of KD. Temper expectations mate.

How do you know it?

It's not just one year. He would agree to extend with them before the start of the season and they will have him for three years. They can't get him otherwise.
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Re: KD to the Spurs 

Post#37 » by Blame Rasho » Thu May 29, 2025 6:09 pm

Texas Chuck wrote:You aren't getting 3 future unprotected firsts for one year of KD. Temper expectations mate.


Pretty much… I am also of the opinion that he will just worse and be injury prone.

In today’s nba, first rounders are worth more especially when teams are hard capped
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Re: KD to the Spurs 

Post#38 » by BlazersBroncos » Thu May 29, 2025 6:10 pm

I expect the Spurs to offer a package around Vassell, Barnes, #14 and 3 future unprotected picks.


This is unhinged.

Vassell, Barnes and 14 is plenty for a 37 year old KD with a single year left on his deal and coming off his least impactful season per advanced stats since his age 19 rookie year.
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Re: KD to the Spurs 

Post#39 » by Blame Rasho » Thu May 29, 2025 6:10 pm

Saberestar wrote:
Texas Chuck wrote:You aren't getting 3 future unprotected firsts for one year of KD. Temper expectations mate.

How do you know it?

It's not just one year. He would agree to extend with them before the start of the season and they will have him for three years. They can't get him otherwise.


Would you trade 3 first round picks for him and filler ? Exactly…
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Re: KD to the Spurs 

Post#40 » by Texas Chuck » Thu May 29, 2025 6:28 pm

Saberestar wrote:
Texas Chuck wrote:You aren't getting 3 future unprotected firsts for one year of KD. Temper expectations mate.

How do you know it?

It's not just one year. He would agree to extend with them before the start of the season and they will have him for three years. They can't get him otherwise.


Common sense? He just doesn't hold that kind of value. What makes you think he does?
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