ESPN Insider Rumor: CLE-MEM

[ecuhus1981]

This is not a compettive offer. MEM has surely received a 1/2 dozen better offers, with straight expirings instead of 2-year deals, and better youth than Simmons and Jones.

[kiwibrindle]

I'd still consider the original trade. Its not a trade breaker, but I hope Ferry doesn't give up Clev's pick. Clev did not have a first rounder last year and it hurt the bench during the recent rash of injuries. Picks are a waste to many teams in the league but good scouts can make picks huge. Example Chicago.

Their picks have been good for years. Too bad they have no star.

[shrink]

I'm curious why you think the Cavs are so willing to take on extra salary, since they will be paying double for it over the lux? I don't think using two-year deals for three-year deals of Cardonal and Miller is unheard of, since the Cavs may be under the lux in year three, but using Ira Newble costs them double.

This is a deal that could really use a third team, like ORL or MIN, who might have expirings. MEM doesn't really want two-year deals for non-productive players, so they are going to squeeze the Cavs for all the extra talent they can get for having to pay all that money next year.

If the Cavs sent Marshall and Cedric Simmons to ORL for non-productive expirings and sent those to MEM instead, the Grizz front office would probably be happier, if the Gasol trade showed us anything, and might allow the Cavs to save their pick.

[Kosar86]

This is not a compettive offer. MEM has surely received a 1/2 dozen better offers, with straight expirings instead of 2-year deals, and better youth than Simmons and Jones.

and surely if given a few days they could have gotten more than an expiring for pau gasol.

They are getting 6-7 more in cap room next year, and another 7-10 million the year after, for a good but not great SG and the ability to dump one of the worst contracts in the nba.

[kiwibrindle]

Kos: That's not so easy to do or we would have done it already. Expirings have great value these days.

Shrink: If LBJ is really upset with the front office; then that's all the reason I need to pay that tax.

[grizzleGM]

I think the Grizz will try to squeeze Pavlovic and an 08 1st out of the deal if they have to take on contracts for two years.

I think MMiller will end up in Cleveland or Orlando tomorrow.

[shakeandbake]

Memphis's main reason in trading Gasol was to get expirings and draft picks. Mission accomplished (which just happens to be the same deal that New Jersey and Sacramento got for Kidd and Bibby respectively). The Miller deal, if one is made will be to obtain more draft picks, not just expiring contracts. Thus, I think Memphis will play the teams interested in Miller off one another and get two 1sts for Miller or one 1st and a good prospect. Miami has Cook and a pick. For Cleveland, I think it will take this years and a future 1st to get the deal done. Same for Orlando. Denver is another option. I guess we will find out by tomorrow.

[kidd0701]

The Nets did not get expirings for Kidd... they got a lot more then that... They got Devin Harris who is potentially a future star.

[grizzleGM]

Memphis's main reason in trading Gasol was to get expirings and draft picks. Mission accomplished (which just happens to be the same deal that New Jersey and Sacramento got for Kidd and Bibby respectively). The Miller deal, if one is made will be to obtain more draft picks, not just expiring contracts. Thus, I think Memphis will play the teams interested in Miller off one another and get two 1sts for Miller or one 1st and a good prospect. Miami has Cook and a pick. For Cleveland, I think it will take this years and a future 1st to get the deal done. Same for Orlando. Denver is another option. I guess we will find out by tomorrow.

Miami is not really in the running, their pick would be too far in the future for the deal to be worth it.

[waverider]

Memphis's main reason in trading Gasol was to get expirings and draft picks. Mission accomplished (which just happens to be the same deal that New Jersey and Sacramento got for Kidd and Bibby respectively). The Miller deal, if one is made will be to obtain more draft picks, not just expiring contracts. Thus, I think Memphis will play the teams interested in Miller off one another and get two 1sts for Miller or one 1st and a good prospect. Miami has Cook and a pick. For Cleveland, I think it will take this years and a future 1st to get the deal done. Same for Orlando. Denver is another option. I guess we will find out by tomorrow.

Agree, expirings for THIS YEAR aren't as important for MEM as we must remember that there is a MINIMUM SALARY CAP as well - about 41.7 mil this yr. So it does not make sense for MEM to take just crap expirings this yr for Miller and maybe Cardinal - they should look for picks and young players and a large expiring for the folowing year.

For example, POR could offer Lafrentz (11 mil following summer) and #1 pick and perhaps Frye or Webs fro Cardinal/Lowry/Miller. That IMO is the way MEM should go with whomever they trade with.

[shakeandbake]

The Nets did not get expirings for Kidd... they got a lot more then that... They got Devin Harris who is potentially a future star.

And the Grizz also got Critt, who could also potentially be a star.

[grizzleGM]

But taking 'crap expirings' will allow Memphis to force a lot of teams to give max deals (or really big $$$) to their RFAs. Memphis could force ATL, CHI, and GS to pay lux tax to keep their players, or force Charlotte and Philly out of the FA market by forcing them ever closer to the cap.

Josh Smith (ATL)
Emeka Okafor (CLT)
Luol Deng (CHI)
Ben Gordon (CHI)
Monta Ellis (GS)
Andre Iguodala (PHI)

The '09 class of FAs is not very good, because the likes of Chris Paul, Deron Williams, and Bynum will be locked up this summer for long term max deals.

[shrink]

Agree, expirings for THIS YEAR aren't as important for MEM as we must remember that there is a MINIMUM SALARY CAP as well - about 41.7 mil this yr.

Interesting point. I'd wonder though whether the salary cap is in effect during the summer? The Grizzlies might want to get their cap low, and then bid on several free agents this year (and be forced to get at least one to make salary minimums in the fall?). In Summer 2009, there are going to be several teams who targetted that year for multiple expiring deals, and so MEM would have a lot of teams to be bidding against.

[jefe]

-= original quote snipped =-



Agree, expirings for THIS YEAR aren't as important for MEM as we must remember that there is a MINIMUM SALARY CAP as well - about 41.7 mil this yr. So it does not make sense for MEM to take just crap expirings this yr for Miller and maybe Cardinal - they should look for picks and young players and a large expiring for the folowing year.

For example, POR could offer Lafrentz (11 mil following summer) and #1 pick and perhaps Frye or Webs fro Cardinal/Lowry/Miller. That IMO is the way MEM should go with whomever they trade with.

Already rebutted this point on the Grizz board, but I'll do it here again - because it makes no sense. What is the point in delaying the benefit of trading Miller by a year? Wouldn't you rather allocate 08-09 cap $$$ to a productive free agent (acquired this summer via a contract that expires this summer) rather than Raef? Well, maybe you wouldn't because you have some snake oil to sell here - but I think most unbiased people would.

IMO, the only way your point makes any logical sense is if you're saying the Grizz have no intention to spend any of the 08-09 cap $$$ they'll have on free agents this summer - in which case they would need to sink some $$$ into an expiring for next year in order to avoid falling below the minimum salary.

[waverider]

But taking 'crap expirings' will allow Memphis to force a lot of teams to give max deals (or really big $$$) to their RFAs. Memphis could force ATL, CHI, and GS to pay lux tax to keep their players, or force Charlotte and Philly out of the FA market by forcing them ever closer to the cap.

Josh Smith (ATL)
Emeka Okafor (CLT)
Luol Deng (CHI)
Ben Gordon (CHI)
Monta Ellis (GS)
Andre Iguodala (PHI)

The '09 class of FAs is not very good, because the likes of Chris Paul, Deron Williams, and Bynum will be locked up this summer for long term max deals.

HUH? Given everything MEM has done and the big time Financial instability and trying to sell the team, do you really think that MEM is going to go after a BIG cost FA? If you are you are dreaming IMO. Their muck better and likely strategy is to keep the salary at about 42 mil next yr, continue to stockpile talented youth and picks, and have a a good chip like a LaFrentz expiring next summer. Until they settle their Financial/ownership situation that is very likely the way it goes.

[waverider]

"Already rebutted this point on the Grizz board, but I'll do it here again - because it makes no sense. What is the point in delaying the benefit of trading Miller by a year? Wouldn't you rather allocate 08-09 cap $$$ to a productive free agent (acquired this summer via a contract that expires this summer) rather than Raef? Well, maybe you wouldn't because you have some snake oil to sell here - but I think most unbiased people would"

I would agree EXCEPT we have the huge question of possibly trying to sell the team still very much with us. My take is that signing that likely expensive and multi-year FA vs Raef's ONE remaining yr adds a long term cost/committment which for now it appears ownership does not want. I think they want to keep things as short term and flexible as posisble for now, Reaf gives them another year - and perhaps during that yr a sale may get done.

[grizzleGM]

I'm not doubting that Heisley is trying to sell the team FOR A PROFIT. The man is a billionaire who is tired of losing money and having a team that has no chance of winning. He will not be able to sell this team for a profit until it is headed in the right direction. That could be done this off-season. If Memphis drafts well this off-season, and adds either Okafor or Josh Smith, the Grizz would be VERY young and very marketable to sell. Heisley is not scared to spend money as long as the prospect is there to make money. If he spends no money, then he will actually lose more money, because season ticket holders will not hang around.

LaFrentz in not worth crap next year, because there are no decent young FAs to spend the money on in 09, and Gay will command max or near max money in 2010.

[waverider]

I'm not doubting that Heisley is trying to sell the team FOR A PROFIT. The man is a billionaire who is tired of losing money and having a team that has no chance of winning. He will not be able to sell this team for a profit until it is headed in the right direction. That could be done this off-season. If Memphis drafts well this off-season, and adds either Okafor or Josh Smith, the Grizz would be VERY young and very marketable to sell. Heisley is not scared to spend money as long as the prospect is there to make money. If he spends no money, then he will actually lose more money, because season ticket holders will not hang around.

LaFrentz in not worth crap next year, because there are no decent young FAs to spend the money on in 09, and Gay will command max or near max money in 2010.

Come on now be realistic. Do you not think the Hawks or Char would not match what MEM would offer those FA's? I seriously doubt that MEM is going to overpay BIG $$$ for a FA at this juncture! And neither the Hawks nor Char are going to let their KEY players go for nothing - you need to rethink your outlook and your arguments keep failing the test of logic.

[Heart-of-RnR]

This is not a compettive offer. MEM has surely received a 1/2 dozen better offers, with straight expirings instead of 2-year deals, and better youth than Simmons and Jones.

This is a competitive deal because, as far as I know, the Cavs are the only team offering to take back Brian Cardinal in the deal. Could other teams offer straight expirings? Yes, but no team can send enough expirings to get both Miller and Cardinal. Seattle could offer Kurt Thomas and the Warriors could use their trade exception, but I'm pretty sure any other team would have to send a multi-year contract if they wanted to include Brian Cardinal in the deal.

This deal also works out nicely because it's a 4-for-3. Neither team has to waive any players before or after the trade, though that's probably not a big concern for Memphis.

I agree that Memphis will probably try to squeeze the most they can out of this deal. Cleveland will send at least one future first round pick, but I doubt it's their 2008 pick. The Cavs don't have a 2nd rounder this year (thanks Paxon, you idiot) and they are not about to shut themselves completely out of the draft for the 2nd year in a row. The Cavs will offer their 2009 pick to start and may be willing to throw in their 2011 pick, especially if they can get a future 2nd rounder in return.

I'd be surprised if Memphis wanted Pavlovic, though, since he just signed a 3-year contract. I'm sure that if Varejao was tradeable, they'd want him.

If Memphis was focused slightly more on talent, they would ask for Gooden instead of Marshall, but Cleveland would turn that down in a heartbeat.

[grizzleGM]

-= original quote snipped =-



Come on now be realistic. Do you not think the Hawks or Char would not match what MEM would offer those FA's? I seriously doubt that MEM is going to overpay BIG $$$ for a FA at this juncture! And neither the Hawks nor Char are going to let their KEY players go for nothing - you need to rethink your outlook and your arguments keep failing the test of logic.

No... you are missing my point from an earlier post. I think ATL and Charlotte would probably both match a max offer for those two players, but there is some underlying reason that they didn't get deals done last summer to lock up those players early. If they both match, then the Grizz have taken two big players(teams) in the FA market out of the game. I was not trying to insinuate that the Grizz could DEFINITELY sign one of these guys, but they have to try to make a move this off-season and not wait until the '09 off-season.

The only issue with logic on here is that people seem to think that Heisley is getting rid of all the big contracts in order to sell the team. He is still asking TOP DOLLAR for the team. No one is going to step up and pay $365M for a team that has one possible future star. The future has to look bright for someone to pay above market price, which is what that price is currently. I agree with him that he is tired of losing money each year with talent that is not going to be able to compete. The only option then is to tear the team down and start over with young talent. If the team can get a young star by outbidding another owner, then Heisley has shown numerous times he is willing to spend the money.