Realgm's Top 25 most valuable players

[JES12]

By that argument, Lebron James does not have as much value as Tony Parker. Chris Paul does not have as much value as either of them.

I guess we will have to agree to disagree.

And the whole Bowen argument imakes no sense in this discussion. Noone is in fear that Bowen is going to break their ankles when their defensive assignment is Bowen...that's why they put the weakest defender on him.

I also noticed you skipped over the part of Parker failing to beat Harris the only thime they played whenit mattered. (my #2 point). Parker never has beat Harris on his way to the finals. Harris DID beat Parker.

[loserX]

By that argument, Lebron James does not have as much value as Tony Parker.

LeBron James is not a 26-year-old point guard, he is one of the league's best players. I'm only suggesting that Parker's accomplishments are enough to tip the scales (for me) against a comparable player in Harris...neither one is comparable to LeBron

Being a Finals MVP is a lot better than not being one...and IMHO Harris doesn't have enough advantage in other areas over Parker to offset that. (LeBron certainly does.) Even if Harris is a better all-around player than Parker, I don't see him as having more value at this point.

I guess we will have to agree to disagree.

[JES12]

Okay...Parker is so much better than Harris. Lets assume EVERYONE agreed with that. Your argument of the "MVP" is null when Harris beat Parker on his trip to the finals and Parker never has been able to beat Harris on his trip to the finals. I'm just saying, what you are using as a measuring stick, is not a valid measuring stick. In fact, it should be tipped the other way based on that.

This is analogous to Dwayne Wade having more value than Lebron James. Wade has never beat James in the playoffs, but he has a MVP award. Is Wade > James?

[loserX]

Okay...Parker is so much better than Harris. Lets assume EVERYONE agreed with that. Your argument of the "MVP" is null when Harris beat Parker on his trip to the finals and Parker never has been able to beat Harris on his trip to the finals. I'm just saying, what you are using as a measuring stick, is not a valid measuring stick. In fact, it should be tipped the other way based on that.

Completely disagree. In head-to-head matchups, Deron Williams cleans Chris Paul's clock nearly every time. But there is no question about who has more trade value, and I'm perfectly comfortable with that as a Jazz fan. Limited samples of head-to-head play are not THAT relevant.

Being a Finals MVP is worth a lot more than not being one. Nobody is going to reverse that on the basis that Harris beat Parker once.

[JES12]

Okay....you might as well switch Wade's and James' rank around. Wade clearly has a Final's MVP. Though Wade has never actually beat James in the playoffs, he is the clear cut winner because they play the same position, close to the same age and has a MVP award whereas Lebron has neither Finals or season MVP award.

[loserX]

Okay....you might as well switch Wade's and Jame's rank around. Wade clearly has a Final's MVP. Though Wade has never actually beat James in the playoffs, he is the clear cut winner because they play the same position and has a MVP award. Hell, james never even had a Season MVP award. How the hell can he be #1?

Again, I think Parker and Harris are comparable players. Harris may have a talent edge, but Parker has played a big part in at least one championship. Harris has not.

Wade and LeBron are not comparable players, because I'm not sure there is a comparable player to LeBron.

I am comparing apples with apples...you are comparing apples with wolverines. I think Parker's MVP is enough to elevate him past a COMPARABLE player in Harris. I do not think Wade's MVP is enough to elevate him past a SUPERIOR player in LeBron.

[JES12]

I am comparing apples with apples...you are comparing apples with wolverines.

You got me there....you win!

Still Laughing even though Wade has 1 more PPG 1.5 more APG, .5 more SPG, 1 more BPG while Lebtron has 2 more RPG with same %'s across the board. That wolverine is slicing up that apple this year.

And I hate saying that because I can't stand Wade and I love James.

One last note...if they are "comparable"...apples to apples...head to head does matter where you Williams-Paul argument is more tlike the James-Wade argument.

As if this thread means anything...Kikki just said harris is untouchable.

[dockingsched]

As if this thread means anything...Kikki just said harris is untouchable.

eh, i think its safe to say every player in the top 25 is not being shopped.

[tecumseh18]

I am not a Raps homer, and for the longest time I thought Devon Williams > Chris Paul until it became obvious otherwise, but I would not put him ahead of Bosh right now. Never trade big for small (unless the small is Chris Paul).

[Snakebites]

i think youth was overrated just a tad. i'd probably take rose, oden, roy, jefferson and stick them all behind dirk, bumping everyone else up.

agree...i think jefferson is really overrated...hes no mvp...he takes 18.5 shots a game(5th most, most by an interior player) for 22 points thats crap...overrated on D...Amare is way too high...on that team Nash is the mvp..the team and Amare look bad w/o him...Bynum but no gasol...thats fishy to me....Nash not being on the list at all is a joke...as is having Rose, Oden, Durrant on the list...this list is not who is good, or will be mvp worthy...its mvps now

I was under the impression that it was who had the most TRADE value, not MVP in the conventional sense.

[fivas14]

No Boozer

[dockingsched]

i nominated boozer but i think his impending opt out and free agent history worked against him. i thought those issues weren't enough to overlook his performance on the court, but the majority didn't feel the same.

[CellarDoor]

Some nice arguments coming out of this. FWIW, my opinion is that Park > Harris, but Harris is making it really, really close really fast. I'd give the slight nod to Parker, but I'm willing to have my mind changed this year yet.

The way Bosh has been playing I also think I'm ready to move him into that 5 slot (maybe a 5a 5b with Deron) ahead of Amare. I'm happy Rose is up there, but he needs to be below Duncan as a matter of respect. I'd move Duncan to 9, Rose to 10, Roy to 11, Oden to 12. Everything else I'm alright with.

[roc]

If Boozer knew the meaning of the word defense...

I personally rank Harris ahead of Parker based on his much better defense but Parker has the jewelry to back him up some plus Eva comes with him.

Hmmm, maybe Jaric should be on this list.

[KM44]

i still cannot believe that Martin was not on this list. I understand that he's been injured, but the guy is a stud. He is one of the best scorers and the most efficent scorer in the league. It doesn't make sense that he could be passed on over a guy like Durant. I mean they score the same amount, but martin is like 10% better in shooting (that was an exaggeration, please don't freak out), and he can at least play some defense. I feel a bit violated personally.

Oh, and I'm already mid post and I'm not going to go back and check, but did melo really not make this list? If he didn't that's a travesty.

[ws26]

You're right, I think that Martin had a legit case to be in the top 25, he is young and established, and on a cheap contract. Those three ingredients, along with a Reggie Miller-like three point percentage, probably should have put him on the list. However, I didn't vote for him so I can't really be too hypocritical. Also, Melo made the list, I think he was 18th. And Parker is better than Harris for the time being, but Harris is chasing him.

[dockingsched]

melo is 17. i personally would have put martin ahead of durant, but i probably have several more players ahead of both of them like biedrins and horford.

[KM44]

Ok, well I will take your simpathies, and I'm glad melo was on there. I would agree with ws26 when it comes to right now. I feel like Harris isn't consistant enough. Before you explode, I'm just saying that even on a bad day, parker could contribute somehow. I don't feel that Harris can do that quite yet. Now dcash, I appreciate the respect for martin, but biedrins!?!?! I haven't seen too much from him, but from what I've seen, he's just a tall guy with a knack for rebounding. He didn't seem like much on D, and his passing wasn't great either, but this was a very limited scouting report, so I can't fully make a decision.

As for Horford.. It's interesting, but when I looked at the two of them and thought "would I trade Martin for Horford?" I said no way in hell. Martin seems like he's a #1 guy on a good team, horford doesn't seem like he has the skills to be that guy on offense.

[dockingsched]

thats probably where our different values for martin come in. i don't really see him as a #1 guy on a good team. #2 guy for sure though.

as far as biedrins, he doesn't just look to have a knack for rebounding, he's REALLY good at it. his stats are a bit inflated but he's still super quick to the loose balls. he also has an extremely soft touch around the rim. i guess i just have a bit more value for big men.

[deviljets7]

One other note, is that I do kind of feel it's funny that it is a well known fact that PG and big men have more trade value that swingmen, but this poll is dead even.

Bigmen
1) Howard
2) Amare
3) Bosh
4) Oden
5) Duncan
6) Jefferson
7) Ming
8) Garnett
9) Nowitzki
10) Bynum

Point Guard
1) Paul
2) Williams
3) Rose
4) Parker
5) Harris

Swing
1) James
2) Bryant
3) Wade
4) Roy
5) Anthony
6) Durant
7) Pierce
8) Johnson
9) Granger
10) Smith

That is interesting. That said, after looking closer at the list, only 4 of the top 16 are swing men, a ratio that seems more in line with reality. Even though he's not you're prototypical big, I'd probably consider Smith a big man.

As for the list itself, guys who I think are a touch high:
Greg Oden (10): I know what the ceiling is on Oden, but that's a disturbing injury history. I hesitate to criticize his offensive game since he is young and coming off of a major injury, but I need to see more for him to be this much higher than Bynum (though Oden's contract is better).
Brandon Roy (12): He's a great player, but the upside isn't quite on the level to take him over some of the bigs behind him. I mean, the 3 wings above him are LBJ, Kobe and Wade.
Yao Ming (14): Just too injury prone for me to go this high on Yao. At 28 he's not exactly a kid either.

Guys who I think are too low:
Al Jefferson (13): A young (turns 24 in January) 21-10 big locked into a very reasonable contract. I'd like to see him get to the line a bit more, but he should be in the top 10 IMO.
Devin Harris (24): The whole Parker/Harris debate has been beaten to death here. Considering we're talking about trade value in this poll, I think it's important to note that Parker's remaining contract is 3 years at $37.8 million, while Harris is 5 years at $43 million. I think Harris should be higher than Parker IMO.

Guys who I would have tried to find a spot on the list for:
O.J. Mayo: I know he's "older" for a guy in his 2nd year out of HS, but is a lot more polished than Durant is/was.
Carlos Boozer: Based on pure talent/production he's a top 25 guy, but I understand leaving him off since he can opt out after the season.
Pau Gasol: His flaws are known, but we're still talking about an 18 and 9 big man on the right side of 30.