Orlando early offseason in review (HW/bondom34/dbrandon/Smitty731/HowardMass)

[HartfordWhalers]

"He [Bismack Biyombo] was our primary target in free agency," said Vogel during the introduction of Biyombo last month.

I think the point is they didn't have to trade Harris to sign him. The money from Harris was used on Green, who's actually just like Harris, only older and worse at everything.

They didn't have to trade Harris to sign Green either. You guys are missing the fact that green was a one year deal. Looking beyond this season (which Hennigan is doing) only Biyombo affects next years cap. Biyombo is taking up those 17 mill/yr that were going to Harris. They could've kept Harris, but then they don't have room for a max next year. The plan was always to have room for a max this summer and in 2017. Green doesn't affect next years cap space. Biyombo and Harris do. Green was signed give them some depth this year, and scoring off the bench. You can either say Hennigan replaced Harris with Green AND opened up room for a max next year, or he signed Biyombo. Instead you guys are reducing it to just Green replaced Harris, like we just signed Green to the same deal as Harris. That's not true at all. Biyombo's deal is much more similar to Harris'.

“And we always believed that this summer and next summer were going to be the two summers of free agency for us that we needed to focus on after developing our young guys.”- Alex Martins

Orlando won't have max cap space next year unless Ibaka walks.

[bondom34]

They didn't have to trade Harris to sign Green either. You guys are missing the fact that green was a one year deal. Looking beyond this season (which Hennigan is doing) only Biyombo affects next years cap. Biyombo is taking up those 17 mill/yr that were going to Harris. They could've kept Harris, but then they don't have room for a max next year. The plan was always to have room for a max this summer and in 2017. Green doesn't affect next years cap space. Biyombo and Harris do. Green was signed give them some depth this year, and scoring off the bench. You can either say Hennigan replaced Harris with Green AND opened up room for a max next year, or he signed Biyombo. Instead you guys are reducing it to just Green replaced Harris, like we just signed Green to the same deal as Harris. That's not true at all. Biyombo's deal is much more similar to Harris'.

“And we always believed that this summer and next summer were going to be the two summers of free agency for us that we needed to focus on after developing our young guys.”- Alex Martins

No, they didn't.

They could have just...well kept Harris, who's better than Green in the first place. Hennigan signed Biz with money he already had. He also traded Harris independently of that, and used that money on Green.

Again, they could've kept Harris, but then they lose their ability to offer a max in 2017. The plan was always to have max money in 2017. I'd definitely rather have that cap space over Tobias.

1. Ibaka would have to walk.
2. They could have...well traded Harris later and not signed Green who's a far inferior player.

[wise1-2]

I think the point is they didn't have to trade Harris to sign him. The money from Harris was used on Green, who's actually just like Harris, only older and worse at everything.

They didn't have to trade Harris to sign Green either. You guys are missing the fact that green was a one year deal. Looking beyond this season (which Hennigan is doing) only Biyombo affects next years cap. Biyombo is taking up those 17 mill/yr that were going to Harris. They could've kept Harris, but then they don't have room for a max next year. The plan was always to have room for a max this summer and in 2017. Green doesn't affect next years cap space. Biyombo and Harris do. Green was signed give them some depth this year, and scoring off the bench. You can either say Hennigan replaced Harris with Green AND opened up room for a max next year, or he signed Biyombo. Instead you guys are reducing it to just Green replaced Harris, like we just signed Green to the same deal as Harris. That's not true at all. Biyombo's deal is much more similar to Harris'.

“And we always believed that this summer and next summer were going to be the two summers of free agency for us that we needed to focus on after developing our young guys.”- Alex Martins

Orlando won't have max cap space next year unless Ibaka walks.

They will after a few necessary moves. Vucevic and Biyombo aren't both going to be on the team next year.

Watson is basically expiring. Meeks is expiring. Green is expiring. That's like 25 mill in expiring contracts. They should at least have that amount in cap space (which is still better than Harris eating up 17 mill/yr and leaving them with 8 mill for a bench player). If/when Vucevic is traded, that's possibly another 12 mill. They could also dump Augustin if needed. The flexibility is there.

[wise1-2]

No, they didn't.

They could have just...well kept Harris, who's better than Green in the first place. Hennigan signed Biz with money he already had. He also traded Harris independently of that, and used that money on Green.

Again, they could've kept Harris, but then they lose their ability to offer a max in 2017. The plan was always to have max money in 2017. I'd definitely rather have that cap space over Tobias.

1. Ibaka would have to walk.
2. They could have...well traded Harris later and not signed Green who's a far inferior player.

1. They have 25 mill in expiring contracts alone
2. They're better off with Green as a back up SF than little depth at that position. Gordon is just a 20 year old trying to play a new position full time. It's good to have a back up like Green. Its just a one year deal anyway.

[bondom34]

Again, they could've kept Harris, but then they lose their ability to offer a max in 2017. The plan was always to have max money in 2017. I'd definitely rather have that cap space over Tobias.

1. Ibaka would have to walk.
2. They could have...well traded Harris later and not signed Green who's a far inferior player.

1. They have 25 mill in expiring contracts alone
2. They're better off with Green as a back up SF than little depth at that position. Gordon is just a 20 year old trying to play a new position full time. It's good to have a back up like Green. Its just a one year deal anyway.

And Harris would have been better than Green.

[HartfordWhalers]

They didn't have to trade Harris to sign Green either. You guys are missing the fact that green was a one year deal. Looking beyond this season (which Hennigan is doing) only Biyombo affects next years cap. Biyombo is taking up those 17 mill/yr that were going to Harris. They could've kept Harris, but then they don't have room for a max next year. The plan was always to have room for a max this summer and in 2017. Green doesn't affect next years cap space. Biyombo and Harris do. Green was signed give them some depth this year, and scoring off the bench. You can either say Hennigan replaced Harris with Green AND opened up room for a max next year, or he signed Biyombo. Instead you guys are reducing it to just Green replaced Harris, like we just signed Green to the same deal as Harris. That's not true at all. Biyombo's deal is much more similar to Harris'.

“And we always believed that this summer and next summer were going to be the two summers of free agency for us that we needed to focus on after developing our young guys.”- Alex Martins

Orlando won't have max cap space next year unless Ibaka walks.

They will after a few necessary moves. Vucevic and Biyombo aren't both going to be on the team next year.

Watson is basically expiring. Meeks is expiring. Green is expiring. That's like 25 mill in expiring contracts. They should at least have that amount in cap space (which is still better than Harris eating up 17 mill/yr and leaving them with 8 mill for a bench player). If/when Vucevic is traded, that's possibly another 12 mill. They could also dump Augustin if needed. The flexibility is there.

First let me just say that: "That's like 25 mill in expiring contracts. They should at least have that amount in cap space" just isn't how the cap works. Orlando is 10m over the cap now, and Ibaka's caphold is a full 5m above his current salary, Gordon's salary goes up over 1m, etc. (And dumping Augustin alone shouldn't get it.)

Now, I really wasn't interested in re-debating the Harris trade as part of this offseason, but it seems disingenuous to say that: The Harris trade gave the Magic max cap room next year because they can always trade Vucevic and thus get max cap room next offseason. If that logic flies, couldn't you extend it and say the same thing for keeping Harris? The Magic will have max cap room in a year because they can always trade Vucevic and Harris.

I'm not so low on the Green flier because the Harris trade was a sunk cost, you cannot go back and recover it. But you also cannot use cap space from a Vucevic trade to justify it, or the Biyombo signing when there was plenty of room for that anyway.


I do think you hit on the second big question of the Orlando offseason:
1) (Starting) Point Guard production
2) Will both Vucevic and Biyombo stay.

Ibaka seems the perfect compliment to Vucevic, which would make it strange to (over?) pay for the perfect compliment and then trade Vucevic. On the other hand, signing Biyombo as your "first priority" only to trade him 6 months later is pretty unusual behavior.

And if you keep both, can you have that much cap in center and can an Ibaka-Biyombo front court play well together?

It is going to be interesting, because I think the answer to 2 is a lot less clear cut looking than 1.

[wise1-2]

Orlando won't have max cap space next year unless Ibaka walks.

They will after a few necessary moves. Vucevic and Biyombo aren't both going to be on the team next year.

Watson is basically expiring. Meeks is expiring. Green is expiring. That's like 25 mill in expiring contracts. They should at least have that amount in cap space (which is still better than Harris eating up 17 mill/yr and leaving them with 8 mill for a bench player). If/when Vucevic is traded, that's possibly another 12 mill. They could also dump Augustin if needed. The flexibility is there.

First let me just say that: "That's like 25 mill in expiring contracts. They should at least have that amount in cap space" just isn't how the cap works. Orlando is 10m over the cap now, and Ibaka's caphold is a full 5m above his current salary, Gordon's salary goes up over 1m, etc. (And dumping Augustin alone shouldn't get it.)

Now, I really wasn't interested in re-debating the Harris trade as part of this offseason, but it seems disingenuous to say that: The Harris trade gave the Magic max cap room next year because they can always trade Vucevic and thus get max cap room next offseason. If that logic flies, couldn't you extend it and say the same thing for keeping Harris? The Magic will have max cap room in a year because they can always trade Vucevic and Harris.

I'm not so low on the Green flier because the Harris trade was a sunk cost, you cannot go back and recover it. But you also cannot use cap space from a Vucevic trade to justify it, or the Biyombo signing when there was plenty of room for that anyway.


I do think you hit on the second big question of the Orlando offseason:
1) (Starting) Point Guard production
2) Will both Vucevic and Biyombo stay.

Ibaka seems the perfect compliment to Vucevic, which would make it strange to (over?) pay for the perfect compliment and then trade Vucevic. On the other hand, signing Biyombo as your "first priority" only to trade him 6 months later is pretty unusual behavior.

And if you keep both, can you have that much cap in center and can an Ibaka-Biyombo front court play well together?

It is going to be interesting, because I think the answer to 2 is a lot less clear cut looking than 1.

You forgot to mention the cap is projected to climb up to 108 mill. So if they're at 104 now, with 25 mill in expiring, and Ibaka's extra 5 mill, that'd be a total of 84 committed (including ibaka's cap hold). 108-84= 24 mill in cap space. Let's forget Vucevic and Biyombo being traded. Let's say they both remain on the team. All the Magic would have to do is trade Augustin in order to have 32 mill in cap space. They pretty much have to make a move before they sign a max player anyway. They have one too many starters as is. If they sign a max player they'll need to open up minutes for him.

If they don't feel they can attract a max FA, maybe they just keep Augustin and still use the 24 mill on a really good player. One that fits better than Harris.

[wise1-2]

1. Ibaka would have to walk.
2. They could have...well traded Harris later and not signed Green who's a far inferior player.

1. They have 25 mill in expiring contracts alone
2. They're better off with Green as a back up SF than little depth at that position. Gordon is just a 20 year old trying to play a new position full time. It's good to have a back up like Green. Its just a one year deal anyway.

And Harris would have been better than Green.

Green will play his role without complaining about minutes/touches/role IMO. Harris was unhappy being a bench player, and Gordon and Ibaka are both more productive so he wasn't going to start.

This isn't just Green vs Harris. Its Green+ capspace vs Harris.

[HartfordWhalers]

They will after a few necessary moves. Vucevic and Biyombo aren't both going to be on the team next year.

Watson is basically expiring. Meeks is expiring. Green is expiring. That's like 25 mill in expiring contracts. They should at least have that amount in cap space (which is still better than Harris eating up 17 mill/yr and leaving them with 8 mill for a bench player). If/when Vucevic is traded, that's possibly another 12 mill. They could also dump Augustin if needed. The flexibility is there.

First let me just say that: "That's like 25 mill in expiring contracts. They should at least have that amount in cap space" just isn't how the cap works. Orlando is 10m over the cap now, and Ibaka's caphold is a full 5m above his current salary, Gordon's salary goes up over 1m, etc. (And dumping Augustin alone shouldn't get it.)

Now, I really wasn't interested in re-debating the Harris trade as part of this offseason, but it seems disingenuous to say that: The Harris trade gave the Magic max cap room next year because they can always trade Vucevic and thus get max cap room next offseason. If that logic flies, couldn't you extend it and say the same thing for keeping Harris? The Magic will have max cap room in a year because they can always trade Vucevic and Harris.

I'm not so low on the Green flier because the Harris trade was a sunk cost, you cannot go back and recover it. But you also cannot use cap space from a Vucevic trade to justify it, or the Biyombo signing when there was plenty of room for that anyway.


I do think you hit on the second big question of the Orlando offseason:
1) (Starting) Point Guard production
2) Will both Vucevic and Biyombo stay.

Ibaka seems the perfect compliment to Vucevic, which would make it strange to (over?) pay for the perfect compliment and then trade Vucevic. On the other hand, signing Biyombo as your "first priority" only to trade him 6 months later is pretty unusual behavior.

And if you keep both, can you have that much cap in center and can an Ibaka-Biyombo front court play well together?

It is going to be interesting, because I think the answer to 2 is a lot less clear cut looking than 1.

You forgot to mention the cap is projected to climb up to 108 mill. So if they're at 104 now, with 25 mill in expiring, and Ibaka's extra 5 mill, that'd be a total of 84 committed (including ibaka's cap hold). 108-84= 24 mill in cap space. Let's forget Vucevic and Biyombo being traded. Let's say they both remain on the team. All the Magic would have to do is trade Augustin in order to have 32 mill in cap space. If they don't feel they can attract a max FA, maybe they just keep Augustin and still use the 24 mill on a really good player. One that fits better than Harris.

Thats still needs tweaking on the math. Granted part of it is because I got lazy (Ibaka's hold is up 6.125m for instance). And you have the natural growth of Vucevic's salary, and Payton's etc.

If the Magic cut Wilcox (don't pick up his option this fall, cut Zimmerman, and cut Watson, you still are looking at roughly 20m only.

But more fundamentally the claim that trading Tobias Harris got max cap room because you can then trade Augustin and get near max cap room is what I'm objecting to as a faulty reasoning. By that logic, keeping Harris could have gotten max cap room because you could trade Harris and Augustin.

[bondom34]

1. They have 25 mill in expiring contracts alone
2. They're better off with Green as a back up SF than little depth at that position. Gordon is just a 20 year old trying to play a new position full time. It's good to have a back up like Green. Its just a one year deal anyway.

And Harris would have been better than Green.

Green will play his role without complaining about minutes/touches/role IMO. Harris was unhappy being a bench player, and Gordon and Ibaka are both more productive so he wasn't going to start.

This isn't just Green vs Harris. Its Green+ capspace vs Harris.

You could have still traded Harris. And Green sucks, which is the bigger issue.

[wise1-2]

First let me just say that: "That's like 25 mill in expiring contracts. They should at least have that amount in cap space" just isn't how the cap works. Orlando is 10m over the cap now, and Ibaka's caphold is a full 5m above his current salary, Gordon's salary goes up over 1m, etc. (And dumping Augustin alone shouldn't get it.)

Now, I really wasn't interested in re-debating the Harris trade as part of this offseason, but it seems disingenuous to say that: The Harris trade gave the Magic max cap room next year because they can always trade Vucevic and thus get max cap room next offseason. If that logic flies, couldn't you extend it and say the same thing for keeping Harris? The Magic will have max cap room in a year because they can always trade Vucevic and Harris.

I'm not so low on the Green flier because the Harris trade was a sunk cost, you cannot go back and recover it. But you also cannot use cap space from a Vucevic trade to justify it, or the Biyombo signing when there was plenty of room for that anyway.


I do think you hit on the second big question of the Orlando offseason:
1) (Starting) Point Guard production
2) Will both Vucevic and Biyombo stay.

Ibaka seems the perfect compliment to Vucevic, which would make it strange to (over?) pay for the perfect compliment and then trade Vucevic. On the other hand, signing Biyombo as your "first priority" only to trade him 6 months later is pretty unusual behavior.

And if you keep both, can you have that much cap in center and can an Ibaka-Biyombo front court play well together?

It is going to be interesting, because I think the answer to 2 is a lot less clear cut looking than 1.

You forgot to mention the cap is projected to climb up to 108 mill. So if they're at 104 now, with 25 mill in expiring, and Ibaka's extra 5 mill, that'd be a total of 84 committed (including ibaka's cap hold). 108-84= 24 mill in cap space. Let's forget Vucevic and Biyombo being traded. Let's say they both remain on the team. All the Magic would have to do is trade Augustin in order to have 32 mill in cap space. If they don't feel they can attract a max FA, maybe they just keep Augustin and still use the 24 mill on a really good player. One that fits better than Harris.

Thats still needs tweaking on the math. Granted part of it is because I got lazy (Ibaka's hold is up 6.125m for instance). And you have the natural growth of Vucevic's salary, and Payton's etc.

If the Magic cut Wilcox (don't pick up his option this fall, cut Zimmerman, and cut Watson, you still are looking at roughly 20m only.

But more fundamentally the claim that trading Tobias Harris got max cap room because you can then trade Augustin and get near max cap room is what I'm objecting to as a faulty reasoning. By that logic, keeping Harris could have gotten max cap room because you could trade Harris and Augustin.

Ok, so Hezonja, Payton, Gordon and Vucevic's contracts increase a total of like 2.5 mill. Remove that from the 32 mill and the magic still have close to 30 mill in 2017 in capspace after getting rid of Augustin. Still enough for a max contract I believe. Horford got around 26-28 mill.

But I still think the Magic make other moves as well. Do you think the they will just add a max contract without making any moves? They can't add another max player and give him his minutes when you have 6 starters already with Hezonja looking for 30 mpg as well. They HAVE to move one of them in order to open up minutes for that max player. The Magic aren't a finished product, what matters right now is flexibility. Moving Augustin's 7 mill contract is much easier than moving 24 mill (Harris and Augustin) in contracts. Having Harris instead of Green reduces that future flexibility. It's easier to convince a FA to meet with you when you have 20+ mill in cap space, than when you're already significantly over the cap.

[wise1-2]

And Harris would have been better than Green.

Green will play his role without complaining about minutes/touches/role IMO. Harris was unhappy being a bench player, and Gordon and Ibaka are both more productive so he wasn't going to start.

This isn't just Green vs Harris. Its Green+ capspace vs Harris.

You could have still traded Harris. And Green sucks, which is the bigger issue.

Had they kept Harris and signed biyombo they'd be over the cap and still have a hole at back up PG since they probably woildnt be able to sign DJ. Not only that, but Harris wouldn't have been happy with an even more reduced role. There aren't enough minutes for him with Gordon emerging and Ibaka just added to the roster. Green knows he's a bench player at this point in his career, and he's a solid bench player capable of double digit scoring averages for a team in need of scoring.

[HartfordWhalers]

Green will play his role without complaining about minutes/touches/role IMO. Harris was unhappy being a bench player, and Gordon and Ibaka are both more productive so he wasn't going to start.

This isn't just Green vs Harris. Its Green+ capspace vs Harris.

You could have still traded Harris. And Green sucks, which is the bigger issue.

Had they kept Harris and signed biyombo they'd be over the cap and still have a hole at back up PG since they probably woildnt be able to sign DJ. Not only that, but Harris wouldn't have been happy with an even more reduced role. There aren't enough minutes for him with Gordon emerging and Ibaka just added to the roster. Green knows he's a bench player at this point in his career, and he's a solid bench player capable of double digit scoring averages for a team in need of scoring.

Orlando absolutely could have done everything they did this offseason if they kept Harris and just didn't trade for Meeks and sign Green -- including overpaying Augustin.

[bondom34]

Green will play his role without complaining about minutes/touches/role IMO. Harris was unhappy being a bench player, and Gordon and Ibaka are both more productive so he wasn't going to start.

This isn't just Green vs Harris. Its Green+ capspace vs Harris.

You could have still traded Harris. And Green sucks, which is the bigger issue.

Had they kept Harris and signed biyombo they'd be over the cap and still have a hole at back up PG since they probably woildnt be able to sign DJ. Not only that, but Harris wouldn't have been happy with an even more reduced role. There aren't enough minutes for him with Gordon emerging and Ibaka just added to the roster. Green knows he's a bench player at this point in his career, and he's a solid bench player capable of double digit scoring averages for a team in need of scoring.

What HW said.

[wise1-2]

You could have still traded Harris. And Green sucks, which is the bigger issue.

Had they kept Harris and signed biyombo they'd be over the cap and still have a hole at back up PG since they probably woildnt be able to sign DJ. Not only that, but Harris wouldn't have been happy with an even more reduced role. There aren't enough minutes for him with Gordon emerging and Ibaka just added to the roster. Green knows he's a bench player at this point in his career, and he's a solid bench player capable of double digit scoring averages for a team in need of scoring.

Orlando absolutely could have done everything they did this offseason if they kept Harris and just didn't trade for Meeks and sign Green -- including overpaying Augustin.

Then it becomes highly unlikely they can dump all that money necessary for a max. They'd likely be over the cap next year. Tobias just wasn't worth the loss in flexibility. it would be pretty difficult to dump near 30 mill in contracts in one offseason.

Augustin's contract was a slight overpay, but you're not getting a player as good/experienced for anything less than 5 mill/yr. If a second round pick is needed to dump him to open up room for a max, you don't hesitate. For now though, him and green will be decent bench players that add a couple of wins to the Magic's record in a tight eastern conference race for the play offs.

[HartfordWhalers]

Had they kept Harris and signed biyombo they'd be over the cap and still have a hole at back up PG since they probably woildnt be able to sign DJ. Not only that, but Harris wouldn't have been happy with an even more reduced role. There aren't enough minutes for him with Gordon emerging and Ibaka just added to the roster. Green knows he's a bench player at this point in his career, and he's a solid bench player capable of double digit scoring averages for a team in need of scoring.

Orlando absolutely could have done everything they did this offseason if they kept Harris and just didn't trade for Meeks and sign Green -- including overpaying Augustin.

Then it becomes highly unlikely they can dump all that money necessary for a max. They'd likely be over the cap next year. Augustin's contract was a slight overpay, but you're not getting a player as good/experienced for anything less than 5 mill/yr. If a second round pick is needed to dump him to open up room for a max, you don't hesitate. For now though, him and green will be decent bench players that add a couple of wins to the Magic's record in a tight eastern conference race for the play offs.

I can follow these gymnastics at this point.

You are claiming that Tobias Harris needed to be traded to get cap space that isn;t actually there yet but would need more trades. And that this wouldn't have been possible with Tobias Harris, implicitly stating that in a year Tobias Harris would not have been tradable for cap space also because he is the only difference.

I just think thats a huge stretch of an argument to defend a previous trade, and not one I am willing to follow.


That said, like I said before it doesn't change my take on this offseason.

[wise1-2]

Orlando absolutely could have done everything they did this offseason if they kept Harris and just didn't trade for Meeks and sign Green -- including overpaying Augustin.

Then it becomes highly unlikely they can dump all that money necessary for a max. They'd likely be over the cap next year. Augustin's contract was a slight overpay, but you're not getting a player as good/experienced for anything less than 5 mill/yr. If a second round pick is needed to dump him to open up room for a max, you don't hesitate. For now though, him and green will be decent bench players that add a couple of wins to the Magic's record in a tight eastern conference race for the play offs.

I can follow these gymnastics at this point.

You are claiming that Tobias Harris needed to be traded to get cap space that isn;t actually there yet but would need more trades. And that this wouldn't have been possible with Tobias Harris, implicitly stating that in a year Tobias Harris would not have been tradable for cap space also because he is the only difference.

I just think thats a huge stretch of an argument to defend a previous trade, and not one I am willing to follow.


That said, like I said before it doesn't change my take on this offseason.

No. You're hung up on the fact that trading Harris doesn't = max contract capspace. It's like you're completely ignoring that capspace created because it's not a max contract. I'm saying it gives us much more flexibility because it makes it possible and much easier to open up room for a max. Even if they don't, they still can grab a 20 mill/yr player that is better than Harris. To reduce the Harris trade to just acquiring Green and Meeks is very inaccurate. The moves being made this offseason, aren't solely for what happens this season. You have to take into account future implications. Otherwise, do you think it would've been better to lock up Evan Turner? He's a better player than green and making almost the same amount. Its the contract length that makes all the difference.

[HartfordWhalers]

Then it becomes highly unlikely they can dump all that money necessary for a max. They'd likely be over the cap next year. Augustin's contract was a slight overpay, but you're not getting a player as good/experienced for anything less than 5 mill/yr. If a second round pick is needed to dump him to open up room for a max, you don't hesitate. For now though, him and green will be decent bench players that add a couple of wins to the Magic's record in a tight eastern conference race for the play offs.

I can follow these gymnastics at this point.

You are claiming that Tobias Harris needed to be traded to get cap space that isn;t actually there yet but would need more trades. And that this wouldn't have been possible with Tobias Harris, implicitly stating that in a year Tobias Harris would not have been tradable for cap space also because he is the only difference.

I just think thats a huge stretch of an argument to defend a previous trade, and not one I am willing to follow.


That said, like I said before it doesn't change my take on this offseason.

No. You're hung up on the fact that trading Harris doesn't = max contract capspace. It's like you're completely ignoring that capspace created because it's not a max contract. I'm saying it gives us much more flexibility because it makes it possible and much easier to open up room for a max. Even if they don't, they still can grab a 20 mill/yr player that is better than Harris. To reduce the Harris trade to just acquiring Green and Meeks is very inaccurate.

Sure, but thats not what I said.

So far you have claimed that the Harris trade got Biyombo (not true), or max cap space (also not true).

It definitely did add to the amount of cap space next year.

[wise1-2]

I can follow these gymnastics at this point.

You are claiming that Tobias Harris needed to be traded to get cap space that isn;t actually there yet but would need more trades. And that this wouldn't have been possible with Tobias Harris, implicitly stating that in a year Tobias Harris would not have been tradable for cap space also because he is the only difference.

I just think thats a huge stretch of an argument to defend a previous trade, and not one I am willing to follow.


That said, like I said before it doesn't change my take on this offseason.

No. You're hung up on the fact that trading Harris doesn't = max contract capspace. It's like you're completely ignoring that capspace created because it's not a max contract. I'm saying it gives us much more flexibility because it makes it possible and much easier to open up room for a max. Even if they don't, they still can grab a 20 mill/yr player that is better than Harris. To reduce the Harris trade to just acquiring Green and Meeks is very inaccurate.

Sure, but thats not what I said.

So far you have claimed that the Harris trade got Biyombo (not true), or max cap space (also not true).

It definitely did add to the amount of cap space next year.

It made it possible and easy for Hennigan to open up more or less max capspace. All he needs to do is trade one or more of his players, which is necessary to open up playing time anyway. What I said is still far more accurate than your claim that Harris was traded to be replaced with green and Meeks.

So you agree trading Harris opens up cap space for next year, right? Do you not realise whether I say Harris was traded to sign Biyombo or to open up 17 mill next year it really doesn't matter? LOL. There's more than one way to look at it. Why do you think the money freed up from the Harris trade wasn't the same money used on Biyombo? They got the same amount, and you could basically consider the cap space they had this year was carried over to next year with Green acting as a placeholder.

[HartfordWhalers]

This rambling argument is a bad one.

Here is my first reply to you on this train wreck of a tangent:

They did not spend that freed up capspace on Green/Meeks. They used it on biyombo, who is a much better investment than Harris. Dumping harris ended up being a good move, as usual we can look back and say hennigan was right.

Orlando could have signed Biyombo without the Harris deal.

Which is absolutely true.

Can a Magic fan explain the basic logic to him here so he stops thinking this is a narrative?

Thanks

Chuck

"He [Bismack Biyombo] was our primary target in free agency," said Vogel during the introduction of Biyombo last month.

Right, and they had cap room for him even without the Tobias Harris deal.

So, they already had cap room for their first target -- Biyombo -- and the newly created extra cap room was used afterwards would be the more common way of looking at things.

We had 20m in cap room so we had to trade Harris to make 35m in room so we could sign Biyombo for 15m a year is a pretty strange take imo.

And then the max cap space argument:

They didn't have to trade Harris to sign Green either. You guys are missing the fact that green was a one year deal. Looking beyond this season (which Hennigan is doing) only Biyombo affects next years cap. Biyombo is taking up those 17 mill/yr that were going to Harris. They could've kept Harris, but then they don't have room for a max next year. The plan was always to have room for a max this summer and in 2017. Green doesn't affect next years cap space. Biyombo and Harris do. Green was signed give them some depth this year, and scoring off the bench. You can either say Hennigan replaced Harris with Green AND opened up room for a max next year, or he signed Biyombo. Instead you guys are reducing it to just Green replaced Harris, like we just signed Green to the same deal as Harris. That's not true at all. Biyombo's deal is much more similar to Harris'.

“And we always believed that this summer and next summer were going to be the two summers of free agency for us that we needed to focus on after developing our young guys.”- Alex Martins

Orlando won't have max cap space next year unless Ibaka walks.

There's more than one way to look at it.

Sure, but some are factually wrong.

Needing the trade to sign Biyombo, or getting max cap space next year from the trade are both entirely factually wrong. And returning to them to defend a (bad) previous season trade is just stupid at this point.

If you like the Tobias trade, I just don't care. If you keep saying inaccurate things about it or Orlando's 2017 cap situation, I might not even care about that at this point to correct you. But you will still be wrong.