Do you agree with hinkie's rebuild plan for the sixers?

[spearsy23]

So he wasn't viewed as a superstar, but always had that potential. The exact type of player Philly wants. SVG was handed that. Along with the asset that was Monroe. Really his only issues that were on that roster were lack of a PG and Smith. He had a decent bit to work with that Hinkie didn't at all.

So if i am understanding this correctly, the argument is that SVG fell into a great position with a great roster????????

SVg remolded this roster with

No first rounder in 2014
Backup pg+ backup SG+2nd round pick for starting pg
Non guranteed contract+2nd round pick for starting SF
2nd round pick for backup stretch 4
2 non gurantee'd contracts for starting PF

Cut josh smith and pay him not to play

i am so glad we had all those assets for him to make moves that Hinkie obviously didn't have.........

The point being made, as i continue to have to repeat, is the whole notion that SVG was "gifted" anything is largely false and so is the notion "he had a bit to work with". If "lack of pg and smith" are the only problems your able to derive,maybe its more a lack of knowing detroits situation vs detroits situation.

And he had assets on the roster. Hinkie had Holiday, owed draft picks, and nothing else. And Holiday is in no world as valuable as either of Drummond Monroe, or maybe KCP.

Eh... At the time Holiday was probably a similar asset to Monroe. Philly got a significant return for him.

That said, I think it's kinda off base to have a Detroit v Philly argument when neither team has actually gotten good yet. If five years from now Philly is competing for championships and Detroit is competing for the second round who cares if it took Philly 3 years to get solid and Detroit one year? If 5 years from now Philly is in the same place or below Detroit then I guess Detroit wins but they also were a worse team prior to Hinkie taking over the 76ers.

[spearsy23]

Oh, and besides somebody obviously trolling nobody has ever called Drummond a bust. The consensus was that he was always thought to be the steal of that draft once they actually started playing basketball.

[Blkbrd671]

And he had assets on the roster. Hinkie had Holiday, owed draft picks, and nothing else. And Holiday is in no world as valuable as either of Drummond Monroe, or maybe KCP.

still don't get whats your point. Didn't hinkie flip those assets into more assets?

FACT: Both GM's were handed a sh* show

FACT: Regardless of perceived "additional assets" that your indicating SVG had over hinkie, SVG reshaped his roster with minimal assets that Hinkie also had.

*side note: Holiday i believe was playing like a allstar during this period. So hindsights 20/20. "No world as valuable" is highly inaccurate.

[bondom34]

And he had assets on the roster. Hinkie had Holiday, owed draft picks, and nothing else. And Holiday is in no world as valuable as either of Drummond Monroe, or maybe KCP.

still don't get whats your point. Didn't hinkie flip those assets into more assets?

FACT: Both GM's were handed a sh* show

FACT: Regardless of perceived "additional assets" that your indicating SVG had over hinkie, SVG reshaped his roster with minimal assets that Hinkie also had.

*side note: Holiday i believe was playing like a allstar during this period. So hindsights 20/20. "No world as valuable" is highly inaccurate.

Yeah, except you're ignoring what Hinkie was handed isn't close to what Van Gundy was. Detroit wasn't good, but far from where Philly was.

[Blkbrd671]

Oh, and besides somebody obviously trolling nobody has ever called Drummond a bust. The consensus was that he was always thought to be the steal of that draft once they actually started playing basketball.

Its funny how quickly posters forget what they say or read, no specifically you, but everyone acting like "i knew dre was a star" is down right laughable. Its probably easier to take that stance with how he's played but by no means last year was Dre trending upwards. If anything , SVG showed how raw he still was 3 years into the league. Dre's always been massive potential vs little production. SO again , its funny to read stuff like that, as Dre until this year hasn't shown much to waive that "bust" lable yet everyone is actingl ike he's always been this kind of center . i am sure my fellow Piston fans will get a good laugh out of reading the whole "no one ever thought he was bust" comments, as they and i have had increased post counts defendeing that notion across various boards.

[Blkbrd671]

Yeah, except you're ignoring what Hinkie was handed isn't close to what Van Gundy was. Detroit wasn't good, but far from where Philly was.

Do explain how Hinkie's situation was soooooooooo much worst than SVG's to indicate almost a entire different tier of suck.

furthermore please explain how SVG's situation allowed him to make moves that Hinkie couldn't make because of his situation. I don't see the "massive difference" that your insinuating.

[bondom34]

Yeah, except you're ignoring what Hinkie was handed isn't close to what Van Gundy was. Detroit wasn't good, but far from where Philly was.

Do explain how Hinkie's situation was soooooooooo much worst than SVG's to indicate almost a entire different tier of suck.

[Blkbrd671]

Yeah, except you're ignoring what Hinkie was handed isn't close to what Van Gundy was. Detroit wasn't good, but far from where Philly was.

Do explain how Hinkie's situation was soooooooooo much worst than SVG's to indicate almost a entire different tier of suck.

i thought you were trying to prove that Hinkie's situation was worst?????????????

[bondom34]

Do explain how Hinkie's situation was soooooooooo much worst than SVG's to indicate almost a entire different tier of suck.

i thought you were trying to prove that Hinkie's situation was worst?????????????

You're right, that capped out team had way more that Dre, Monroe, Kcp, and all its picks. This is homer to a new level.

[spearsy23]

Oh, and besides somebody obviously trolling nobody has ever called Drummond a bust. The consensus was that he was always thought to be the steal of that draft once they actually started playing basketball.

Its funny how quickly posters forget what they say or read, no specifically you, but everyone acting like "i knew dre was a star" is down right laughable. Its probably easier to take that stance with how he's played but by no means last year was Dre trending upwards. If anything , SVG showed how raw he still was 3 years into the league. Dre's always been massive potential vs little production. SO again , its funny to read stuff like that, as Dre until this year hasn't shown much to waive that "bust" lable yet everyone is actingl ike he's always been this kind of center . i am sure my fellow Piston fans will get a good laugh out of reading the whole "no one ever thought he was bust" comments, as they and i have had increased post counts defendeing that notion across various boards.

http://www.detroitbadboys.com/2013/11/26/5149072/2012-nba-draft-andre-drummond
That cites an ESPN article from 2013 stating Drummond would be the second pick in a re-draft. Despite whatever manufactured slights you're creating the vast majority of people who care about the NBA have always seen Drummond as a great pick, even if nobody predicted him doing what he has done so far this season. You seem to think that an argument against a vocal minority somehow negates the fact that he was widely recognized as a steal with huge potential starting immediately after his class started playing in the NBA.

Edit: I've had numerous arguments over the years Because people call KD overrated. That doesn't change the fact that he is widely recognized as one of the best players in the game.

[Blkbrd671]

You're right, that capped out team had way more that Dre, Monroe, Kcp, and all its picks. This is homer to a new level.

first round pick
Evan Turner
Allstar Holiday
Thaddeaus young
levoy allen
spencer hawes
Nick young
Andrew Bynum---at that point in time, the hopes were still high on bynum. IN the end it was just bynum bieng high

SVG
no first round pick
Brandon Jennigns----whom everyone and their mother called a chucker or 6th man at best
KCP--whom everyone and their mother called a bust, but now of course, STEAL
Smith- 50million dollars
Monroe-- no trade and no resigning
DRE--- 3rd year player all potential

Kyle singler
Tony Mitchel
John Lucas
Caron Butler


The problem i see here is your confusing there value now with their value then. SVG had no allstar, had no first round pick, and roster that started 2 centers and a power forward, a inefficient sophmore sg and BJ who no one believed deserved a starting roll. While its easy say, OOOOOH BUT YOU GUYS HAD DRUMMOND!!!! Please! at that point in time, he was our worst low post defender, was regulated to clean up the boards and didn't have the staimna to play both ends consistently, poor technique etc. For f* sake he was practicing 3 pointers in practice!!!!!! SVG is the only reason why dre is who he is today. Lets not confuse that with what SVG inherited.


If it makes you feel better, i'll concede that Hinikie had it worst, but it is laughable to call his situation "so much worst" than detroits. Furthermore the moves that SVG made, had little to do with any of the major assets inherited. Its not homer-ism, its called a accurate UNBIASED view point.

[Blkbrd671]

http://www.detroitbadboys.com/2013/11/26/5149072/2012-nba-draft-andre-drummond
That cites an ESPN article from 2013 stating Drummond would be the second pick in a re-draft. Despite whatever manufactured slights you're creating the vast majority of people who care about the NBA have always seen Drummond as a great pick, even if nobody predicted him doing what he has done so far this season. You seem to think that an argument against a vocal minority somehow negates the fact that he was widely recognized as a steal with huge potential starting immediately after his class started playing in the NBA.

Edit: I've had numerous arguments over the years Because people call KD overrated. That doesn't change the fact that he is widely recognized as one of the best players in the game.

Insert "multiple sources meme" here


I wanted to take you seriously, but then you referred to ESPN. Argue all you want spearsy, not going to change facts. If any of you thought that Dre was the 2nd best player in any of the past 3 years of his career , then your obviously just watching dunk highlights and the 1 block he had in the game or reading poorly written espn analysis. Of course ESPN probably saw him practicing 3 pointers and claimed he developed a 3 point shot.

There's no way anyone could have looked at DRe before SVG and said GURANTEEED STARTING CENTER as he largely was the same player that he was when drafted. RAW! and if they did make that claim, there argument was probably something around "i just know". Because there was no argument to be made other than. HE's so big and so athletic, which is more a childs argument.

[Knosh]

http://www.detroitbadboys.com/2013/11/26/5149072/2012-nba-draft-andre-drummond
That cites an ESPN article from 2013 stating Drummond would be the second pick in a re-draft. Despite whatever manufactured slights you're creating the vast majority of people who care about the NBA have always seen Drummond as a great pick, even if nobody predicted him doing what he has done so far this season. You seem to think that an argument against a vocal minority somehow negates the fact that he was widely recognized as a steal with huge potential starting immediately after his class started playing in the NBA.

Edit: I've had numerous arguments over the years Because people call KD overrated. That doesn't change the fact that he is widely recognized as one of the best players in the game.

Insert "multiple sources meme" here


I wanted to take you seriously, but then you referred to ESPN. Argue all you want spearsy, not going to change facts. If any of you thought that Dre was the 2nd best player in any of the past 3 years of his career , then your obviously just watching dunk highlights and the 1 block he had in the game or reading poorly written espn analysis. Of course ESPN probably saw him practicing 3 pointers and claimed he developed a 3 point shot.

There's no way anyone could have looked at DRe before SVG and said GURANTEEED STARTING CENTER as he largely was the same player that he was when drafted. RAW! and if they did make that claim, there argument was probably something around "i just know". Because there was no argument to be made other than. HE's so big and so athletic, which is more a childs argument.

Drummond being voted #16 in trade value on this board in early 2013: http://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=1227259

Drummond being voted #12 in value early 2014: http://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=1296993

Consensus opinion on this board pretty clearly was that Drummond was extremly valuable from the get go.

[LApwnd]

is he even under any sort of time frame at all to get this right? I mean if 2-3 years from now Phi is still the worse of the worse but with maybe 1-2 solid players on the roster, does that give him even more time?

[spearsy23]

Insert "multiple sources meme" here


I wanted to take you seriously, but then you referred to ESPN. Argue all you want spearsy, not going to change facts. If any of you thought that Dre was the 2nd best player in any of the past 3 years of his career , then your obviously just watching dunk highlights and the 1 block he had in the game or reading poorly written espn analysis. Of course ESPN probably saw him practicing 3 pointers and claimed he developed a 3 point shot.

Then why is it you were arguing against all these people who called Drummond a bust? It's amazing how fluidly your narrative changes. As Knosh said, this board had him ranked top 15 in trade value. ESPN had him at 2nd in a redraft. Towards the end of his rookie season SI ranked the pick an A- (behind only Davis and Lillard) and said

But whoever runs the show in 2013-14 will have to realize that Drummond’s potential is far and away the best thing this franchise has going for it.

Bleacher report said before the al-star break his rookie year

It's hard to ever declare a top-10 pick a steal, but it appears the Pistons got the best bang for their buck in the 2012 NBA draft.

Seriously, you're making up some perceived slight that doesn't exist. Drummond was a stud from day one and everyone knows it. You're claiming differently because you just have to be right. If someone had went on the Deteoit board and said Drummond had never shown any inkling he'd be a good center you'd be trashing that person and laughing your *** off.

There's no way anyone could have looked at DRe before SVG and said GURANTEEED STARTING CENTER as he largely was the same player that he was when drafted. RAW! and if they did make that claim, there argument was probably something around "i just know". Because there was no argument to be made other than. HE's so big and so athletic, which is more a childs argument.

Well this is just stupid. Did you become a Detroit fan last year? Drummond had already been a starting center for 81 games and averaged 13.5 and 13 with 1.6 blocks. He was already a good starting center by the time he was 20 years old.

[spearsy23]

You're right, that capped out team had way more that Dre, Monroe, Kcp, and all its picks. This is homer to a new level.

first round pick
Allstar Holiday
Thaddeaus young


Brandon Jennings
KCP
Monroe
DRE

I removed everything that didn't actually have value at the time. It's also important to note that Philly was out multiple future firsts. Ranking these assets
Drummond is by far and away the best, it's really not even close.

Jrue, we saw what he was traded for and it was a significant return.
Monroe, had value rivaling Holiday's, but was probably a bit less due to contract situation.

Philly pick (just an interesting side note but this pick was eventually turned into the LAL pick that will be high lottery, via a trade of Brandon Knight who previous Detroit management added to Middleton to get Jennings. That's just a nice illustration of how stupid previous management was.)
Caldwell-Pope, he was the 8th pick just a year prior and had definitely shown flashes. I don't think he could have returned the Philly pick so he is definitely lower than that, but I think mid teens is probably about right so not significantly worse.

Jennings, had returned Knight/Middleton a year prior. I think most people realized he wasn't very good, but he still had value around the league.
Young, was traded not for a Cavs pick guaranteed to be in the late 20's.

Basically Drummond is the real difference. He was by far and away the most valuable asset either team held, while the rest was all pretty similar. But I don't really see the point in the argument, it isn't like either team is in a great position right now. SVG already had his most significant asset in place, since then he has added an okay or even above average point guard, a really high upside rookie, and a bunch of veteran pieces that don't mean much in the long run. Hinkie has added a crap ton of picks, a really nice Center prospect and a great defensive big prospect, plus has Saric/Embiid that are still high upside guys (take points off for Embiid only having 2 years left on contract and not having shown anything), Covington (who has some value but probably won't be in Philly by the time they're good) and a bunch of D-leaguers who mean nothing. I think Philly clearly has the higher upside moving forward, but they also have much higher bust potential. If the question is 'which guy has done a better job,'I think it's clear they've both done well but nothing so spectacular that you should point towards them as proof that either philosophy is correct.

[winter_mute_13]

is he even under any sort of time frame at all to get this right? I mean if 2-3 years from now Phi is still the worse of the worse but with maybe 1-2 solid players on the roster, does that give him even more time?

Depends on who you ask!

Hinkie defenders will tell you it's all part of the process. And it's even true - the process doesn't have a timeline. It's an open-ended goal "until we get a superstar" that can be interpreted in many ways. That's the sheer genius of it!

In the real world of course, he'll be fired, unless if he has the owner in some kind of hypnotic hold. I don't know enough about Sixers ownership to say, other than that they seem pretty biddable so far.

[BullyKing]

i thought you were trying to prove that Hinkie's situation was worst?????????????

You're right, that capped out team had way more that Dre, Monroe, Kcp, and all its picks. This is homer to a new level.

The really hilarious point is that he is being a homer about his team being worse! There really isn't anything to say in response to a guy who's argument is predicated on "facts" like: When Hinkie took over "the hopes were still high on Bynum"; considers Levoy Allen and Nick Young some sort of real asset; believes Andre Drummond was a bust prior to this year; considers "Allstar Holiday" without considering that the one year he was an all-star there were like three injured PGs in the East; and SVG has made some huge transformation of the Pistons roster as opposed to them looking pretty much the same except Drummond has taken another step forward.

[BullyKing]

is he even under any sort of time frame at all to get this right? I mean if 2-3 years from now Phi is still the worse of the worse but with maybe 1-2 solid players on the roster, does that give him even more time?

Depends on who you ask!

Hinkie defenders will tell you it's all part of the process. And it's even true - the process doesn't have a timeline. It's an open-ended goal "until we get a superstar" that can be interpreted in many ways. That's the sheer genius of it!

In the real world of course, he'll be fired, unless if he has the owner in some kind of hypnotic hold. I don't know enough about Sixers ownership to say, other than that they seem pretty biddable so far.

Thank you for implying that people who support Hinkie don't live in the real world.

Nevertheless, the honest answer to your question is depends on circumstance. If we are still 2-3 worst in the league because of a Len Bias situation, ok, maybe that explains it. But outside of that, no, almost everyone would no longer support his plan.

[bondom34]

You're right, that capped out team had way more that Dre, Monroe, Kcp, and all its picks. This is homer to a new level.

first round pick
Evan Turner
Allstar Holiday
Thaddeaus young
levoy allen
spencer hawes
Nick young
Andrew Bynum---at that point in time, the hopes were still high on bynum. IN the end it was just bynum bieng high

SVG
no first round pick
Brandon Jennigns----whom everyone and their mother called a chucker or 6th man at best
KCP--whom everyone and their mother called a bust, but now of course, STEAL
Smith- 50million dollars
Monroe-- no trade and no resigning
DRE--- 3rd year player all potential

Kyle singler
Tony Mitchel
John Lucas
Caron Butler


The problem i see here is your confusing there value now with their value then. SVG had no allstar, had no first round pick, and roster that started 2 centers and a power forward, a inefficient sophmore sg and BJ who no one believed deserved a starting roll. While its easy say, OOOOOH BUT YOU GUYS HAD DRUMMOND!!!! Please! at that point in time, he was our worst low post defender, was regulated to clean up the boards and didn't have the staimna to play both ends consistently, poor technique etc. For f* sake he was practicing 3 pointers in practice!!!!!! SVG is the only reason why dre is who he is today. Lets not confuse that with what SVG inherited.


If it makes you feel better, i'll concede that Hinikie had it worst, but it is laughable to call his situation "so much worst" than detroits. Furthermore the moves that SVG made, had little to do with any of the major assets inherited. Its not homer-ism, its called a accurate UNBIASED view point.

Drummond was clearly more valuable than anything on that Philly roster. Its absurd to suggest otherwise, and if you don't know that then you just didn't ever pay attention to anything outside Detroit.
Monroe was probably about equal to Holiday.

Turner from 2012:
http://www.libertyballers.com/2012/10/17/3516862/evan-turners-2012-success-or-failure-would-alter-sixers-plans

The Sixers can let him walk, declining his option and making him a free agent. That doesn't exactly maximize their investment on the former 2nd overall pick, but it does clear more cap space to go after free agents. They could pick up the option then trade him, but the return on that wouldn't be excellent considering we're under the assumption that Evan has played poorly. I think someone would give him a chance, especially if they're willing to roll the dice on him as a point guard, but the market wouldn't be booming with great offers.

This article also listed "team friendly contracts" that included Andrew Bynum. Realize that Bynum never played a game there. The next best was Thad Young, who was actually a solid contract and they kept for a while. You then had in some order:
Dorell Wright (age 27)
Spencer Hawes (24)
Jason Richardson(32)
Arnett Moultrie (22)

All of who are either out of the league or on contracts universally seen as terrible.

And the fact that you can't see that's much worse is incredible in so many ways (and yes, homerism) when everyone else including non-Sixers fans can see it clear as day. There isn't a player there with any notable value outside the 2 who he actually got value from.