Do you agree with hinkie's rebuild plan for the sixers?

[Sportfan73]

Its a little early to tell;
The Sixers have something like 8 (?) 1sts or pick swaps or something and 10 (?) 2nd round picks owned to them over the next five drafts, a ton of space, and some solid young players.

Till we see what Hinkie Plans to do with the Picks and the Cash hard for me to hate on or love the plan.

The next two off seasons will tell it all. He's been making the owners money through all of this so they better be prepared to pay the tax. They need to capitalize on the space while they have everyone on their rookie deals which Noel is the first to be not next offseason. So he has this and next offseason to spend that money and then let his guys develop and resign them far into the tax for the best result.

[moocow007]

Its a little early to tell;
The Sixers have something like 8 (?) 1sts or pick swaps or something and 10 (?) 2nd round picks owned to them over the next five drafts, a ton of space, and some solid young players.

Till we see what Hinkie Plans to do with the Picks and the Cash hard for me to hate on or love the plan.

The Sixers would need to provide the elite players a reason to want to sign with them. The "oh we got a ton of draft picks" card won't work on the types of free agents that can actually turn them around. What it will work on (cause it won't matter) would be guys like Al Jefferson and Jeff Green (guys that will be chasing the biggest contract). In order to do that, they almost have to keep tanking until they get a once in a generation talent (a Lebron, a Shaq, etc.). The problem with that is once in a generation talent is called once in a generation because they don't come around but once in a generation. So we could be talking 2 years, we could be talking 5 years, we could be talking 10+ years. So...the Sixers could be stuck in this same limbo for a very, very, very long time. And the fact that players you draft can leave in 4 years puts a crimp in the "building slowly" route. Players that hate to lose (i.e. players you want to keep) will likely leave, leaving only those players looking for the most money/years (i.e. players that may not put winning as the most important thing) more likely to resign.

[Morris_Shatford]

Its a little early to tell;
The Sixers have something like 8 (?) 1sts or pick swaps or something and 10 (?) 2nd round picks owned to them over the next five drafts, a ton of space, and some solid young players.

Till we see what Hinkie Plans to do with the Picks and the Cash hard for me to hate on or love the plan.

The Sixers would need to provide the elite players a reason to want to sign with them. The "oh we got a ton of draft picks" card won't work on the types of free agents that can actually turn them around. What it will work on (cause it won't matter) would be guys like Al Jefferson and Jeff Green (guys that will be chasing the biggest contract). In order to do that, they almost have to keep tanking until they get a once in a generation talent (a Lebron, a Shaq, etc.). The problem with that is once in a generation talent is called once in a generation because they don't come around but once in a generation. So we could be talking 2 years, we could be talking 5 years, we could be talking 10+ years. So...the Sixers could be stuck in this same limbo for a very, very, very long time. And the fact that players you draft can leave in 4 years puts a crimp in the "building slowly" route. Players that hate to lose (i.e. players you want to keep) will likely leave, leaving only those players looking for the most money/years (i.e. players that may not put winning as the most important thing) more likely to resign.

Don't really disagree, but its still fairly early gauge one way or another;
If they walk out of the 2016 draft with a Ben Simmons and another high end talent they still have that existing talent and a ton of picks, assets, and capspace which could very much change the long term outlook of that team or they could add terrible talent or marginal talent and not move forward.

I think that having capspace and assets (be it picks or players) gives you two plays,
You have the ability to offer a team unloading a strong talent a pretty substantial offer and you have the means to chase talent in free agency.

Building is about options and the Sixers at a minimum have a lot of options.

[Morris_Shatford]

Its a little early to tell;
The Sixers have something like 8 (?) 1sts or pick swaps or something and 10 (?) 2nd round picks owned to them over the next five drafts, a ton of space, and some solid young players.

Till we see what Hinkie Plans to do with the Picks and the Cash hard for me to hate on or love the plan.

The next two off seasons will tell it all. He's been making the owners money through all of this so they better be prepared to pay the tax. They need to capitalize on the space while they have everyone on their rookie deals which Noel is the first to be not next offseason. So he has this and next offseason to spend that money and then let his guys develop and resign them far into the tax for the best result.

There is any number of directions that Hinkie could go;
While the example is not ideal, the Rockets horded assets and made the best offer for James Harden as their mechanism to add an elite talent they also utilized free agency to add a second elite talent in Dwight Howard.

The Sixers means to improve is essentially three fold; draft an elite talent, trade for an elite talent, sign an elite talent.
Granted that is easier said that done, but a lot of teams who are building usually have one or two of those options available to them whereas the Sixers seemingly have all three.

As you said, the next two offseasons will tell all.

[Renegade_H]

I just find it hard to believe that everyone bashes this plan when other teams have done it in the past. Yes, Hinkie has been extreme in it, but he had to with that whole Bynum trade. We had zero assets to work with and limited cap space. Hinkie blew it up as he should have.

And he created something that Philly fans applauded no matter how bad they are.

Lebron, Melo, Bryant, Wade, Paul, Duncan, Dirk, Rose - all getting older and more injured. A turning of the guard will be happening with the rebuilding teams. Sixers are building the right time to transition.

Okafor/Noel/Embiid/Holmes
Simmons/Saric/Covington/Grant
Murray/Stauskas/McConnell

Bold is my wish for 2016 draft if all goes well. How can you look at that young team who is already competing with Cleveland and other powerhouses and say they aren't on the right path??

Oh and we have a billion in cap space to keep our core and add depth WHEN THE TIME IS RIGHT.

[bondom34]

Bold is my wish for 2016 draft if all goes well. How can you look at that young team who is already competing with Cleveland and other powerhouses and say they aren't on the right path??

I think this is the issue people take.

[Renegade_H]

Bold is my wish for 2016 draft if all goes well. How can you look at that young team who is already competing with Cleveland and other powerhouses and say they aren't on the right path??

I think this is the issue people take.

Upset at the fact Sixers are keeping it close with some big team?

Hinkie is kinda proving that D-Leaguers versus Average NBA players making millions is not much of a difference. So why pay for them?

[bondom34]

Bold is my wish for 2016 draft if all goes well. How can you look at that young team who is already competing with Cleveland and other powerhouses and say they aren't on the right path??

I think this is the issue people take.

Upset at the fact Sixers are keeping it close with some big team?

Hinkie is kinda proving that D-Leaguers versus Average NBA players making millions is not much of a difference. So why pay for them?

They just lost by 29 to the Pacers. They're not at this point keeping anything close with anyone. I've backed this plan plenty, but at this point its starting to look worse and worse.

[Texas Chuck]

Bold is my wish for 2016 draft if all goes well. How can you look at that young team who is already competing with Cleveland and other powerhouses and say they aren't on the right path??

I think this is the issue people take.

Upset at the fact Sixers are keeping it close with some big team?

Hinkie is kinda proving that D-Leaguers versus Average NBA players making millions is not much of a difference. So why pay for them?

Hey I give the players and coaching staff a ton of credit for how hard they play for 48 minutes. It is impressive. But they are losing games by an average of 14 points which is a ton in this league. They really aren't close and what you claim are small differences not worth paying for are huge differences and its why the Sixers aren't winning.

That has nothing to do with the plan. But don't kid yourself about how good your team is currently playing. They are playing absolutely putrid, awful, terrible basketball. That's just a fact.

[Sportfan73]

I think this is the issue people take.

Upset at the fact Sixers are keeping it close with some big team?

Hinkie is kinda proving that D-Leaguers versus Average NBA players making millions is not much of a difference. So why pay for them?

They just lost by 29 to the Pacers. They're not at this point keeping anything close with anyone. I've backed this plan plenty, but at this point its starting to look worse and worse.

I don't think a move using Mia and Okc firsts to add to the core right now is out of the question. Have to get more out of this season.

[bondom34]

Upset at the fact Sixers are keeping it close with some big team?

Hinkie is kinda proving that D-Leaguers versus Average NBA players making millions is not much of a difference. So why pay for them?

They just lost by 29 to the Pacers. They're not at this point keeping anything close with anyone. I've backed this plan plenty, but at this point its starting to look worse and worse.

I don't think a move using Mia and Okc firsts to add to the core right now is out of the question. Have to get more out of this season.

That's the thing, what's the core anymore? Noel and Okafor are fine, but there's zero guard play. Heck, I know Sixers fans hate the idea, but Dion Waiters would legitimately be far and away your best guard.

[Waynearchetype]

I've always loved the idea of tanking for a pick or two. What concerns me with Hinkies more extreme method is how does tanking affect the development of young players, especially when it taken to such an extreme. How many players have turned into all stars being in such a situation? I'm genuinely curious if anyone knows. OKC tanked during Durant and Westbrooks rookie seasons, but even then they had a roster with many vets, and won more games than the 6ers have the last 2 season.

My concern is that the 6ers are getting these super talented players whose growth is being stunted by not giving them an adequate opportunity to win.

[HartfordWhalers]

That's the thing, what's the core anymore? Noel and Okafor are fine, but there's zero guard play. Heck, I know Sixers fans hate the idea, but Dion Waiters would legitimately be far and away your best guard.

http://bkref.com/tiny/DhAJ2

He doesn't separate himself at all, least of all into a far and away category.

[HartfordWhalers]

Heck here is last year for everyone (except McConnell who had none):
http://bkref.com/tiny/QZo3o

Waters was less efficient than Wroten and below rookie Stauskas.

[bondom34]

Heck here is last year for everyone (except McConnell who had none):
http://bkref.com/tiny/QZo3o

Waters was less efficient than Wroten and below rookie Stauskas.

The difference to me is he can actually not turn the ball over at an obscene rate. I'd still trade him for whatever Philly'd offer, but that's more of me not wanting to deal with his contract than anything.

[bondom34]

Also, he's done it in a situation that at least has some form of pressure.

[loserX]

Heck here is last year for everyone (except McConnell who had none):
http://bkref.com/tiny/QZo3o

Waters was less efficient than Wroten and below rookie Stauskas.

The difference to me is he can actually not turn the ball over at an obscene rate. I'd still trade him for whatever Philly'd offer, but that's more of me not wanting to deal with his contract than anything.

This actually wouldn't be the worst offer in the Noel thread

[HartfordWhalers]

Heck here is last year for everyone (except McConnell who had none):
http://bkref.com/tiny/QZo3o

Waters was less efficient than Wroten and below rookie Stauskas.

The difference to me is he can actually not turn the ball over at an obscene rate. I'd still trade him for whatever Philly'd offer, but that's more of me not wanting to deal with his contract than anything.

Yeah, but even if you want to bake in his turnovers into any all in stat:
VORP: Waiters is last.
WS/48:Middle of the pack
PER: Towards the bottom
BPM: In the middle

Waiters is not better than the guards Philly has right now. In fact, most metrics have him worse. Along with older and more expensive.

[bondom34]

Heck here is last year for everyone (except McConnell who had none):
http://bkref.com/tiny/QZo3o

Waters was less efficient than Wroten and below rookie Stauskas.

The difference to me is he can actually not turn the ball over at an obscene rate. I'd still trade him for whatever Philly'd offer, but that's more of me not wanting to deal with his contract than anything.

Yeah, but even if you want to bake in his turnovers into any all in stat:
VORP: Waiters is last.
WS/48:Middle of the pack
PER: Towards the bottom
BPM: In the middle

Waiters is not better than the guards Philly has right now. In fact, most metrics have him worse. Along with older and more expensive.

If you actually think that's the case, OK, but I'm really not believing it. And you know how low I am on Dion. He's also the best defender of the group and least turnover prone given his role (Stauskas turns it over less, but creates less too). Also, if you're doing this, use Dion's from this season. He still ranks pretty similarly, but has improved.

[HotelVitale]

I've always loved the idea of tanking for a pick or two. What concerns me with Hinkies more extreme method is how does tanking affect the development of young players, especially when it taken to such an extreme. How many players have turned into all stars being in such a situation? I'm genuinely curious if anyone knows. OKC tanked during Durant and Westbrooks rookie seasons, but even then they had a roster with many vets, and won more games than the 6ers have the last 2 season.

First, there's definitely a big chance that the plan doesn't work and that the team is treadmill-ish in a few years. The Hinkie rebuild still relies on hitting on picks and getting a few breaks (like all rebuilds). Anyone who says differently is doing some wishful thinking.

With that said, these concerns don't seem like the real problems of a rebuilding team. First off, Noel and Covington (the Sixers' only clear future building blocks) have played through exactly 1.1 seasons of bad basketball. Second, many many good to great players have had a couple bad seasons; I'd guess most great players went though that. Third, there's really no pt in comparing anything with OKC's rebuild--probably the best and quickest one ever, in which they drafted three top-5 players and four all-NBA guys in 3 years. That's not a reasonable expectation. (Also, the Sixers kept around scrubby vets like OKC did--last year they had Mbah a Moute, J Rich, Ish Smith, Shved playing big minutes at times. No better or worse than having Earl Watson and Szcerbiak out there).

I've said this a million times--there's nothing that strange about the Sixers' rebuild, it's pretty much the same exact thing ORL did a few years ago but w/ worse assets to start with. The Magic didn't keep any of their good vets (they traded Redick, Ry Anderson, Afflalo, etc when they could) and didn't sign anything but bargain bin FAs for a few years (aside from Frye last year, which was an obvious mistake). Spent a full 3 years winning fewer than 25 games and they're still not looking great in year 4 despite having a pretty good record with prospects.