Higher Trade Value: Deron or Dragic

[TruthTelling]

Agreed, Dragic is paid just fine and is a solid player.

But that's why I used the Kevin Love to Paul Millsap analogy.

And for arguments sake let's pretend Millsap is signed for an additional 2 seasons at around $10 to $11 mill a year(more then Goran, but again relative to the position he pays in comparison to the average market for services of such a level of player) so we don't say Millsap is a free agent to be and can and likely will walk, that's not the angle I am shooting for.

Except your analogy is utter failure considering that Kevin Love outplays Millsap unless you want to pick just the games when Love just returned from a long injury.

But Dragic outplays Williams.

Love is 3 years younger than Millsap too.

Williams is 2 years older than Dragic.

[TruthTelling]

The talent gap between Deron and Goran is staggering, no matter where you want to arbitrarily rank them based on 24 games or using a biased opinion exaggerated by using little to no context.

It's not, how can it be staggering in favor of Deron Williams according to you when Dragic pretty much outperforms him in any aspect of the game this season. Oh yeah because Williams is overrated, has been overrated for a while and more and more people are realizing it.

[TruthTelling]

Here's a good scenario to ponder if we ignore one catch in the CBA...

If New Orleans was set on getting a point guard, which do they offer more for? Deron Williams or Goran Dragic? And what do they offer?

How about the Pacers? Do they give up Paul George and picks for Deron? Or Paul George and George Hill? How about the same for Dragic?

Or how about this? If Memphis was offered Deron Williams for Mike Conley and 2 1sts do they bite? If not how heavily do they consider? What about if it's Dragic offered for the same package?

How much more does Utah offer for Deron back over Dragic?

What about Denver? Are you going to tell me they scoff at Lawson and picks for Deron but even consider dealing Lawson on his own for Dragic?

Unfortunately Isiah Thomas isn't in business right now.

Come on people, let's be honest with ourselves here.

This isn't even debate worthy.

It doesn't matter much what you think of Deron right now, let's think this through real life, real NBA front office style if that's also the perspective you're answering this in.

That is an ridiculous post.

Dragic right now is simply a better player than Deron, his production is much better than Deron, he is younger than Deron, he makes less than 1/3 of what Deron makes, he is less of a headcase than Deron.

He has more value than Deron. Only a fool of a GM who goes only by "name" instead of substance would consider Deron Williams more valueable right now.

[vincecarter4pres]

Agreed, Dragic is paid just fine and is a solid player.

But that's why I used the Kevin Love to Paul Millsap analogy.

And for arguments sake let's pretend Millsap is signed for an additional 2 seasons at around $10 to $11 mill a year(more then Goran, but again relative to the position he pays in comparison to the average market for services of such a level of player) so we don't say Millsap is a free agent to be and can and likely will walk, that's not the angle I am shooting for.

Except your analogy is utter failure considering that Kevin Love outplays Millsap unless you want to pick just the games when Love just returned from a long injury.

But Dragic outplays Williams.

Love is 3 years younger than Millsap too.

Williams is 2 years older than Dragic.

Wait, so it's OK that Love is playing like crap this year, but for Deron it's a cardinal sin and soothsayer 20/20 he keeps playing this way?

Injuries are a legit reason Love is playing like crap, but excuse and nonsense for Deron?

And are we looking at Deron as old? He's 28...

So Dragic has sort of, kind of outplayed Deron for 24 games, so he's better right?

Laughable.

[vincecarter4pres]

Here's a good scenario to ponder if we ignore one catch in the CBA...

If New Orleans was set on getting a point guard, which do they offer more for? Deron Williams or Goran Dragic? And what do they offer?

How about the Pacers? Do they give up Paul George and picks for Deron? Or Paul George and George Hill? How about the same for Dragic?

Or how about this? If Memphis was offered Deron Williams for Mike Conley and 2 1sts do they bite? If not how heavily do they consider? What about if it's Dragic offered for the same package?

How much more does Utah offer for Deron back over Dragic?

What about Denver? Are you going to tell me they scoff at Lawson and picks for Deron but even consider dealing Lawson on his own for Dragic?

Unfortunately Isiah Thomas isn't in business right now.

Come on people, let's be honest with ourselves here.

This isn't even debate worthy.

It doesn't matter much what you think of Deron right now, let's think this through real life, real NBA front office style if that's also the perspective you're answering this in.

That is an ridiculous post.

Dragic right now is simply a better player than Deron, his production is much better than Deron, he is younger than Deron, he makes less than 1/3 of what Deron makes, he is less of a headcase than Deron.

He has more value than Deron. Only a fool of a GM who goes only by "name" instead of substance would consider Deron Williams more valueable right now.

Great response.

What nonsense.

Like how you added that Zeke line, just caught that, that was nice.

I was just about to ask if you're a Knicks fan and I think I got my answer.

[TruthTelling]

Agreed, Dragic is paid just fine and is a solid player.

But that's why I used the Kevin Love to Paul Millsap analogy.

And for arguments sake let's pretend Millsap is signed for an additional 2 seasons at around $10 to $11 mill a year(more then Goran, but again relative to the position he pays in comparison to the average market for services of such a level of player) so we don't say Millsap is a free agent to be and can and likely will walk, that's not the angle I am shooting for.

Except your analogy is utter failure considering that Kevin Love outplays Millsap unless you want to pick just the games when Love just returned from a long injury.

But Dragic outplays Williams.

Love is 3 years younger than Millsap too.

Williams is 2 years older than Dragic.

Wait, so it's OK that Love is playing like crap this year, but for Deron it's a cardinal sin and soothsayer 20/20 he keeps playing this way?

Injuries are a legit reason Love is playing like crap, but excuse and nonsense for Deron?

And are we looking at Deron as old? He's 28...

So Dragic has sort of, kind of outplayed Deron for 24 games, so he's better right?

Laughable.

It's not just 24 games. Dragic has outplayed Deron ever since he beat out Lowry to start for the Rockets last year already.

It does not matter what you consider old. Deron Williams is 2 years older than Dragic, gives less production, is signed to a 5yr/100M$ crippling contract while Dragic makes 4 yrs/30M$.

Dragic will be 30 years old in his final year and making 7.5M$. Deron Williams will be 33 and making 20M$ plus when he is already showing signs that he is declining.

[TruthTelling]

Wait, so it's OK that Love is playing like crap this year, but for Deron it's a cardinal sin and soothsayer 20/20 he keeps playing this way?

Injuries are a legit reason Love is playing like crap, but excuse and nonsense for Deron?

Deron is not just comming back from injury, Love is.

Love is younger than Millsap in your comparison. While Williams is older than Dragic.

Williams should be in his prime right now, Love is barely out from his rookie contract.

Love production is down -7PER compared to the last 2 seasons. It's obviously an anomally due to his injury. Deron Williams by comparison is playing bad but not even that far off from his play in the last seasons. His per is only down 3 compared to last year with the Nets and about the same as the year before that with the Nets. His career PER average is lower than that of Dragic as a starter and lower than what Dragic is doing right now.

In his absolute prime season he one time put up 22.1PER compared to Dragic's 19.5PER this year. Even if Williams was able to reproduce that it surely doesn't make up for a salary difference of 12.5M$ per year.

Dragic's winshare of 0.143 has not even be reached by Deron Williams since 2009-2010. Since leaving Utah Williams has never had a higher winshare than Dragic.

[vincecarter4pres]

I love numbers but you can make them paint anything you want if you try hard enough.

I don't think you'll find a single soul who makes big decisions for an NBA franchise that will tell you Dragic is a better player then Deron Williams, it's just crazy talk.

The divide is huge.

Deron has been playing like **** this year for the most part, but...

His first 12 games in NJ and last year he was still a very good player outside his crappy shooting. An elite player most nights.

And you haven't been paying attention if you didn't know Deron has an ankle that needs surgery, a wrist that again needs surgery and a bunch of other nagging simple stuff that a lot of players deal with, but is playing through both the 2 big injuries that most players would sit with and all the common nagging ones that compound things.

Also, Avery Johnson has really used him like **** and is an awful offensive coach.

This isn't some all out apology for him. He hasn't had good body language, he's been a deferring machine most nights, isn't aggressive as he's been in the past and overall has not been Deron Williams.

But it's not like he's been an outright scrub. He's still easily been on par as a top 30 player overall.

Dragic can't sniff that with anteater nose transplant surgery no matter what numbers say and really his numbers overall say something like top 50 to 60 player at best.

[TruthTelling]

His first 12 games in NJ and last year he was still a very good player outside his crappy shooting. An elite player most nights.

His first 12 games in NJ he put up worse stats than what he does this year.

He put up 17.0PER 39.6%eFG 0.06WS 18.1%TOV

[vincecarter4pres]

His first 12 games in NJ and last year he was still a very good player outside his crappy shooting. An elite player most nights.

His first 12 games in NJ he put up worse stats than what he does this year.

He put up 17.0PER 39.6%eFG 0.06WS 18.1%TOV

13 assists per game with one of the worst casts of the decade around him.

[TruthTelling]

But it's not like he's been an outright scrub. He's still easily been on par as a top 30 player overall.

Dragic can't sniff that with anteater nose transplant surgery no matter what numbers say and really his numbers overall say something like top 50 to 60 player at best.

Dragic's numbers all across the board are BETTER than Deron.

I guess Deron must be a top 100 player at best then.

[TruthTelling]

His first 12 games in NJ and last year he was still a very good player outside his crappy shooting. An elite player most nights.

His first 12 games in NJ he put up worse stats than what he does this year.

He put up 17.0PER 39.6%eFG 0.06WS 18.1%TOV

13 assists per game with one of the worst casts of the decade around him.

And he shot under 35% and scored barely 14ppg.

[vincecarter4pres]

You have a clear agenda here. Only a fool would argue Goran Dragic is a better player then Deron Williams.

[TruthTelling]

You have a clear agenda here. Only a fool would argue Goran Dragic is a better player then Deron Williams.

The fool here is you, you haven't given a single argument to support your claims at all. (no saying "a GM would give up more for Williams" backed up by nothing is not an argument)

You can try as hard as you want but you can't discuss this away because these are facts my friend

1. Dragic is younger.
2. Dragic produces better and more effeciently.
3. Dragic makes less than 1/3 of what William makes and is signed for 4 years.

Only a fool can come to the conclusion that Williams has way more trade value. Deron Williams will end up the next Joe Johnson with his contract.
Any smart GM realizes that and would not touch Williams with a ten foot pole unless he could dump bad contracts on the Nets because else it is almost impossible to build a team around him with that contract.

[loserX]

It's Deron by a country mile, even if he hasn't been playing all that well recently. I don't think anyone expects his impairment to be permanent.

He has more talent and FAR more drawing power. Any GM, even if they'd prefer to keep Dragic because he's cheaper, would expect to have to trade more for Deron. And that's trade value.

[kobe_vs_jordan]

Superstars win championships. Deron will turn it around once the nets get a real offense. Deron size and quickness makes him a match up problem playoff time. From an owner machine Deron is a much bigger cash cow than Dragic.

[Guy986]

I vote Williams by a good margin.

He's proven he can play at a star level. And he's a big name. 20 something odd game is still a small sample size all things considered.

[TruthTelling]

Superstars win championships. Deron will turn it around once the nets get a real offense. Deron size and quickness makes him a match up problem playoff time. From an owner machine Deron is a much bigger cash cow than Dragic.

Deron Williams is no superstar.

Goran Dragic is bigger and quicker than Deron.

Deron Williams being a cash cow is a joke. He is nowhere near the status of someone like Lebron but makes more money. At 20M$+ a season Deron Williams is no cash cow at all.
He is just an allstar and hasn't played up to that level in years.

I vote Williams by a good margin.

He's proven he can play at a star level. And he's a big name. 20 something odd game is still a small sample size all things considered.

The last time he showed that was almost 3 years ago and it is not 20 something odd games. It's more like 60 dating back from last season that Dragic has outperformed Williams.

[loserX]

Superstars win championships. Deron will turn it around once the nets get a real offense. Deron size and quickness makes him a match up problem playoff time. From an owner machine Deron is a much bigger cash cow than Dragic.

Deron Williams is no superstar.

I think you'll find yourself in a minority on that one. Possibly a smaller minority than you have in this poll (currently about 3-to-1 in favour of Deron, not that it's scientific).

Deron Williams being a cash cow is a joke. He is nowhere near the status of someone like Lebron but makes more money. At 20M$+ a season Deron Williams is no cash cow at all.

11th in player jersey sales so far this season. So you are just plain wrong on this one.

As for comparing him to LeBron's payscale, that's just silly. LeBron's contract is artificially constrained by the CBA, and he voluntarily took less than he could have. You can't expect the entire league to downscale accordingly, that's not how economics work.

[vincecarter4pres]

LoserX keeping it real in a much more diplomatic fashion then myself.