PMOTT3 and Chuck Texas Early Off-Season Review: OKC Thunder

[Texas Chuck]

HW,

nearly every team in the league plays 2 PG's together for meaningful stretches these days. I wouldn't worry much at all about too many minutes for Payne if he earns them. Westbrook certainly has the size/strength to defend wings so its a non-issue defensively for OKC and if he beats out the other options that's a good thing for OKC.

[bondom34]

Westbrook should be logging 38 mpg.
Payne getting the remaining 10 mpg as backup pg isn't big minutes. And if Payne is playing next to Westbrook, it is just a testament that the sg rotation sucks.

This is entirely unrealistic, no human can do this and actually remain effective come postseason. He should be around 33-4. And the remaining 14-5 minutes being used with Payne playing 10 there and 5 at SG would be pretty big rotation minutes.

17 players played 38 or more mpg in the playoffs. (Another 6 players played 37-38 minutes.) Westbrook and Durant should both be in that category next summer.

So, it comes down to that you are getting 10 pg minutes from Payne and if you are getting 5 sg minutes, it is because your 1st and 2nd string sg's aren't what they should be.

{And yeah, I'm fine with him not playing a full 38 in the regular season when only Jimmy Butler was ran into the ground. But those extra 4 minutes in the regular season probably go to Augustin anyway.}

Not really. The 38 mpg isn't something players do on championship teams for full seasons. So if you're going 82 games I don't want him over 35 max, and Roberson never plays over 20 anyway. I don't want Dion playing more than 20, so you have Morrow.

96 mpg between the guard spots:

Westbrook (28)/DJ (10)/Payne (10)
Roberson (12)/Morrow (20)/Waiters (10)/Westbrook (6)

I'd consider 10 mpg decent rotation minutes.

[Texas Chuck]

Can someone explain why OKC "had to" match the Kanter deal? They've got an excellent three man rotation of young bigs.

Adams and McGary are nice young players. But they aren't guys who you look at and think we don't need more bigs. I still they are short a quality big now. Without Kanter the need would be dire. You are overrating hustle players Adams and McGary a lot.

[MoneyTalks41890]

I'm not sure what these grand opportunities that OKC didn't take advantage of were? The stuff I was proposing on here revolved around Lamb and PJ having some value, which I was clearly proven wrong about, so minus a deal with McGary or the lotto pick there wasn't much to be done. And I'm glad they didn't panic and do something with either of those pieces. I'd still like to see a deal with Novak and Waiters for Mayo, but there's not much else that might have even been on the table. Open to being proven wrong if someone can point to a missed opportunity.

Atlanta got Splitter for cap space, and Dallas got Zaza for the same. Either of those would have done wonders, but so would have Barnes also gotten for cap space.

So, instead of Lamb + PJIII + 2nd for a 2nd and nothing, OKC could have tried to have done that and gotten Zaza or Barnes (especially that one since that almost happened but they choose not to).

So, there are 2 guys that were possible and I like as rotation buffs. Neither would be my first choice, and I do think some of the better fits could have been pried, admittedly at a cost that you might not have liked.

Okay ,but OKC didn't have cap space to offer, and it doesn't look like anyone would have rather had those two guys than cap. They have two smaller TPEs from those deals. And Barnes could have gone to OKC, but there's some history there and I imagine that's why Memphis got involved.

Kanter for Bradley wouldn't have been bad, but OKC wanted to keep Kanter. Olshey screwed them a bit on the terms, but they were prepared for a big deal.

And as to the why the had to march, they wanted to, and they were prepared to hand him a big deal when they traded for him. His big deal upcoming was one of the reasons he came so cheap. It would have been better at a few mil less per and no PO, but that's RFA, and i don't believe you let a guy walk over that difference.

[HartfordWhalers]

This is entirely unrealistic, no human can do this and actually remain effective come postseason. He should be around 33-4. And the remaining 14-5 minutes being used with Payne playing 10 there and 5 at SG would be pretty big rotation minutes.

17 players played 38 or more mpg in the playoffs. (Another 6 players played 37-38 minutes.) Westbrook and Durant should both be in that category next summer.

So, it comes down to that you are getting 10 pg minutes from Payne and if you are getting 5 sg minutes, it is because your 1st and 2nd string sg's aren't what they should be.

{And yeah, I'm fine with him not playing a full 38 in the regular season when only Jimmy Butler was ran into the ground. But those extra 4 minutes in the regular season probably go to Augustin anyway.}

Not really. The 38 mpg isn't something players do on championship teams for full seasons. So if you're going 82 games I don't want him over 35 max, and Roberson never plays over 20 anyway. I don't want Dion playing more than 20, so you have Morrow.

96 mpg between the guard spots:

Westbrook (28)/DJ (10)/Payne (10)
Roberson (12)/Morrow (20)/Waiters (10)/Westbrook (6)

I'd consider 10 mpg decent rotation minutes.

10mpg doesn't qualify as big minutes to me. Its not top 8 in rotation, but that 9th guy that might get 12 or might get 4 in a playoff game.

Also, not sure if you skimmed, but I'm fine with Westbrook at 34 in the regular season. It is come playoffs that he should be playing 38 and then the window for Payne to matter is very small.

[bondom34]

Kind of docking them for the last few months rather than just the season, but seems like they missed an opportunity to really put pressure on the rest of the league and instead just hurt their own flexibility.

Still a strong top four team which is crazy.

And they actually didn't hurt flexibility at all, they'd be in worse shape had they done nothing and let Kanter walk. This is the season for all these teams to pay big because when the cap jumps, everyone has space to sign whoever. This was the offseason to go into the tax.

Can someone explain why OKC "had to" match the Kanter deal? They've got an excellent three man rotation of young bigs.

Adams and McGary are nice young players. But they aren't guys who you look at and think we don't need more bigs. I still they are short a quality big now. Without Kanter the need would be dire. You are overrating hustle players Adams and McGary a lot.

And this. Ibaka isn't a real C, McGary is an energy guy, Collison is limited. Adams is great but can't handle the whole load.

[bondom34]

17 players played 38 or more mpg in the playoffs. (Another 6 players played 37-38 minutes.) Westbrook and Durant should both be in that category next summer.

So, it comes down to that you are getting 10 pg minutes from Payne and if you are getting 5 sg minutes, it is because your 1st and 2nd string sg's aren't what they should be.

{And yeah, I'm fine with him not playing a full 38 in the regular season when only Jimmy Butler was ran into the ground. But those extra 4 minutes in the regular season probably go to Augustin anyway.}

Not really. The 38 mpg isn't something players do on championship teams for full seasons. So if you're going 82 games I don't want him over 35 max, and Roberson never plays over 20 anyway. I don't want Dion playing more than 20, so you have Morrow.

96 mpg between the guard spots:

Westbrook (28)/DJ (10)/Payne (10)
Roberson (12)/Morrow (20)/Waiters (10)/Westbrook (6)

I'd consider 10 mpg decent rotation minutes.

10mpg doesn't qualify as big minutes to me. Its not top 8 in rotation, but that 9th guy that might get 12 or might get 4 in a playoff game.

Also, not sure if you skimmed, but I'm fine with Westbrook at 34 in the regular season. It is come playoffs that he should be playing 38 and then the window for Payne to matter is very small.

TBH, by the postseason I'd hope Payne is taking over for DJ or darn close.

[MoneyTalks41890]

Adams at 21 is not a guy who can carry the whole load for a chip team.

[Texas Chuck]

Also, not sure if you skimmed, but I'm fine with Westbrook at 34 in the regular season. It is come playoffs that he should be playing 38 and then the window for Payne to matter is very small.

I think Westbrook and Durant are playing 40+ in close playoff games regardless. But if Payne plays well enough to be trusted in playoff time then he will still get minutes . For example Reggie Jackson was 4th on the team in minutes the last time they were in the playoffs. And Westbrook played 39 mpg.

And 2014 Reggie Jackson isn't that high of a bar to reach btw

[HartfordWhalers]

I'm not sure what these grand opportunities that OKC didn't take advantage of were? The stuff I was proposing on here revolved around Lamb and PJ having some value, which I was clearly proven wrong about, so minus a deal with McGary or the lotto pick there wasn't much to be done. And I'm glad they didn't panic and do something with either of those pieces. I'd still like to see a deal with Novak and Waiters for Mayo, but there's not much else that might have even been on the table. Open to being proven wrong if someone can point to a missed opportunity.

Atlanta got Splitter for cap space, and Dallas got Zaza for the same. Either of those would have done wonders, but so would have Barnes also gotten for cap space.

So, instead of Lamb + PJIII + 2nd for a 2nd and nothing, OKC could have tried to have done that and gotten Zaza or Barnes (especially that one since that almost happened but they choose not to).

So, there are 2 guys that were possible and I like as rotation buffs. Neither would be my first choice, and I do think some of the better fits could have been pried, admittedly at a cost that you might not have liked.

Okay ,but OKC didn't have cap space to offer, and it doesn't look like anyone would have rather had those two guys than cap. They have two smaller TPEs from those deals. And Barnes could have gone to OKC, but there's some history there and I imagine that's why Memphis got involved.

Kanter for Bradley wouldn't have been bad, but OKC wanted to keep Kanter. Olshey screwed them a bit on the terms, but they were prepared for a big deal.

And as to the why the had to march, they wanted to, and they were prepared to hand him a big deal when they traded for him. His big deal upcoming was one of the reasons he came so cheap. It would have been better at a few mil less per and no PO, but that's RFA, and i don't believe you let a guy walk over that difference.

Combing deals -- just the existing ones that happened -- they would have had been able to take on the players in matching. So, I was trying to find something where it could easily have been folded in and I think both match that.

[bondom34]

I'm not sure what these grand opportunities that OKC didn't take advantage of were? The stuff I was proposing on here revolved around Lamb and PJ having some value, which I was clearly proven wrong about, so minus a deal with McGary or the lotto pick there wasn't much to be done. And I'm glad they didn't panic and do something with either of those pieces. I'd still like to see a deal with Novak and Waiters for Mayo, but there's not much else that might have even been on the table. Open to being proven wrong if someone can point to a missed opportunity.

Atlanta got Splitter for cap space, and Dallas got Zaza for the same. Either of those would have done wonders, but so would have Barnes also gotten for cap space.

So, instead of Lamb + PJIII + 2nd for a 2nd and nothing, OKC could have tried to have done that and gotten Zaza or Barnes (especially that one since that almost happened but they choose not to).

So, there are 2 guys that were possible and I like as rotation buffs. Neither would be my first choice, and I do think some of the better fits could have been pried, admittedly at a cost that you might not have liked.

And these are all entirely unfair for the reasons Money said. Houston got Lawson for 10 mil in NG deals, OKC didn't have em. Bradley's fine, but it leaves them down a big and I don't see Boston adding anything else. No cap space for Zaza or Splitter, and is a 35 year old Barnes even worth bothering with? I mean you can kill every team for what they didn't do in a hypothetical when it wasn't a real possibility. I'd like to see them trade for Boogie Cousins but I'm not docking points because it isn't realistic.

[MoneyTalks41890]

But neither of those teams wanted expirings, they wanted cap space to pursue other players. Would Philly have taken Lamb and PJ into space to facilitate? I'm not so sure.

[bondom34]

Atlanta got Splitter for cap space, and Dallas got Zaza for the same. Either of those would have done wonders, but so would have Barnes also gotten for cap space.

So, instead of Lamb + PJIII + 2nd for a 2nd and nothing, OKC could have tried to have done that and gotten Zaza or Barnes (especially that one since that almost happened but they choose not to).

So, there are 2 guys that were possible and I like as rotation buffs. Neither would be my first choice, and I do think some of the better fits could have been pried, admittedly at a cost that you might not have liked.

Okay ,but OKC didn't have cap space to offer, and it doesn't look like anyone would have rather had those two guys than cap. They have two smaller TPEs from those deals. And Barnes could have gone to OKC, but there's some history there and I imagine that's why Memphis got involved.

Kanter for Bradley wouldn't have been bad, but OKC wanted to keep Kanter. Olshey screwed them a bit on the terms, but they were prepared for a big deal.

And as to the why the had to march, they wanted to, and they were prepared to hand him a big deal when they traded for him. His big deal upcoming was one of the reasons he came so cheap. It would have been better at a few mil less per and no PO, but that's RFA, and i don't believe you let a guy walk over that difference.

Combing deals -- just the existing ones that happened -- they would have had been able to take on the players in matching. So, I was trying to find something where it could easily have been folded in and I think both match that.

Again, OKC didn't have cap, teams wanted it. So it would be:

Splitter to OKC for nothing (OKC couldn't do it, and why help the Spurs?).

Zaza for cap space (OKC didn't have it).

[HartfordWhalers]

I'm not sure what these grand opportunities that OKC didn't take advantage of were? The stuff I was proposing on here revolved around Lamb and PJ having some value, which I was clearly proven wrong about, so minus a deal with McGary or the lotto pick there wasn't much to be done. And I'm glad they didn't panic and do something with either of those pieces. I'd still like to see a deal with Novak and Waiters for Mayo, but there's not much else that might have even been on the table. Open to being proven wrong if someone can point to a missed opportunity.

Atlanta got Splitter for cap space, and Dallas got Zaza for the same. Either of those would have done wonders, but so would have Barnes also gotten for cap space.

So, instead of Lamb + PJIII + 2nd for a 2nd and nothing, OKC could have tried to have done that and gotten Zaza or Barnes (especially that one since that almost happened but they choose not to).

So, there are 2 guys that were possible and I like as rotation buffs. Neither would be my first choice, and I do think some of the better fits could have been pried, admittedly at a cost that you might not have liked.

And these are all entirely unfair for the reasons Money said. Houston got Lawson for 10 mil in NG deals, OKC didn't have em. Bradley's fine, but it leaves them down a big and I don't see Boston adding anything else. No cap space for Zaza or Splitter, and is a 35 year old Barnes even worth bothering with? I mean you can kill every team for what they didn't do in a hypothetical when it wasn't a real possibility. I'd like to see them trade for Boogie Cousins but I'm not docking points because it isn't realistic.

I definitely thought I had spelled this out.

OKC did the following:
Lamb to Charlotte (for a 2nd)
PJ to Boston (with a 2nd)

Now, lets pretend that like some other teams have done *cough Boston* instead of rushing them they held off a few days for 'other moves'.

Could OKC have combined those trades with taking on Zaza? Of course. Heck OKC had the option to take on Barnes in that deal, and switched to not taking him.

I'm pointing out two very realistic targets, countering with comparing it to saying they should have traded for Boogie Cousins is **** asinine.

[bondom34]

Atlanta got Splitter for cap space, and Dallas got Zaza for the same. Either of those would have done wonders, but so would have Barnes also gotten for cap space.

So, instead of Lamb + PJIII + 2nd for a 2nd and nothing, OKC could have tried to have done that and gotten Zaza or Barnes (especially that one since that almost happened but they choose not to).

So, there are 2 guys that were possible and I like as rotation buffs. Neither would be my first choice, and I do think some of the better fits could have been pried, admittedly at a cost that you might not have liked.

And these are all entirely unfair for the reasons Money said. Houston got Lawson for 10 mil in NG deals, OKC didn't have em. Bradley's fine, but it leaves them down a big and I don't see Boston adding anything else. No cap space for Zaza or Splitter, and is a 35 year old Barnes even worth bothering with? I mean you can kill every team for what they didn't do in a hypothetical when it wasn't a real possibility. I'd like to see them trade for Boogie Cousins but I'm not docking points because it isn't realistic.

I definitely thought I had spelled this out.

OKC did the following:
Lamb to Charlotte (for a 2nd)
PJ to Boston (with a 2nd)

Now, lets pretend that like some other teams have done *cough Boston* instead of rushing them they held off a few days for 'other moves'.

Could OKC have combined those trades with taking on Zaza? Of course. Heck OKC had the option to take on Barnes in that deal, and switched to not taking him.

I'm pointing out two very realistic targets, countering with comparing it to saying they should have traded for Boogie Cousins is **** asinine.

I know, it was hyperbolic.

But you're assuming the Bucks wanted Lamb and PJ, when they didn't. That's the problem. And the Splitter deal still isn't realistic.

[HartfordWhalers]

And these are all entirely unfair for the reasons Money said. Houston got Lawson for 10 mil in NG deals, OKC didn't have em. Bradley's fine, but it leaves them down a big and I don't see Boston adding anything else. No cap space for Zaza or Splitter, and is a 35 year old Barnes even worth bothering with? I mean you can kill every team for what they didn't do in a hypothetical when it wasn't a real possibility. I'd like to see them trade for Boogie Cousins but I'm not docking points because it isn't realistic.

I definitely thought I had spelled this out.

OKC did the following:
Lamb to Charlotte (for a 2nd)
PJ to Boston (with a 2nd)

Now, lets pretend that like some other teams have done *cough Boston* instead of rushing them they held off a few days for 'other moves'.

Could OKC have combined those trades with taking on Zaza? Of course. Heck OKC had the option to take on Barnes in that deal, and switched to not taking him.

I'm pointing out two very realistic targets, countering with comparing it to saying they should have traded for Boogie Cousins is **** asinine.

I know, it was hyperbolic.

But you're assuming the Bucks wanted Lamb and PJ, when they didn't. That's the problem. And the Splitter deal still isn't realistic.

No, just swing it.

Lamb to Charlotte
PJII to Boston
Zaza to Okc

(And technically I guess Milwaukee has to waive Ridnour's 0 money guaranteed deal, which leaves Milwaukee the same but they also could trade him to Toronto with cash for a TPE).

[bondom34]

I definitely thought I had spelled this out.

OKC did the following:
Lamb to Charlotte (for a 2nd)
PJ to Boston (with a 2nd)

Now, lets pretend that like some other teams have done *cough Boston* instead of rushing them they held off a few days for 'other moves'.

Could OKC have combined those trades with taking on Zaza? Of course. Heck OKC had the option to take on Barnes in that deal, and switched to not taking him.

I'm pointing out two very realistic targets, countering with comparing it to saying they should have traded for Boogie Cousins is **** asinine.

I know, it was hyperbolic.

But you're assuming the Bucks wanted Lamb and PJ, when they didn't. That's the problem. And the Splitter deal still isn't realistic.

No, just swing it.

Lamb to Charlotte
PJII to Boston
Zaza to Okc

(And technically I guess Milwaukee has to waive Ridnour's 0 money guaranteed deal, which leaves Milwaukee the same but they also could trade him to Toronto with cash for a TPE).

Still leaving another question...why does OKC want Zaza if they have Kanter/Adams plus Ibaka/McGary/Collison with KD playing a little 4 too? I don't really get the point unless you're letting Kanter walk, which I like less.

[MoneyTalks41890]

So a four team deal hoping no one balks at the idea of giving OKC a backup C and let Kanter walk, got it. You're reaching a bit. And the need is at SG. They were going to match Kanter when they dealt for him. Moving those guys for cap was lowering the tax bill.

[HartfordWhalers]

So a four team deal hoping no one balks at the idea of giving OKC a backup C and let Kanter walk, got it. You're reaching a bit. And the need is at SG. They were going to match Kanter when they dealt for him. Moving those guys for cap was lowering the tax bill.

I'm really not reaching. Barnes was originally scheduled to go to OKC for christ sake. Waiting and combining already agreed to deals happens every year, and no team has backed out of a publicly reported agreed to deal that I know of.

The defensiveness in this thread is overwhelming. Yes, each of those vets could easily have been folded in. And yes, whatever it was, I think OKC was missing a move to add more talent and not just more health this offseason. Especially at SG...

[bondom34]

So a four team deal hoping no one balks at the idea of giving OKC a backup C and let Kanter walk, got it. You're reaching a bit. And the need is at SG. They were going to match Kanter when they dealt for him. Moving those guys for cap was lowering the tax bill.

I'm really not reaching. Barnes was originally scheduled to go to OKC for christ sake. Waiting and combining already agreed to deals happens every year, and no team has backed out of a publicly reported agreed to deal that I know of.

The defensiveness in this thread is overwhelming. Yes, each of those vets could easily have been folded in. And yes, whatever it was, I think OKC was missing a move to add more talent and not just more health this offseason. Especially at SG...

Barnes wasn't ever going to OKC.

And not defensive, but when the point of contention is "well they didn't do things that more than likely other teams wouldn't do" it seems like punishing someone for not doing the impossible. The SG position isn't dire to me, I like 2/3 of the players and Waiters expires next year. Roberson should play 15ish mpg, Morrow 20-25, and Westbrook at the 2 for the rest. Barnes wasn't moving the needle and has issues with Ibaka so he was likely off the table anyway.