Chuck Texas & PMOTT3's Early Off-Season Review: Milwaukee Bucks

[H2tObes]

Zaza was a starter and Ersan is a single player that has always been wildly inconsistent. Stats show that our bench was a lot better pre Knight trade and awful post Knight trade, simple as that. Ersan will be missed but we need to clear up more PT for our young star forwards at some point. Paying Ersan wasn't doing us that much good for what we're trying to accomplish. We replaced Zaza with a much better player. Dudley was only good for about 2 months of the season, he won't be missed very much.

Realistically, Ersan was the biggest loss. Not earth shattering though because we replaced him with Copeland and have Jabari waiting to take over

[AussieBuck]

Ersan got a lot of irrational hate from Bucks fans, he'll be missed.

[Dcebucks11]

Ersan got a lot of irrational hate from Bucks fans, he'll be missed.

So will Zaza, he played very well here. I don't mind the trade tho.. Let the younger guys do something.

[H2tObes]

I see it this way

Zaza's minutes are now Monroe's

Ersan's minutes are now Jabari's.

Both potential big upgrades. I think the Bucks will get better as the season progresses and the players begin to mesh. Expecting a rocky start especially if we start the season without Jabari

[Magic Giannison]

We both agreed he played more minutes post all star game above. You then claimed that his numbers were only better cause of those more minutes. Now when I point out that his stats were also better per minute, it is suddenly sure but he played less minutes? No.

He played more minutes post all star game:

Pre All star game: 17.5 mpg
Post All star game: 28.4 mpg.

What are actual easily verifiable stats suddenly in doubt today?

No, im saying that you cannot simply use compare it to the others that played much more than him ,its like taking O bryant per 36 and making him looking a good player when he actually isnt.
The per 36 for Ersan in this case is that .,it doesnt show the true picture. Also, defense.
The only thing you can take from this comparison you brought is that he was stable and close to same with his pre all star performance.
Sometimes the stats cannot show the whole picture now matter how much we wish them to, different stats can show different things depending on how we look at them, the +- is the best example of that.

Anyway my point was even Ersan per se but Zaza and Dudley ( especially Dudley ) as Ersan can be easily be excused for the Monroe sign.

P.S He also didnt play as many games pre all star due to some injuries.

The gap in his scoring efficiency is pretty huge. And he did it in more minutes. And the rebounding getting better was nice.

Seems to me that Zaza and Ersan both definitely played better post all star game, so when you say that the reason Milwaukee fell apart post All star break was those guys it just isn't true.

Then again, today is the day that actual data doesn't matter on this forum, so why not?

http://bkref.com/tiny/l4XFA
Yet it doesnt show against whom he played, who he guarded and many many other things that stats cannot simply explain.
According to the link above Ersan is abetter defender and rebounder than Giannis....


Sure they played better compared to themselves the thing is that we had no choice but to use them ( due to lack of players /injuries) .

It doesnt matter if your stats are good when at a critical time you make mistakes that cost the game or take bad shots like Zaza did.
It doesnt matter if you shoot and have 20 points if you play defense like crap and allow 30 to go through.
Something can be only witnessed by watching the games as stats do not cover all the aspects of it.

There are players that score better but that doesn't make them better than other players just because of that or how much more efficient they were in less time because the second player could contributed much more and his stats wont show it.

Anyway since the discussion is getting derailed and i dont wanna focus on Ersan but on the whole imagine is that Dudley not only was injured and we knew it but he also didn't perfoll well after his injury.

So, Dudley got traded to Wizzard , taking into accords his performance and injury we couldn't get anything besides that fake 2nd rounder.

Ersan made room for Monreo,agreed?

Zaza simply had no room in the rotation due to Monroe coming hence we didn't need him plus we clear more space,save money, give young players more playtime and give Zaza his wish to join the team he wants.


All in all the only bad trade that come is Vasquez because we actually gave assets to acquire him hence why it is the worse part of our off season and not Dudley,Zaza Ersan.
PMOTT3 gave us a D off season thats worse than Charlotte which i highly disagree ( as i initially stated)
Chuck even tho gave a better record to win but simply values Dudley higher hence is where we disagree.

[HartfordWhalers]

Ersan made room for Monreo,agreed?

Milwaukee had plenty of room to add Monroe without dumping anyone. But Ersan made it possible to add Vasquez when he was added.

The rest is silly. If you want to say Ersan was worse post all star game, it helps if he is you know worse. You want to show that, go for it. Stats say otherwise, but today is stat (and then some) free day.

[Magic Giannison]

Ersan made room for Monreo,agreed?

Milwaukee had plenty of room to add Monroe without dumping anyone. But Ersan made it possible to add Vasquez when he was added.

The rest is silly. If you want to say Ersan was worse post all star game, it helps if he is you know worse. You want to show that, go for it. Stats say otherwise, but today is stat (and then some) free day.

Again, you keep forgetting that having more minutes= more attempts= you can get better or worse depending on your %.
Hence why you saying that he got essentially improve dis wrong, as he got more minutes and more attempts but he remained stable as his pre all star games only thing he actually improved is his 3 pt % which i pointed out.

Ok then, Zaza made room for Monroe and Ersan made room for Jabari, better now ?
The hole thing i have been saying since couple of posts is that we will depend more on our starting 5 than doing the 12-14 man rotations and that these guys had no room in the team if we take their performance/contracts w/e you .


Ersan was a liability in defense, he was slow, getting caught on screens and so on.I am telling you this as someone that watched all Bucks games these season and not just basing it on stats.

Simply we do not need these players, why keep them ?

[HartfordWhalers]

http://bkref.com/tiny/l4XFA
Yet it doesnt show against whom he played, who he guarded and many many other things that stats cannot simply explain.
According to the link above Ersan is abetter defender and rebounder than Giannis....

Oh hell. I will respond to this inanity. But only because it is so successfully ridiculous.

Lets take a look at that link:

Giannis: 6.7 rebounds per game, 10.9 per 100 possessions, 12.2% Reb%,
Ersan: 4.8 rebounds per game, 10.7 per 100 possessions, 12.0% Reb%,


So, to review the link that is disproving stats because it shows Ginnis as a worse rebounder actually shows:
Giannis gets more rebounds any way you look at it.

For defense, it says:
Giannis: DWS: 4.0, DBPM: 2.1, 0.9 Steal per game (1.5% rate) 1.0 block per game (2.8% rate)
Ersan: DWS: 1.7, DBPM: -1.4, 0.6 Steal per game (1.4% rate) 0.3 block per game (1.2% rate)

So, to review the link that is disproving stats because it shows Ginnis as a worse defender actually shows:
Giannis is a better defender any way you look at it.

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TxFRgY46sJQ[/youtube]

[Magic Giannison]

http://bkref.com/tiny/l4XFA
Yet it doesnt show against whom he played, who he guarded and many many other things that stats cannot simply explain.
According to the link above Ersan is abetter defender and rebounder than Giannis....

Oh hell. I will respond to this inanity. But only because it is so successfully ridiculous.

Lets take a look at that link:

Giannis: 6.7 rebounds per game, 10.9 per 100 possessions, 12.2% Reb%,
Ersan: 4.8 rebounds per game, 10.7 per 100 possessions, 12.0% Reb%,


So, to review the link that is disproving stats because it shows Ginnis as a worse rebounder actually shows:
Giannis gets more rebounds any way you look at it.

For defense, it says:
Giannis: DWS: 4.0, DBPM: 2.1, 0.9 Steal per game (1.5% rate) 1.0 block per game (2.8% rate)
Ersan: DWS: 1.7, DBPM: -1.4, 0.6 Steal per game (1.4% rate) 0.3 block per game (1.2% rate)

So, to review the link that is disproving stats because it shows Ginnis as a worse defender actually shows:
Giannis is a better defender any way you look at it.

Il do you a favor and delete your childish video.

Again conveniently enough you either take my world out of context or nitpick when im trying to point you out that STATS do not matter as much you think they are and can be deceiving , period.
Take the per 100 poss as example and rebounds ( which you ignored)
Giannis 10.9
Ersna 10.7

This stat alone shows you that Ersan is almost as good rebounder as Giannis which is freaking miles wrong form the truth. It doesn't shows against who he was competing with for the rebounds and totally disregards the fact that Giannis got the double total rebounds of him.

Same for defensive rating,
Giannis 101 allowed
Ersna 103 allowed.
Which mean that Ersan allows only 2 more points but it doesn't show against who he is allowing this because its hella sure not the same guarding LJ and JD while guarding some random koko bloco guys that nobody knows him but we know for a sure that GIannis is BY FAR better defender than Ersan and BY FAR better rebounder.


See how easy the stats can be manipulated to the likes of anyone ? Understand why the previous per 36 is showing nothing and surely not the clear picture of a players performance ?

[HartfordWhalers]

http://bkref.com/tiny/l4XFA
Yet it doesnt show against whom he played, who he guarded and many many other things that stats cannot simply explain.
According to the link above Ersan is abetter defender and rebounder than Giannis....

Oh hell. I will respond to this inanity. But only because it is so successfully ridiculous.

Lets take a look at that link:

Giannis: 6.7 rebounds per game, 10.9 per 100 possessions, 12.2% Reb%,
Ersan: 4.8 rebounds per game, 10.7 per 100 possessions, 12.0% Reb%,


So, to review the link that is disproving stats because it shows Ginnis as a worse rebounder actually shows:
Giannis gets more rebounds any way you look at it.

For defense, it says:
Giannis: DWS: 4.0, DBPM: 2.1, 0.9 Steal per game (1.5% rate) 1.0 block per game (2.8% rate)
Ersan: DWS: 1.7, DBPM: -1.4, 0.6 Steal per game (1.4% rate) 0.3 block per game (1.2% rate)

So, to review the link that is disproving stats because it shows Ginnis as a worse defender actually shows:
Giannis is a better defender any way you look at it.

Il do you a favor and delete your childish video.

Again conveniently enough you either take my world out of context or nitpick when im trying to point you out that STATS do not matter as much you think they are and can be deceiving , period.
Take the per 100 poss as example and rebounds ( which you ignored)
Giannis 10.9
Ersna 10.7

This stat alone shows you that Ersan is almost as good rebounder as Giannis which is freaking miles wrong form the truth. It doesn't shows against who he was competing with for the rebounds and totally disregards the fact that Giannis got the double total rebounds of him.

Same for defensive rating,
Giannis 101 allowed
Ersna 103 allowed.
Which mean that Ersan allows only 2 more points but it doesn't show against who he is allowing this because its hella sure not the same guarding LJ and JD while guarding some random koko bloco guys that nobody knows him but we know for a sure that GIannis is BY FAR better defender than Ersan and BY FAR better rebounder.


See how easy the stats can be manipulated to the likes of anyone ? Understand why the previous per 36 is showing nothing and surely not the clear picture of a players performance ?

No. I see someone who's pants are on fire.

You said the link said one thing.

Literally every stat in it says the other.

Now you say look it shows how the stats can be manipulated.

Guess what? They weren't manipulated, you just said a statement that was factually inaccurate in every way and easily verified as such about them. Oops.

[HartfordWhalers]

And that is a great commercial.

[Magic Giannison]

Oh hell. I will respond to this inanity. But only because it is so successfully ridiculous.

Lets take a look at that link:

Giannis: 6.7 rebounds per game, 10.9 per 100 possessions, 12.2% Reb%,
Ersan: 4.8 rebounds per game, 10.7 per 100 possessions, 12.0% Reb%,


So, to review the link that is disproving stats because it shows Ginnis as a worse rebounder actually shows:
Giannis gets more rebounds any way you look at it.

For defense, it says:
Giannis: DWS: 4.0, DBPM: 2.1, 0.9 Steal per game (1.5% rate) 1.0 block per game (2.8% rate)
Ersan: DWS: 1.7, DBPM: -1.4, 0.6 Steal per game (1.4% rate) 0.3 block per game (1.2% rate)

So, to review the link that is disproving stats because it shows Ginnis as a worse defender actually shows:
Giannis is a better defender any way you look at it.

Il do you a favor and delete your childish video.

Again conveniently enough you either take my world out of context or nitpick when im trying to point you out that STATS do not matter as much you think they are and can be deceiving , period.
Take the per 100 poss as example and rebounds ( which you ignored)
Giannis 10.9
Ersna 10.7

This stat alone shows you that Ersan is almost as good rebounder as Giannis which is freaking miles wrong form the truth. It doesn't shows against who he was competing with for the rebounds and totally disregards the fact that Giannis got the double total rebounds of him.

Same for defensive rating,
Giannis 101 allowed
Ersna 103 allowed.
Which mean that Ersan allows only 2 more points but it doesn't show against who he is allowing this because its hella sure not the same guarding LJ and JD while guarding some random koko bloco guys that nobody knows him but we know for a sure that GIannis is BY FAR better defender than Ersan and BY FAR better rebounder.


See how easy the stats can be manipulated to the likes of anyone ? Understand why the previous per 36 is showing nothing and surely not the clear picture of a players performance ?

No. I see someone who's pants are on fire.

You said the link said one thing.

Literally every stat in it says the other.

Now you say look it shows how the stats can be manipulated.

Guess what? They weren't manipulated, you just lied about them. Oops.

Yes you ignored that i also rebounder, yet you ignored the per 100 poss of the link heck i even explained to you why and how but you still choose to see your wait.
Conveniently you choose to ignore all my points explaining why our off season moves arent as ridiculous as you say and how everything makes sense but yet again, you choose to ignore and focus on total pointless stuff.

[HartfordWhalers]

Il do you a favor and delete your childish video.

Again conveniently enough you either take my world out of context or nitpick when im trying to point you out that STATS do not matter as much you think they are and can be deceiving , period.
Take the per 100 poss as example and rebounds ( which you ignored)
Giannis 10.9
Ersna 10.7

This stat alone shows you that Ersan is almost as good rebounder as Giannis which is freaking miles wrong form the truth. It doesn't shows against who he was competing with for the rebounds and totally disregards the fact that Giannis got the double total rebounds of him.

Same for defensive rating,
Giannis 101 allowed
Ersna 103 allowed.
Which mean that Ersan allows only 2 more points but it doesn't show against who he is allowing this because its hella sure not the same guarding LJ and JD while guarding some random koko bloco guys that nobody knows him but we know for a sure that GIannis is BY FAR better defender than Ersan and BY FAR better rebounder.


See how easy the stats can be manipulated to the likes of anyone ? Understand why the previous per 36 is showing nothing and surely not the clear picture of a players performance ?

No. I see someone who's pants are on fire.

You said the link said one thing.

Literally every stat in it says the other.

Now you say look it shows how the stats can be manipulated.

Guess what? They weren't manipulated, you just lied about them. Oops.

Yes you ignored that i also rebounder, yet you ignored the per 100 poss of the link heck i even explained to you why and how but you still choose to see your wait.
Conveniently you choose to ignore all my points explaining why our off season moves arent as ridiculous as you say and how everything makes sense but yet again, you choose to ignore and focus on total pointless stuff.

I posted the per 100 possession rebounds. You should know that, you quoted it. It shows Ginnis as better rebounder. So when you say it is saying the opposite, you either have your chart upside down and cannot tell which number is bigger, or you are intentionally lying. I don't really care which, this is just amazingly absurd.

[Magic Giannison]

No. I see someone who's pants are on fire.

You said the link said one thing.

Literally every stat in it says the other.

Now you say look it shows how the stats can be manipulated.

Guess what? They weren't manipulated, you just lied about them. Oops.

Yes you ignored that i also rebounder, yet you ignored the per 100 poss of the link heck i even explained to you why and how but you still choose to see your wait.
Conveniently you choose to ignore all my points explaining why our off season moves arent as ridiculous as you say and how everything makes sense but yet again, you choose to ignore and focus on total pointless stuff.

I posted the per 100 possession rebounds. You should know that, you quoted it. It shows Ginnis as better rebounder. So when you say it is saying the opposite, you either have your chart upside down and cannot tell which number is bigger, or you are intentionally lying. I don't really care which, this is just amazingly absurd.

DUDE, for the god of love.
The difference the stats are showing in the 100 poss are nowhere near close to actually truth because Gianis is much more better rebounder that what it shows.How hard it is to understand ?

Instead of actually the actual point of this thread we talk about plus minus and other random crap which makes no sense or matters at all.

[Hawk Eye]

if you guys intend to keep this going then I'm going to need a bigger bowl of popcorn.

[Texas Chuck]

I see it this way

Zaza's minutes are now Monroe's

Ersan's minutes are now Jabari's.

Both potential big upgrades. I think the Bucks will get better as the season progresses and the players begin to mesh. Expecting a rocky start especially if we start the season without Jabari

Right, we all agree your starters got better with Monroe and Jabari in. Our point is simply comparing Zaza and Dudley to whomever takes roster spots 14 and 15 and saying the Bucks would be better with those 2 guys. Because you would still have Jabari and Monroe even if you kept those 2.

I'm not sure what's really difficult to see about this?

[Texas Chuck]

And one thing that's getting lost here is how high I have been on the Bucks for awhile now. I have been championing them and the Jazz for some time now on the forum. I love much of that roster and Kidd is the perfect coach. I really like this team right now and I think the future can be really bright if the PG position can be solved.

[nickhx2]

i just skimmed first page before i got to the suggestion about having each team's mod help do a write-up. while i can understand not wanting to do that for fear of lack of objectivity, each person's writeup is going to have some form of subjectivity no matter what, isn't it? people are allowed to agree or disagree regardless, so maybe just give them the chance? at any rate you'd still have 3 varying opinions to discuss, which is all we are really here for.

my one real suggestion next year (maybe can even start now): put a poll in each team's forums asking people to vote for whichever poster they want to give their review (alongside pmott and chuck). do it a week before you are ready to put your first review out for each team so they have time to get back to you.

so say you did it for the clips forum and people voted og15 (who tends to be one of our far more objective posters). he'd give you his review and the next time you put the clips review up it'd be "chuck's, pmott's and og's 3-part early offseason review: clippers"

would be fun, especially because it would encourage a lot of discussion and participation throughout each forum.

[Texas Chuck]

i just skimmed first page before i got to the suggestion about having each team's mod help do a write-up. while i can understand not wanting to do that for fear of lack of objectivity, each person's writeup is going to have some form of subjectivity no matter what, isn't it? people are allowed to agree or disagree regardless, so maybe just give them the chance? at any rate you'd still have 3 varying opinions to discuss, which is all we are really here for.

my one real suggestion next year (maybe can even start now): put a poll in each team's forums asking people to vote for whichever poster they want to give their review (alongside pmott and chuck). do it a week before you are ready to put your first review out for each team so they have time to get back to you.

so say you did it for the clips forum and people voted og15 (who tends to be one of our far more objective posters). he'd give you his review and the next time you put the clips review up it'd be "chuck's, pmott's and og's 3-part early offseason review: clippers"

would be fun, especially because it would encourage a lot of discussion and participation throughout each forum.

As I told Htobes I'm all for having whomever wants to do an off-season review to do so and if the two of you want to recruit a representative(mod or otherwise) from each forum I would do whatever I could as a Trade Board Mod to support the efforts. We simply didn't have the idea to do that. My point about objectivity was not that fans can't be objective about their own teams--obviously we have some terrific posters who can. But I think when he mentioned that he's only really interested in the opinions of Bucks fans, well I don't think that's going to provide him with nearly as objective of opinions as when neutral fans are involved.

This was not mean to be some big deal, official thing. Just an idea PMOTT3 had to fill some of the dead time on the forums and I thought it would be interesting and when he asked me to participate I was honored to do so. We certainly aren't claiming to be the most qualified or the final word on any of these and frankly I think I can speak for Preston as well that we are happy just to be starting some conversation about the off-season and let the discussion go where it will.

[nickhx2]

ah well i'm mostly new around here and i thought that this was one of the things you guys do every year, rather than a one time thing.

still, either way i think it's great for discussion whether it's 2 or 3 guys giving their opinions. i myself don't have any issue with two non-fans of a team giving their opinions and to me it's quite interesting to see what outside guys think. on that same token i think it'd be just as interesting for outside guys to see what a fan thinks too.

what you guys are doing is great whether you add on to it or don't. thanks, regardless.