PMOTT3 and Chuck Texas Early Off-Season Review: Boston Celtics

[Texas Chuck]

yeah Joe, I somehow forgot about Amir/ When healthy he's an average starter or near as.

[BleedGreen1989]

Well, I"m splitting hairs a bit, so excuse me for that, but, I was looking at this depth chart when I said that.

Tyler Zeller/Amir Johnson/Mickey
Sullinger/Olynyk/Lee
Crowder/Turner/Jerebko
Bradley/Young/Hunter
Smart/Thomas/Rozier

Tyler Zeller - yeah he could improve he's young, but to date hasn't shown to be a starter quality player.
Sullinger - I think it's pretty obvious he isn't a starter. YMMV.
Crowder - Never shown to be a starter.
Bradley - I guess he's starter quality. I just see him as more of a combo guard off the bench on a good team than a starter. YMMV.
Smart/Thomas - This position was the one position I was thinking of when I added 'almost' to my thought. Looks like starting quality to me.

I guess if you re-arrange the lineup a bit to put Amir and Lee in there it looks like they have more starters, I was just going by this depth chart is all.

Zeller I think is similar to robin Lopez, good enough to start adequately if needed or a really good back up. And he's prbably coming off the bench this year.

I don't get why people don't see sully as a good player.

Crowder doesn't have a ton of minutes logged, but he seems like a very solid rotation player.

Absolutely...

I mean, even a horribly out of shape Sullinger was 14th in scoring, 13th in double doubles, 19th in PER and 11th in rebounding amongst PF's.

Sullinger is at worst an average starter I'd say.

[Texas Chuck]

Absolutely...

I mean, even a horribly out of shape Sullinger was 14th in scoring, 13th in double doubles, 19th in PER and 11th in rebounding amongst PF's.

Sullinger is at worst an average starter I'd say.

Defense. Defense is arguably more important from both big positions and Sully isn't good defensively. So if his offensive numbers show him to be about middle of the pack then his defense would make him a subpar starter.

[165bows]

Absolutely...

I mean, even a horribly out of shape Sullinger was 14th in scoring, 13th in double doubles, 19th in PER and 11th in rebounding amongst PF's.

Sullinger is at worst an average starter I'd say.

Defense. Defense is arguably more important from both big positions and Sully isn't good defensively. So if his offensive numbers show him to be about middle of the pack then his defense would make him a subpar starter.

That idea has become a bit overrated IMO. He's not some terrible defender, he's basically at worst near average.

[Golabki]

Absolutely...

I mean, even a horribly out of shape Sullinger was 14th in scoring, 13th in double doubles, 19th in PER and 11th in rebounding amongst PF's.

Sullinger is at worst an average starter I'd say.

Defense. Defense is arguably more important from both big positions and Sully isn't good defensively. So if his offensive numbers show him to be about middle of the pack then his defense would make him a subpar starter.

I think Sully's offense is a better than middle of the pack, but he's addmittedly still developing.

Also, I don't think his defense is that bad. I'm not going to say that Sully was always great when the Celtics were sleep walking through 2014, but in the Cavs series in the playoffs looked like the best defensive big on the roster, by far (faint praise). Sully's defensive numbers rate him as medicore... I think he'll be an average defender this year. Good rebounder, good post defender, decent team defender inside and adaquate in pick and role and perimeter D.

[Texas Chuck]

Absolutely...

I mean, even a horribly out of shape Sullinger was 14th in scoring, 13th in double doubles, 19th in PER and 11th in rebounding amongst PF's.

Sullinger is at worst an average starter I'd say.

Defense. Defense is arguably more important from both big positions and Sully isn't good defensively. So if his offensive numbers show him to be about middle of the pack then his defense would make him a subpar starter.

That idea has become a bit overrated IMO. He's not some terrible defender, he's basically at worst near average.

Ok fair enough. I guess then we have to decide if a player who is average at both ends translates into an average player--or if players who are more valuable at one end but less on the other are more valuable pushing him down a bit. I would tend to think the latter. Seems like you could cover for their weakness at one end enough to get more positive impact from the side they are great at. Like I'd call Amir Johnson a better player right now for instance.

But others may feel differently--and this may be more of a conversation for the PC board, but I don't mind a small sidebar discussion here since its interesting.

[165bows]

Defense. Defense is arguably more important from both big positions and Sully isn't good defensively. So if his offensive numbers show him to be about middle of the pack then his defense would make him a subpar starter.

That idea has become a bit overrated IMO. He's not some terrible defender, he's basically at worst near average.

Ok fair enough. I guess then we have to decide if a player who is average at both ends translates into an average player--or if players who are more valuable at one end but less on the other are more valuable pushing him down a bit. I would tend to think the latter. Seems like you could cover for their weakness at one end enough to get more positive impact from the side they are great at. Like I'd call Amir Johnson a better player right now for instance.

But others may feel differently--and this may be more of a conversation for the PC board, but I don't mind a small sidebar discussion here since its interesting.

I'd lean towards the former, as in Zach Lowe's article about versatile guys and the value of having a 'B' grade across the skill-set board.

Sullinger isn't quite what he was talking there about on defense, but I'd again argue his deficiencies are exaggerated.

Depends on team fit as well IMO. Does a high level skill fit while a weakness is mitigated? Ie, the featured offense guy who can't play D?

Or is the weakness something that brings the whole team down? Ie, poor shooter ruining offensive spacing, bad defender getting picked on breaking down the D, etc.

But I'd agree Amir is likely their best night in night out big so far. I think Sullinger can be better and stake that claim but he's got to put all the pieces together.

This is probably one of the few teams that may not be done making moves though.

[BleedGreen1989]

That idea has become a bit overrated IMO. He's not some terrible defender, he's basically at worst near average.

Ok fair enough. I guess then we have to decide if a player who is average at both ends translates into an average player--or if players who are more valuable at one end but less on the other are more valuable pushing him down a bit. I would tend to think the latter. Seems like you could cover for their weakness at one end enough to get more positive impact from the side they are great at. Like I'd call Amir Johnson a better player right now for instance.

But others may feel differently--and this may be more of a conversation for the PC board, but I don't mind a small sidebar discussion here since its interesting.

Depends on team fit as well IMO. Does a high level skill fit while a weakness is mitigated? Ie, the featured offense guy who can't play D?

This point is drastically overlooked by how "good" a player is as well in general (I'm guilty).

Emphasized in the front court more so i think. Sullinger can be productive in front of Tyler Zeller, but what if he was playing in front of somebody like Tyson Chandler, Jokiam Noah, or Timofey Mozgov? Guys like Nikola Vucevic, Greg Monroe, Jahil Okafor, etc are all players who will shine brighter with a better fit for example.

[Patsfan1081]

Absolutely...

I mean, even a horribly out of shape Sullinger was 14th in scoring, 13th in double doubles, 19th in PER and 11th in rebounding amongst PF's.

Sullinger is at worst an average starter I'd say.

Defense. Defense is arguably more important from both big positions and Sully isn't good defensively. So if his offensive numbers show him to be about middle of the pack then his defense would make him a subpar starter.

I think his production varies with his conditioning. sullinger looked really good his soph year. I mean he was tied for sixth in the league for offensive rebounds in only his second year in the league, he was a very good rebounder then when he wasn't chucking up threes, and better offensively when his three point % wasn't dragging his efficianty down. With his defense I agree he's horrible on the switch, a lot of it is laziness, but overall his rating isn't bad. Man to man he doesn't get pushed around and does a decent job. A lot of people just assume he's terrible on defense because of his conditioning. This should be a telling year for him with his contract coming up and really hearing it from the front office. He's appeared to have really slimmed down, but I'm not holding my breath.