NOP/PHI/ORL/PHO

[tsmith]

Who the heck is voting for Phoenix getting the best deal here?

Booker for #1? No thanks, that is a no-brainer for Phoenix. Booker already is a potential franchise player there is no need to give that up to roll the dice once more.

Warren for #11? Again easy pass.. With Warren you have a rookie from 2014 picked in the lottery that turned out well. 51/40/79 and already obe of the top bench scorers in the league. The likelihood of finding better at #11 is low and there is no need to gamble again for Phoenix.

That leaves trading 3 for 22 which does not need explanation.

Plus Phoenix already has #3, 13, 28, 33. Losing Booker, Warren and #3 to change that to 1,11,13,22,28,33 is beyond stupid.

You're the first (and maybe last) person I have seen call Booker a potential franchise player. He's a great shooter, and that's valuable. But his athleticism, explosiveness, handles, defense, and passing are limited. He is very young and can improve over time, for sure, but I'd say his ceiling is something like Klay Thompson. Maybe.

None of that is limited.

He is very quick and posted an all time great lane agility test at the combine.
His passing and handles are great for a shooting guard.

Stop talking about players that you obviously dont even watch.

And if you paid attention you would realize that most Suns fan see him as our franchise player to be already. He is going nowhere.

Devin Booker is far more than a shooter.

His ceiling is most definitely not Klay Thompson.

Are you claiming that Devin Booker's ceiling is higher than Klay Thompson?

[Qwigglez]

You're the first (and maybe last) person I have seen call Booker a potential franchise player. He's a great shooter, and that's valuable. But his athleticism, explosiveness, handles, defense, and passing are limited. He is very young and can improve over time, for sure, but I'd say his ceiling is something like Klay Thompson. Maybe.

None of that is limited.

He is very quick and posted an all time great lane agility test at the combine.
His passing and handles are great for a shooting guard.

Stop talking about players that you obviously dont even watch.

And if you paid attention you would realize that most Suns fan see him as our franchise player to be already. He is going nowhere.

Devin Booker is far more than a shooter.

His ceiling is most definitely not Klay Thompson.

Are you claiming that Devin Booker's ceiling is higher than Klay Thompson?

More of a Brandon Roy than Klay Thompson.

[Amareca]

Ceiling describes someones limit and Bookers limit certainly is not Klay Thompson.

With what Booker has already shown it is plain stupid to put a ceiling on him.

And yeah his game has a lot more Ray Allen/Brandon Roy in it. Klay is not even a good comparison stylistically. The common theme is just that they are both light skinned and great shooters.

Booker has a lot of playmaking skills that he uses and shows consistently.

[Amareca]

Booker is worth much more than Oladipo.

Besides that he is simply a better talent, he hast the most desirable skills, does not turn 20 until next season and is on the first year of his rookie deal.

Oladipo on the other hand will get paid soon.

Knight or Oladipo would be a better question. I'd take Knight here since they are statisticslly very close and Knight is just a year older and likely signed for less than what Oladipo will ask.

I agree that Booker is worth more tna Dipo at this point, but Dipo is worth WAAAAY more than Knight. I feel like the Dipo hate is getting a bit out of control.

Oh, I don't think it is at all a question. I would take Oladipo way way over Knight. Then again, I also don't think Booker is worth way more than Simmons.

Alright I will bite

Knight 23yrs old 17ppg 5.2apg 3.9rpg 1.4spg 42.2%fg 38.9%3s
Oladipo 23yrs old 15ppg 3.9apg 4.9rpg 1.4spg 42%fg 33.3%3s

Knight 103ortg 104drtg
Oladipo 103ortg 105drtg

Knight 17.1 per
Oladipo 15.7 per

Knight 0.106 Ws/48
Oladipo 0.088 ws/48

But sure Oladipo is way way more valueable. /s

This is not even taking into account that Oladipos extension is almost certainly going to be more expensive than Knight.

Oladipo is only 1 year younger than Knight. By the time Knight returns people will have convincef themselves that he is worse than Jimmer and that it was a conspiracy that he was almost an allstar last year.

This year Knight averaged 20/5/5 21PER shooting over 40% from 3 as a shooting guard or shared point guard. His numbers took a nose dive when he was forced into the role to carry the team as the #1 option and PG after Bledsoe went down.

Also Knight is an incredible teammate, super hard worker. The best case for Phoenix would be if Knight accepts playing off the bench. He would still play the same minutes and play his minutes with Booker and Bledsoe.

[HartfordWhalers]

I agree that Booker is worth more tna Dipo at this point, but Dipo is worth WAAAAY more than Knight. I feel like the Dipo hate is getting a bit out of control.

Oh, I don't think it is at all a question. I would take Oladipo way way over Knight. Then again, I also don't think Booker is worth way more than Simmons.

Alright I will bite

Knight 23yrs old 17ppg 5.2apg 3.9rpg 1.4spg 42.2%fg 38.9%3s
Oladipo 23yrs old 15ppg 3.9apg 4.9rpg 1.4spg 42%fg 33.3%3s

Knight 103ortg 104drtg
Oladipo 103ortg 105drtg

Knight 17.1 per
Oladipo 15.7 per

Knight 0.106 Ws/48
Oladipo 0.088 ws/48

But sure Oladipo is way way more valueable. /s

This is not even taking into account that Oladipos extension is almost certainly going to be more expensive than Knight.

Oladipo is only 1 year younger than Knight. By the time Knight returns people will have convincef themselves that he is worse than Jimmer and that it was a conspiracy that he was almost an allstar last year.

This year Knight averaged 20/5/5 21PER shooting over 40% from 3 as a shooting guard or shared point guard. His numbers took a nose dive when he was forced into the role to carry the team as the #1 option and PG after Bledsoe went down.

Also Knight is an incredible teammate, super hard worker. The best case for Phoenix would be if Knight accepts playing off the bench. He would still play the same minutes and play his minutes with Booker and Bledsoe.

Oladipo is a way better defender, and offensively Knight really doesn't give much more:


Career:

Knight career 14.4 per
Oladipo career 15.0 per

Knight career 52.2% TS%
Oladipo career 52.1% TS%

Knight career 101ortg 110drtg
Oladipo 99 ortg 106 drtg

Knight career -0.9 BPM
Oladipo career 0.0 BPM


This year:

Knight career 15.0 per
Oladipo career 15.7 per

Knight career 52.2% TS%
Oladipo career 52.1% TS%

Knight career 100 ortg 111drtg
Oladipo 103 ortg 105 drtg

Knight career -0.4 BPM
Oladipo career 1.0 BPM

Course, instead of looking at career versus career or this year versus this year you preferred comparing Knights one break out year last year. And are using stats that are mostly derived from team play (o/d ratings and win shares).

Reminder, here is what those stats look like with in season splits for that year for Knight:

***Knight 103ortg 104drtg***
breaks down to:
Milwaukee: 105ortg 103drtg
Phoenix: 97ortg 112drtg
(Phoenix this year: 100 ortg 111drtg)

So, he's a net negative 12 in rating since being on Phoenix.

***Knight 0.106 Ws/48***
breaks down to:
Milwaukee: .124 Ws/48
Phoenix: .016
(Phoenix this year: .037)

So, he's a grand total of a .033 Ws/48 since being on Phoenix

Knights team based stats being boosted by Milwaukee's success looks even worse when you consider that he had the worst on-off among Milwaukee starters by far, and maybe didn't do as much of the contributing to that team success as he did benefitting from it.

[Amareca]

Career stats are ridiculous and have no meaning considering you are comparing a 3yr player vs a 5yr player and Knight being way younger as a rookie. Oladipo spent 3yrs in Indiana before going to the NBA. His career stats would look way **** if he started playing in the league at 19.

Oladipo's defense prowess is a myth. His drtg is in line with his teams season average, while his team plays better offense when he is not playing.

Knights stats this season are misleading he had to change positions and roles midseason and is injured.

Still Knights stats are better on the season than Oladipo. Shooting stats are identical while Knight averages 20/4/5

Knight in OCT 20/5/4 50fg 39%3
Knight in NOV 22/4/6 43%fg 40%3
Bledsoe goed down in DEC, Knight has to play PG and be the #1 scorer - Hornacek wanted knight to take a lot of shots and carry the team
Knight in DEC 17/3/5 39%fg 28%3
Knight in January 21/4/5 44%fg 30%3

Some perspective is helpful. Knight had a very good season until Bledsoe went down.
Knights numbers fell from being the #1 option and PG at the same time.

Oladipo is never facing that focus from a defense because he has never been a #1 option.

You bring up winshares and team ratings from this season where Phoenix is dysfunctional with the top 4 players coming into the season injured (Bledsoe, Knight, Warren) or were dogging it (Morris), assistant coaches fired and head coach without a gameplan being fired. Look at the improvement since Watson took the reigns, Hornacek had them playing AAU offense without a plan.

[HartfordWhalers]

You bring up winshares and team ratings from this season where Phoenix is dysfunctional with the top 4 players coming into the season injured (Bledsoe, Knight, Warren) or were dogging it (Morris), assistant coaches fired and head coach without a gameplan being fired.

To be fair, you brought up win shares as a serious argument between the two players. And then skipped career numbers, skipped this year numbers, and cherry picked the one time Knight was on a good team.

In contrast, I explicitly pointed out how it is team dependent:

And are using stats that are mostly derived from team play (o/d ratings and win shares).

So, if you now (that its a negative on Knight) want to lecture someone on how it is team dependent, I would start with yourself.

Oladipo's defense prowess is a myth. His drtg is in line with his teams season average, while his team plays better offense when he is not playing.

It is not that I don't trust you, but here is the Magic's ratings with and without Oladipo:
Offense with Oladipo: 102.9
Offense without Oladipo: 98.9

[Golabki]

Oh, I don't think it is at all a question. I would take Oladipo way way over Knight. Then again, I also don't think Booker is worth way more than Simmons.

Alright I will bite

Knight 23yrs old 17ppg 5.2apg 3.9rpg 1.4spg 42.2%fg 38.9%3s
Oladipo 23yrs old 15ppg 3.9apg 4.9rpg 1.4spg 42%fg 33.3%3s

Knight 103ortg 104drtg
Oladipo 103ortg 105drtg

Knight 17.1 per
Oladipo 15.7 per

Knight 0.106 Ws/48
Oladipo 0.088 ws/48

But sure Oladipo is way way more valueable. /s

This is not even taking into account that Oladipos extension is almost certainly going to be more expensive than Knight.

Oladipo is only 1 year younger than Knight. By the time Knight returns people will have convincef themselves that he is worse than Jimmer and that it was a conspiracy that he was almost an allstar last year.

This year Knight averaged 20/5/5 21PER shooting over 40% from 3 as a shooting guard or shared point guard. His numbers took a nose dive when he was forced into the role to carry the team as the #1 option and PG after Bledsoe went down.

Also Knight is an incredible teammate, super hard worker. The best case for Phoenix would be if Knight accepts playing off the bench. He would still play the same minutes and play his minutes with Booker and Bledsoe.

Oladipo is a way better defender, and offensively Knight really doesn't give much more:


Career:

Knight career 14.4 per
Oladipo career 15.0 per

Knight career 52.2% TS%
Oladipo career 52.1% TS%

Knight career 101ortg 110drtg
Oladipo 99 ortg 106 drtg

Knight career -0.9 BPM
Oladipo career 0.0 BPM


This year:

Knight career 15.0 per
Oladipo career 15.7 per

Knight career 52.2% TS%
Oladipo career 52.1% TS%

Knight career 100 ortg 111drtg
Oladipo 103 ortg 105 drtg

Knight career -0.4 BPM
Oladipo career 1.0 BPM

Course, instead of looking at career versus career or this year versus this year you preferred comparing Knights one break out year last year. And are using stats that are mostly derived from team play (o/d ratings and win shares).

Reminder, here is what those stats look like with in season splits for that year for Knight:

***Knight 103ortg 104drtg***
breaks down to:
Milwaukee: 105ortg 103drtg
Phoenix: 97ortg 112drtg
(Phoenix this year: 100 ortg 111drtg)

So, he's a net negative 12 in rating since being on Phoenix.

***Knight 0.106 Ws/48***
breaks down to:
Milwaukee: .124 Ws/48
Phoenix: .016
(Phoenix this year: .037)

So, he's a grand total of a .033 Ws/48 since being on Phoenix

Knights team based stats being boosted by Milwaukee's success looks even worse when you consider that he had the worst on-off among Milwaukee starters by far, and maybe didn't do as much of the contributing to that team success as he did benefitting from it.

And RPM has dipo at +2 and knight at -2