I can't believe I'm doing this:Irving to Utah - Cavs/Suns/Jazz

[gom]

Chris Paul is an incredible player. With LeBron James they would form a furious driving team that would be fun to watch. I like your trade for all 3 teams (though I think that it's light from Cleveland's perspective). I did something similar with the post I just made, but tried to be more realistic about the costs. I'm sure many will disagree. Please share your thoughts.

http://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=1451023

[bondom34]

The eye test doesn't exist at all. If it does, watch game 3 without the scoreboard and tell me the score after the game. That's what your eye tells you.

You need to see a player somewhat, but ultimately what counts is scoreboard, and however you get the job done doesn't matter.

Let's take a second and think that through. You can easily infer the "score" (i.e. the differential) from body language. Particularly at the end of the game.

Going a bit deeper here - the scoreboard is the result but when you evaluate someone the result is not the most important thing IMO. I'm more interested to see if they are doing the "right" things. You can get a great result but the method in which you obtained that result is not repeatable it's not that interesting.

I think if we were able to force teams to answer how they evaluate players I think we would find every single team in the league primarily relies on expert opinions based off observations of tape and/or live performance which are likely augmented by statistics. What is the former if not the eye test?

I think that teams evaluate players based on what they can and can't do to positively impact a game, or the scoreboard. Which is not the eye test. The eye test tells me for example Irving is a marvelously talented player. The stats don't agree at all.

And the scoreboard is the result, and its a results based game. You can have any amount of ability, but if you don't increase odds of winning, it doesn't matter.

[Texas Chuck]

uh Chris Paul is still an incredible player. I can't honestly believe this continues to be a debate on this board. Of course this board tends to fetishize youth over impact and is irrationally terrified of contracts with less than 3 years remaining on them.

I don't like the OP for Cleveland as I think Kyrie is a better player and Bledsoe's injury history scares me. I'd cut Phoenix out and take Hayward and re-sign Delly.

[QRich3]

Heh I'm glad bondom is here to answer everything exactly the way I would, but in a more articulated way

I think both trades in the OP are fair, I actually think Hayward is a better player than Irving and a guy that you can better fit on almost any team. The Bledsoe trade, it'd be fair if Bled had healthy knees, but as is it's pretty risky from the Cavs' part, so I probably wouldn't do it if I were them.

Re: the Paul-Irving situation, the whole premise is flawed because without Paul, the Clippers stop being any sort of semi-serious threat to go deep in the post-season. It doesn't matter how much older he is, or how long he'll play, without him the title window is gone, and it likely doesn't come back until Irving is retired, if it ever does. Kyrie is never coming close to 33-year-old Paul's level of impact. If you wanna keep insisting on youth, I have a really young Austin Rivers to trade for your team's best role player.

I definitely agree he's much smarter a player at this stage of his career and basically maximizes what he has. But his impact on offense was just greater during his peak athleticism days. He doesn't put the same pressure on a defense like he used to. Its the same as we're seeing with LeBron. They will still get their 20-25 points but its not quite the same. No need to double or even adjust the defense much.

So, I guess you are impressed by nice crossovers and highlight plays, cause even without his young-self speed, he absolutely puts more pressure on the defense than he did in his NO years. Whether it's the threat of him taking one of his infallible midrange shots, or the threat of feeding Jordan for a lob, or feeding Redick for an open weakside 3, or whatever, he bends the defense at will, in a way that young Paul couldn't do. He's been improving every year since he came here and he's enough to carry nearly any team to a top offense by himself. He just did by dragging Luc Mbah A Moute and the corpse of Paul Pierce to a top 6 offense.

If CP3 has a chance to play with Lebron he will take it, sorry.

They are best friends, take family vacations together

He could privately approach Doc for a trade or make it public that he wants out and only will report to the Cavs

No team would give up anything for a one year rental for him

Not saying that CP3 is getting too old that Kyrie is better im saying that CP3 wants to play with Lebron and only has one year left on his deal

Maybe this doesnt go down but one thing is for sure, Lebron is taking a 1 year deal so he can take a cut the following year to recruit Paul. Clippers wont have any leverage except for an extra year on his next deal and CP3 could give two **** about that

Heh, we remember that song from 4 years ago, when he was best friends with Melo and was surely about force a trade to the Knicks (he made a toast!!), and then he'd surely want to play with Howard and he'd leave in free agency to the Hawks, and I don't remember how many other reasons he'd never re-sign with the Clippers. If I'm honest, I think he's more likely to take a paycut next summer to get some help here, than to go chasing a ring with Lebron.

[AingesBurner]

Worse, he relies more on athleticism and has 0 defensive and floor general ability.

Good point, Irving is Australian right?


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I think so, but not sure where you're going with this.

So I would imagine he and Exum have played together at some point and should have some chemistry.

[bondom34]

Good point, Irving is Australian right?


Sent from my iPhone using RealGM Forums

I think so, but not sure where you're going with this.

So I would imagine he and Exum have played together at some point and should have some chemistry.

Ah, that makes sense! Possible.

[Texas Chuck]

Kyrie was born in Australia but grew up in New Jersey and he's been part of team USA. Really doubt he and Exum have chemistry or have played together.

[AingesBurner]

Kyrie was born in Australia but grew up in New Jersey and he's been part of team USA. Really doubt he and Exum have chemistry or have played together.

I thought he tried out for team Australia?

[Texas Chuck]

Kyrie was born in Australia but grew up in New Jersey and he's been part of team USA. Really doubt he and Exum have chemistry or have played together.

I thought he tried out for team Australia?

IDK about that---obviously he'd have been a lock if he went that direction. But he was tournament MVP in the World Championships one year for Team USA. I want to say 2014? But don't quote me on the year.

[AingesBurner]

Kyrie was born in Australia but grew up in New Jersey and he's been part of team USA. Really doubt he and Exum have chemistry or have played together.

I thought he tried out for team Australia?

IDK about that---obviously he'd have been a lock if he went that direction. But he was tournament MVP in the World Championships one year for Team USA. I want to say 2014? But don't quote me on the year.

Looked it up, it was rumored he was looking at playing for Team Australia but decided against it.

[Trader_Joe]

Phoenix needs to add more here and send it to the Cavs.
Bledsoe is a good player but his injuries lower his value severely, especially here in comparison it Irving.

[rsavaj]

Phoenix needs to add more here and send it to the Cavs.
Bledsoe is a good player but his injuries lower his value severely, especially here in comparison it Irving.

They wouldn't give up guys like Booker/Warren or picks 4/13, but they could send the Cavs their own pick back(which they own via Boston from the IT trade), add a prospect like Archie Goodwin, or add vets like PJ Tucker, Tyson Chandler, Ronnie Price, etc for depth.

[franktony]

Irving has more value than both Bledsoe and Hayward.

Hayward is the better player here, but the trade needs to consider age (Irving beats both), contract situation (Irving beats Hayward who's an expiring about to cash a massive max contract next season) and injury (Bledsoe has no meniscus in 1 knee).

[Laimbeer]

If I'm the Cavs I cut out Phoenix. The Jazz need to give more, though.

[AingesBurner]

If I'm the Cavs I cut out Phoenix. The Jazz need to give more, though.

The #12 and choice of the GSW or OKC 1st.

[UTJazzFan_Echo1]

I'm not sure I do this if I'm the Jazz.

Like the Jazz organization, I have tons of faith in Exum's future as our point guard. I also think the chemistry and fit with Hayward in Utah is fantastic and he's the central piece to our team right now. I'm not sure if I'm willing to blow that up just yet and I'm not sold on Kyrie staying here in Utah after his deal is up. I also don't think Utah nets Kyrie for just Hayward and I'm not a fan of adding more to the pot to sweeten the deal.

I'm sure we'd take a good look at bringing Kyrie to Utah but I just don't know if that's the right move.

[bleeds_purple]

So, I guess you are impressed by nice crossovers and highlight plays, cause even without his young-self speed, he absolutely puts more pressure on the defense than he did in his NO years. Whether it's the threat of him taking one of his infallible midrange shots, or the threat of feeding Jordan for a lob, or feeding Redick for an open weakside 3, or whatever, he bends the defense at will, in a way that young Paul couldn't do. He's been improving every year since he came here and he's enough to carry nearly any team to a top offense by himself. He just did by dragging Luc Mbah A Moute and the corpse of Paul Pierce to a top 6 offense.

I actually despise the flashy playstyles ala Crawford or Irving.

Don't misinterpret what I'm saying. CP3 is a great great player but he's simply on the decline. These things are not mutually exclusive. Moreover, I wouldn't trade CP3 for Irving in a million years. They aren't even in the same conversation as far as I'm concerned. If you want to compare Irving to a player on the Clippers its Crawford not Paul.

When I watch him play now compared to his New Orleans days I don't see him drawing doubles and putting as much pressure on the defense. Now he just makes the perfectly decisions all the time and fits in seamlessly while keeping his guys involved. But he doesn't dominate the game the same way. I compare it to LeBron. LeBron no longer is able to dominate with scoring as in years past.

[bleeds_purple]

I think that teams evaluate players based on what they can and can't do to positively impact a game, or the scoreboard. Which is not the eye test. The eye test tells me for example Irving is a marvelously talented player. The stats don't agree at all.

And the scoreboard is the result, and its a results based game. You can have any amount of ability, but if you don't increase odds of winning, it doesn't matter.

The notion that someone watching the game cannot watch it with a level of sophistication to discern style over substance is a rather silly statement to make.

Regarding results you hear coaches (e.g. JVG) talk about this all the time they don't care if the shot goes in as long as the offense is running correctly and the right shot was taken. They care more about the process and the system than the ultimate result. Obviously, at the end of the day the result is all that matters but the idea is to focus on what you can control so that better results are obtained.

[bleeds_purple]

uh Chris Paul is still an incredible player. I can't honestly believe this continues to be a debate on this board. Of course this board tends to fetishize youth over impact and is irrationally terrified of contracts with less than 3 years remaining on them.

I don't like the OP for Cleveland as I think Kyrie is a better player and Bledsoe's injury history scares me. I'd cut Phoenix out and take Hayward and re-sign Delly.

Never said he wasn't. He's just not as incredible as previous. If we say LeBron has declined from his peak does that necessarily mean we are saying he's no longer incredible?

I actually think this board fetishizes statistics as well. Many of the posters seem to believe the whole game can be boiled down to numbers. I couldn't disagree more.

[jbk1234]

The Cavs are in luxury-tax hell and I can't see them taking on Bledsoe's contract until he's proven he's healthy and back to form.