Orlando early offseason in review (HW/bondom34/dbrandon/Smitty731/HowardMass)

[wise1-2]

To be fair all those head scratching moves usually work out well for them.

Huh?

Four straight years in last place in the Southeast Division...... and their moves have been working well? I guess we all have our own views on what 'well' means. Good Luck!

Are you really that confused? Your word of the day is "rebuild". Look it up, and try to use it in a sentence.

[wise1-2]

Spoiler:

Orlando won 35 games last year on a team that imploded and had no post defense. Add a top-6 coach and post defense and we gain 3 wins?

You are approaching how adding wins works. Did Orlando get better? Certainly.
But look who else got better.
Boston added a #3 pick and Al Horford, a better player than Ibaka, and they have a better coach already.
Milwaukee will have Parker all season, and him, Middleton, Giannis will all be better, while adding depth across the board.
The Knicks added Derrick Rose, Brandon Jennings, Courtney Lee, Joakim Noah; basically a ton of vets.
The Wizards will be a better team, and if Beal can stay healthy they will likely be a playoff team.
Chicago added Wade and Rondo. You can question the fit, but both of those players would arguable the best play on the Magic, definitely both in the top 3 for the Magic, and they still have Butler, Robin Lopez, and other solid role players.
Pacers are much improved, and I expect them to be the 2nd best team in the East.
The Hornets won 48 games last year and didn't lose anyone worth mentioning, while Kemba is entering his prime and if MKG is healthy that is an addition in itself, to a 48 win team.
The Hawks added Howard, a better player than Horford (though Magic fans will disagree, he is atleast a better fit next to Millsap). They will win around 45-50 games.
The Heat will be worse, but if Bosh can stay healthy they will be around a 40-45 win team again.
The Raptors didn't get worse, and it will be fun to see how Lowry/DD improve while on the Olympic team.
Then the Cavs, yeah.

Who are the better than without a doubt? 76ers and Nets without a doubt, but remember, they improved as well.
Who are they in the same boat as? Bucks, Wizards, Knicks, Heat.
Who are they worse than? Cavs, Bulls, Raptors, Hawks, Celtics, Hornets, Pacers, Pistons, Bulls.

Sure, an argument could be made that they are in the same tier as the Pistons, but the point stands that they aren't a top 5 team, and I don't even have them as a top 8 team. They will likely be fighting for the playoffs and they might make it if some team has an unfortunate injurt to a key piece.

Agree with this post completely. But a little less neutral/optimistic

I don't understand how Orlando can be viewed as a playoff team.

I think Cavs, Raptors, Celtics, Pacers, Pistons, Bucks, Atlanta, Bulls are just above the other teams

I have Orlando with Charlotte, NY, Miami and Washington as those teams hoping on of the better teams slips up.

NY/Washington have huge questions with Rose/Beal. Charlotte imo is going to feel the loss of Al, Lee, Lin which will drop them down to this group of teams.. And Miami, Bosh's questions drop them to this group.

I think those four teams are above Orlando if their "if's" go through, but Orlando could say the same. I just feel safer betting on Wall and Melo.

And hoping Gordon goes even with Parker, just not fair to AG.

considering back up centres are getting paid 15 mill/yr.

Monroe, Biyombo, and Ian?

Mozgov is making 16 mill/yr, and I'd take biyombo over him. Also I think you're underestimating AG.

[RexRyan]

To be fair all those head scratching moves usually work out well for them.

Huh?

Four straight years in last place in the Southeast Division...... and their moves have been working well? I guess we all have our own views on what 'well' means. Good Luck!

Are you really that confused? Your word of the day is "rebuild". Look it up, and try to use it in a sentence.

Yep..... when you make it personal and respond by spinning, the case is closed. Game, Set, Match!

[wise1-2]

Huh?

Four straight years in last place in the Southeast Division...... and their moves have been working well? I guess we all have our own views on what 'well' means. Good Luck!

Are you really that confused? Your word of the day is "rebuild". Look it up, and try to use it in a sentence.

Yep..... when you make it personal and respond by spinning, the case is closed. Game, Set, Match!

Obviously there was some baiting/patronizing in your post too. I just responded in a similar manner. My point is clear though.

[RexRyan]

Are you really that confused? Your word of the day is "rebuild". Look it up, and try to use it in a sentence.

Yep..... when you make it personal and respond by spinning, the case is closed. Game, Set, Match!

Obviously there was some baiting/patronizing in your post too. I just responded in a similar manner. My point is clear though.

I took care of it, thanks.

[jayjaysee]

Mozgov is making 16 mill/yr, and I'd take biyombo over him. Also I think you're underestimating AG.

Mozgov is unfortunately a starting center. And to add, I still expect Monroe to be a starting center somewhere in the league this season, be it Houston/Charlotte... But you can add Kanter to take his spot to be fair, as I doubt OKC starts Adams/Kanter

And Biyombo is a solid risk on his contract imo. Going back a year ago, I thought he'd get 4yr40 mil based on how he played for Charlotte and had to eat crow over posting that. So him getting a makeup contract this season at least helps my basketball-ego..

I think his contract is worth it because I feel you can afford to pay Ibaka/Vuc/Biyombo 48-50 million in this market for the 3 years they are together. I wouldn't trade any of them unless it was an amazing offer. Once Vuc is due for an actual "big" contract in three seasons, you can choose between him and Biyombo assuming no one offers you anything worthwhile for him. Honestly love the idea of keeping all three.

I think Orlando is in a great spot moving forward, I just don't think this season will be as good as some are suggesting.

I like Mario more than most non-Orlando fans, but I think he is still a few years ago. I think AG will take a step, but that step will put him about where Parker was last year - not where Parker will be this year. That's just my opinion though..

I don't think Elf is a long term answer, but he could prove me wrong.

I think next offseason Orlando should have 20+ million in cap, again, but this time will have a really great frontcourt (imo if they keep all three) and AG will have had a really good season. Team will be a lot more attractive..

Clearly, Orlando can trade Vuc like most expect or EP can be the PG that a lot of people think he will be and I'll be wrong (again)

But my expectation is another season just like last win/loss.. The addition of Ibaka improves Vuc but Dipo's minutes going to DJ/rawMario will cancel that mostly. The depth of Biyombo and Green should improve the team along with Ibaka improving the starting defense, but I don't think that improvement tops the improvements other teams made. Pretty much what Colbinni said.

Except, I just openly think Elf is a weak spot that stops Orlando from topping other teams this season.

[Patsfan1081]

I really liked the Zimmerman pick, the kid could have been picked I the late teens if not for injuries. I wonder if he could possible see a few minutes pf in mop up time or something. Everyone seems to be hating on the Ibaka deal but they might be able to get a lot out of him in a contract year. The downside is the cap will hit a all time high in his contract year then drop next season. Brining in a vet to push Gordon for minutes might light a fire under him, but I'm not sure if Green is the guy for the job. I could see Orlando sneaking into the playoffs if Payton takes a big step forward or they trade for a pg at the deadline.

[wise1-2]

Mozgov is making 16 mill/yr, and I'd take biyombo over him. Also I think you're underestimating AG.

Mozgov is unfortunately a starting center. And to add, I still expect Monroe to be a starting center somewhere in the league this season, be it Houston/Charlotte... But you can add Kanter to take his spot to be fair, as I doubt OKC starts Adams/Kanter

And Biyombo is a solid risk on his contract imo. Going back a year ago, I thought he'd get 4yr40 mil based on how he played for Charlotte and had to eat crow over posting that. So him getting a makeup contract this season at least helps my basketball-ego..

I think his contract is worth it because I feel you can afford to pay Ibaka/Vuc/Biyombo 48-50 million in this market for the 3 years they are together. I wouldn't trade any of them unless it was an amazing offer. Once Vuc is due for an actual "big" contract in three seasons, you can choose between him and Biyombo assuming no one offers you anything worthwhile for him. Honestly love the idea of keeping all three.

I think Orlando is in a great spot moving forward, I just don't think this season will be as good as some are suggesting.

I like Mario more than most non-Orlando fans, but I think he is still a few years ago. I think AG will take a step, but that step will put him about where Parker was last year - not where Parker will be this year. That's just my opinion though..

I don't think Elf is a long term answer, but he could prove me wrong.

I think next offseason Orlando should have 20+ million in cap, again, but this time will have a really great frontcourt (imo if they keep all three) and AG will have had a really good season. Team will be a lot more attractive..

Clearly, Orlando can trade Vuc like most expect or EP can be the PG that a lot of people think he will be and I'll be wrong (again)

But my expectation is another season just like last win/loss.. The addition of Ibaka improves Vuc but Dipo's minutes going to DJ/rawMario will cancel that mostly. The depth of Biyombo and Green should improve the team along with Ibaka improving the starting defense, but I don't think that improvement tops the improvements other teams made. Pretty much what Colbinni said.

Except, I just openly think Elf is a weak spot that stops Orlando from topping other teams this season.

The thing is Dipo's minutes are mostly being replaced with Fournier/Gordon/Ibaka. Oladipo didn't really play a lot of PG. Augustin is replacing Watson and Napier's minutes which is a nice upgrade. When Watson was out, which was most of the season, they went searching the d league for a back up PG, so they signed Appling. Its no longer a weakness. Fournier played a lot of SF last season post-Harris trade, now he'll move back to SG, and Gordon picks up the minutes at SF. The minutes opened up at PF will go to Ibaka. Most of their players can play multiple positions anyway. Mario will be playing back up SG/SF, and if he can just improve his defense and hit his threes, he'll be a good role player this season. He should provide much needed shooting/spacing even though he's not a finished product. Speaking of finished products I think the whole team isn't a finished product. Hennigan still has a ton of flexibility with assets and cap space.

Also the advanced stats say Gordon was better than Parker this past season. In fact he has one of the best advanced stats from any player the past two drafts. It's really easy to make the argument that Gordon was already better, and I think he'll always be better, but that's JMO.

[tiderulz]

Boston added a #3 pick and Al Horford, a better player than Ibaka, and they have a better coach already.

debatable. Vogel has playoff success, havent seen that from Stevens yet. Stevens is a good coach and will do better with the better talent he has. But right now, Vogel is better. Horford better than Ibaka? if so it isnt by much. Horfords defense is overrated, is not a shot blocker and only recently developed a 3pt shot.

Pacers are much improved, and I expect them to be the 2nd best team in the East.

i dont agree, but you never know.

The Hornets won 48 games last year and didn't lose anyone worth mentioning, while Kemba is entering his prime and if MKG is healthy that is an addition in itself, to a 48 win team.

think they will miss Jefferson more than you think, both on the court and in the lockerroom. Lin was a great backup PG for them too.

The Hawks added Howard, a better player than Horford (though Magic fans will disagree, he is atleast a better fit next to Millsap). They will win around 45-50 games.

not sure why you say that, most Magic fans would agree Howard is better and gives them a defense they havent had before.

The Heat will be worse, but if Bosh can stay healthy they will be around a 40-45 win team again.

disagree here, i believe the Heat have a big dropoff.

Sure, an argument could be made that they are in the same tier as the Pistons, but the point stands that they aren't a top 5 team, and I don't even have them as a top 8 team. They will likely be fighting for the playoffs and they might make it if some team has an unfortunate injurt to a key piece.

guess we will find out.

[tiderulz]

If they were going to overpay for a rim protector, Biyombo, they should have kept Oladipo. If they had traded #11 for Teague and Elf to Philly for any of their future picks they would have had a good off-season instead of a disaster.

you dont understand, the FO didnt want to max out a SG that isnt a good shooter or finisher. Fournier fits better at SG and is a much better shooter.

[bondom34]

If they were going to overpay for a rim protector, Biyombo, they should have kept Oladipo. If they had traded #11 for Teague and Elf to Philly for any of their future picks they would have had a good off-season instead of a disaster.

you dont understand, the FO didnt want to max out a SG that isnt a good shooter or finisher. Fournier fits better at SG and is a much better shooter.

That makes sense, what still doesn't is the moves duplicated each other.

[wise1-2]

If they were going to overpay for a rim protector, Biyombo, they should have kept Oladipo. If they had traded #11 for Teague and Elf to Philly for any of their future picks they would have had a good off-season instead of a disaster.

you dont understand, the FO didnt want to max out a SG that isnt a good shooter or finisher. Fournier fits better at SG and is a much better shooter.

That makes sense, what still doesn't is the moves duplicated each other.

Ibaka and Biyombo will play alongside each other though. You can never have enough defense, and the Magic just acquired two of the best rim protectors in the NBA. That should make rim protection a strength and no longer a weakness. Equally as important is that now if they trade vucevic they don't need to get a center in return.

[bondom34]

you dont understand, the FO didnt want to max out a SG that isnt a good shooter or finisher. Fournier fits better at SG and is a much better shooter.

That makes sense, what still doesn't is the moves duplicated each other.

Ibaka and Biyombo will play alongside each other though. You can never have enough defense, and the Magic just acquired two of the best rim protectors in the NBA. That should make rim protection a strength and no longer a weakness. Equally as important is that now if they trade vucevic they don't need to get a center in return.

That duo will have really huge massive offensive issues. Nearly unplayable offensively together.

[wise1-2]

That makes sense, what still doesn't is the moves duplicated each other.

Ibaka and Biyombo will play alongside each other though. You can never have enough defense, and the Magic just acquired two of the best rim protectors in the NBA. That should make rim protection a strength and no longer a weakness. Equally as important is that now if they trade vucevic they don't need to get a center in return.

That duo will have really huge massive offensive issues. Nearly unplayable offensively together.

I don't buy that. Ibaka is one of the best floor spacers at his position. Biyombo has developed into a decent roll man. You just need offensive firepower at other positions. The defense will keep them in games.
I do think that ibaka will play alongside Vucevic far more than Biyombo though.

[bondom34]

Ibaka and Biyombo will play alongside each other though. You can never have enough defense, and the Magic just acquired two of the best rim protectors in the NBA. That should make rim protection a strength and no longer a weakness. Equally as important is that now if they trade vucevic they don't need to get a center in return.

That duo will have really huge massive offensive issues. Nearly unplayable offensively together.

I don't buy that. Ibaka is one of the best floor spacers at his position. Biyombo has developed into a decent roll man. You just need offensive firepower at other positions. The defense will keep them in games.
I do think that ibaka will play alongside Vucevic far more than Biyombo though.

Oh, Serge can space the floor but neither can dribble or pass to save their lives, and both have bad hands. Its not the spacing that's the issue, but the offense will be really bogged down.

[wise1-2]

That duo will have really huge massive offensive issues. Nearly unplayable offensively together.

I don't buy that. Ibaka is one of the best floor spacers at his position. Biyombo has developed into a decent roll man. You just need offensive firepower at other positions. The defense will keep them in games.
I do think that ibaka will play alongside Vucevic far more than Biyombo though.

Oh, Serge can space the floor but neither can dribble or pass to save their lives, and both have bad hands. Its not the spacing that's the issue, but the offense will be really bogged down.

I disagree. Ibaka is capable of playing in a pick n roll and pick n pop. Derrick favors and gobert form one of the best front courts in the league. You really think Ibaka and Biyombo so much worse that they're nearly unplayable?

[bondom34]

I don't buy that. Ibaka is one of the best floor spacers at his position. Biyombo has developed into a decent roll man. You just need offensive firepower at other positions. The defense will keep them in games.
I do think that ibaka will play alongside Vucevic far more than Biyombo though.

Oh, Serge can space the floor but neither can dribble or pass to save their lives, and both have bad hands. Its not the spacing that's the issue, but the offense will be really bogged down.

I disagree. Ibaka is capable of playing in a pick n roll and pick n pop. Derrick favors and gobert form one of the best front courts in the league. You really think Ibaka and Biyombo so much worse that they're nearly unplayable?

Yes. Gobert is much better than Biz, and Favors better than Ibaka. Of the 4, Ibaka and Biz are worst in OBPM and have much worse passing numbers. Ibaka was in the 40th percentile in PnR, and that was with Westbrook at PG. He now has Payton.

http://stats.nba.com/league/player/#!/playtype/roll-man/?CF=TeamNameAbbreviation*E*okc&Season=2015-16&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&PerMode=Totals

http://bkref.com/tiny/sU45t

[Slava]

It's all fun until you see Payton try to run a pick and pop and his man just doubles up on the screener daring him to shoot a midrange shot. If Fournier is the ball handler Payton's man doubles up on him and in both scenarios Gordon's man parks himself in the paint.

Content Removed -- Chuck

[Laimbeer]

I still find it comical that OKC posters continually laugh at how lopsided the trade was but before it happened, they turned down a hypothetical version of it on this board.

But I guess once ESPN says it's a rip off you just gotta go with the flow. Not hating, just don't like the wishy washy attitude. Own up to it if you thought it wasn't a good trade for you it's okay to stand out.

Anywho I didn't mind our offseason. Oladipo was tough to lose from an emotional standpoint but from a talent one, we will definitely survive. Fournier is similarly talented but a better fit for us. I think Vogel wanted this team to have an identity and he got it, with flexibility. Lots of guys on decent value deals, no real bad contracts unless a 1 year deal counts.

It's fandom. Any player traded away suddenly isn't as good, and vice versa. Happens with all fan bases, it's just more prominent in this thread because you have two OKC posters as judges and they made a fairly significant trade with the Magic.

[Texas Chuck]

I still find it comical that OKC posters continually laugh at how lopsided the trade was but before it happened, they turned down a hypothetical version of it on this board.

But I guess once ESPN says it's a rip off you just gotta go with the flow. Not hating, just don't like the wishy washy attitude. Own up to it if you thought it wasn't a good trade for you it's okay to stand out.

Anywho I didn't mind our offseason. Oladipo was tough to lose from an emotional standpoint but from a talent one, we will definitely survive. Fournier is similarly talented but a better fit for us. I think Vogel wanted this team to have an identity and he got it, with flexibility. Lots of guys on decent value deals, no real bad contracts unless a 1 year deal counts.

It's fandom. Any player traded away suddenly isn't as good, and vice versa. Happens with all fan bases, it's just more prominent in this thread because you have two OKC posters as judges and they made a fairly significant trade with the Magic.

I think Magic fans shouldn't be too quick to throw stones. We could go back and dig up posts on how awesome Dipo was and now most Magic fans spend time telling us about all his weaknesses and desire for a max contract(guess what Ibaka is going to want?).

Nothing is served by playing that game. Everyone loses. Well not everyone. I win because I can laugh at everyone. And I can do so freely because the Mavs are mediocre and we have literally no assets to hype up.