Toronto/Orlando

Econgrad · Post #41 » by **Econgrad** » Mon Dec 12, 2016 4:33 pm

What if Toronto were to adjust the offer to include Pascal Siakam (starting now) and Jakob Poetl (top 10 pic this past year) along with Ross and both the TO and LAC picks?

I can understand Orlando fans wanting to keep Ibaka but I can't really understand the team making a huge investment in a player this coming offseason when the team is still a WAYS away from contending. This deal would give them two solid younger bigs and Ross is a bargain under this new cap reality for the next 3 years.

RightToCensor · Post #42 » by **RightToCensor** » Mon Dec 12, 2016 4:34 pm

Colbinii wrote:
Rapcity_11 wrote:
Texas Chuck wrote:

Bingo.

They also thought Aaron Gordon could play the 3 at the time of the trade.

That isn't true.

http://www.cbssports.com/fantasy/basketball/news/magics-aaron-gordon-expected-to-start-at-small-forward-in-2016-17/

Colbinii · Post #43 » by **Colbinii** » Mon Dec 12, 2016 4:34 pm

Rapcity_11 wrote:
Colbinii wrote:
Rapcity_11 wrote:
They also thought Aaron Gordon could play the 3 at the time of the trade.

That isn't true.

It's pretty obvious they did based on how they went about their offseason.

I disagree. Orlando isn't done building the team just because they acquire Ibaka. Ibaka was the best player they could get for Dipo, and clearly Orlando was done with Dipo. Gordon hasn't proven **** in the NBA besides solid defense. His position is still a tossup (as is his value), but to me, Orlando knew Gordon wasn't ready to contribute and knew Ibaka was.

Colbinii · Post #44 » by **Colbinii** » Mon Dec 12, 2016 4:37 pm

RightToCensor wrote:
Colbinii wrote:
Rapcity_11 wrote:
They also thought Aaron Gordon could play the 3 at the time of the trade.

That isn't true.

http://www.cbssports.com/fantasy/basketball/news/magics-aaron-gordon-expected-to-start-at-small-forward-in-2016-17/

This proves that Orlando is playing Gordon at the 3, not that they see him as the answer longterm.

In fact, Vogel stated that in addition to starting at small forward, Gordon would still see plenty of minutes at power forward when Ibaka is off the floor or used as a small-ball center.

Rapcity_11 · Post #45 » by **Rapcity_11** » Mon Dec 12, 2016 4:37 pm

Colbinii wrote:
Rapcity_11 wrote:
Colbinii wrote:
That isn't true.

It's pretty obvious they did based on how they went about their offseason.

I disagree. Orlando isn't done building the team just because they acquire Ibaka. Ibaka was the best player they could get for Dipo, and clearly Orlando was done with Dipo. Gordon hasn't proven **** in the NBA besides solid defense. His position is still a tossup (as is his value), but to me, Orlando knew Gordon wasn't ready to contribute and knew Ibaka was.

They wouldn't have signed Biyombo if they didn't think Gordon could play the 3. I don't even see how this is debatable.

Anyways, the point is front offices can change their tune from a few months ago.

Prokorov · Post #46 » by **Prokorov** » Mon Dec 12, 2016 4:51 pm

Ibaka is playing well and orlando gave up a ton to get him.... unless they dont think they can resign him i cant see orlando trading for 75% of what they gave up to get him just a few months ago

Prokorov · Post #47 » by **Prokorov** » Mon Dec 12, 2016 4:52 pm

Econgrad wrote:What if Toronto were to adjust the offer to include Pascal Siakam (starting now) and Jakob Poetl (top 10 pic this past year) along with Ross and both the TO and LAC picks?

I can understand Orlando fans wanting to keep Ibaka but I can't really understand the team making a huge investment in a player this coming offseason when the team is still a WAYS away from contending. This deal would give them two solid younger bigs and Ross is a bargain under this new cap reality for the next 3 years.

Does orlando need more prospects/young guys? they have a ton already. i think they need more vets, not to let one go. just because you arent a win-now team doesnt mean having vets who can play isnt important.

Rapcity_11 · Post #48 » by **Rapcity_11** » Mon Dec 12, 2016 4:58 pm

Prokorov wrote:
Econgrad wrote:What if Toronto were to adjust the offer to include Pascal Siakam (starting now) and Jakob Poetl (top 10 pic this past year) along with Ross and both the TO and LAC picks?

I can understand Orlando fans wanting to keep Ibaka but I can't really understand the team making a huge investment in a player this coming offseason when the team is still a WAYS away from contending. This deal would give them two solid younger bigs and Ross is a bargain under this new cap reality for the next 3 years.

Does orlando need more prospects/young guys? they have a ton already. i think they need more vets, not to let one go. just because you arent a win-now team doesnt mean having vets who can play isnt important.

They have Payton, Hezonja (looking like a bust) and...Zimmerman? Yeah, they definitely need more young guys/prospects.

RightToCensor · Post #49 » by **RightToCensor** » Mon Dec 12, 2016 5:02 pm

Colbinii wrote:
RightToCensor wrote:
Colbinii wrote:
That isn't true.

http://www.cbssports.com/fantasy/basketball/news/magics-aaron-gordon-expected-to-start-at-small-forward-in-2016-17/

This proves that Orlando is playing Gordon at the 3, not that they see him as the answer longterm.

In fact, Vogel stated that in addition to starting at small forward, Gordon would still see plenty of minutes at power forward when Ibaka is off the floor or used as a small-ball center.

If they plan on extending Ibaka then they'll have to commit to Gordon starting at SF by default.

Prokorov · Post #50 » by **Prokorov** » Mon Dec 12, 2016 5:06 pm

Rapcity_11 wrote:
Prokorov wrote:
Econgrad wrote:What if Toronto were to adjust the offer to include Pascal Siakam (starting now) and Jakob Poetl (top 10 pic this past year) along with Ross and both the TO and LAC picks?

I can understand Orlando fans wanting to keep Ibaka but I can't really understand the team making a huge investment in a player this coming offseason when the team is still a WAYS away from contending. This deal would give them two solid younger bigs and Ross is a bargain under this new cap reality for the next 3 years.

Does orlando need more prospects/young guys? they have a ton already. i think they need more vets, not to let one go. just because you arent a win-now team doesnt mean having vets who can play isnt important.

They have Payton, Hezonja (looking like a bust) and...Zimmerman? Yeah, they definitely need more young guys/prospects.

aaron gordan isnt a young prospect at 21?

Payton/Hezonja/Gordan are all lotto picks 21 or younger.

Fournier and Biyombo are 24, Vucevic is 26. thats like 80% of their starting lineup and first 2 guys off the bench.

they need a vet like ibaka more then they need more prospects,... especially non-lotto prospects

tiderulz · Post #51 » by **tiderulz** » Mon Dec 12, 2016 5:07 pm

RightToCensor wrote:
Colbinii wrote:
RightToCensor wrote:http://www.cbssports.com/fantasy/basketball/news/magics-aaron-gordon-expected-to-start-at-small-forward-in-2016-17/

This proves that Orlando is playing Gordon at the 3, not that they see him as the answer longterm.

In fact, Vogel stated that in addition to starting at small forward, Gordon would still see plenty of minutes at power forward when Ibaka is off the floor or used as a small-ball center.

If they plan on extending Ibaka then they'll have to commit to Gordon starting at SF by default.

could trade Vuc. Have a 3 big man rotation of Bismack/Ibaka/AG, plenty of minutes to go around.

tiderulz · Post #52 » by **tiderulz** » Mon Dec 12, 2016 5:07 pm

Prokorov wrote:Ibaka is playing well and orlando gave up a ton to get him.... unless they dont think they can resign him i cant see orlando trading for 75% of what they gave up to get him just a few months ago

we gave up Dipo and a late lottery pick. Not sure where this "ton" comes from. Dont mention Ilyasova, he was about to be cut.

but i agree, we're not looking to trade him.

RightToCensor · Post #53 » by **RightToCensor** » Mon Dec 12, 2016 5:10 pm

Prokorov wrote:Ibaka is playing well and orlando gave up a ton to get him.... unless they dont think they can resign him i cant see orlando trading for 75% of what they gave up to get him just a few months ago

It shouldn't matter what Orlando gave up to get Ibaka, they clearly overpaid for him. It was a bad trade for Orlando and they shouldn't expect another team to give a similar package for the same player.

If Orlando lets Serge Ibaka walk then they would have also let Oladipo and Sabonis go for nothing as well. Orlando would have taken one step forward and five steps back in the matter of a year.

Jadoogar · Post #54 » by **Jadoogar** » Mon Dec 12, 2016 5:11 pm

Texas Chuck wrote:
Dirk Nowitzki wrote:I am sure the Magic knew that Ibaka was on the last year of his contract when they made the trade.

Bingo.

The fact that it was a terrible trade should not be factored into the value they would get if they traded him now. They thought they would be able to make the playoffs and convince him to stay. Right now they are in 12th place so to make the playoffs, even as an 8 seed, they would have have to jump over 4 teams. I don't think he will resign after this season to a non-playoff team (don't gimme that crap he's telling the media, every player says the same things in public). Sure they can offer him the most money but it may not be wise to offer that much and that many years to a 30 year old player who plays the same position as their best prospect.

Colbinii · Post #55 » by **Colbinii** » Mon Dec 12, 2016 5:11 pm

Rapcity_11 wrote:

They wouldn't have signed Biyombo if they didn't think Gordon could play the 3. I don't even see how this is debatable.

Long term I disagree.

Prokorov · Post #56 » by **Prokorov** » Mon Dec 12, 2016 5:14 pm

RightToCensor wrote:
Prokorov wrote:Ibaka is playing well and orlando gave up a ton to get him.... unless they dont think they can resign him i cant see orlando trading for 75% of what they gave up to get him just a few months ago

It shouldn't matter what Orlando gave up to get Ibaka, they clearly overpaid for him. It was a bad trade for Orlando and they shouldn't expect another team to give a similar package for the same player.

If Orlando lets Serge Ibaka walk then they would have also let Oladipo and Sabonis go for nothing as well. Orlando would have taken one step forward and five steps back in the matter of a year.

they could... you know... just not let him walk

Colbinii · Post #57 » by **Colbinii** » Mon Dec 12, 2016 5:15 pm

Rapcity_11 wrote:
Prokorov wrote:
Econgrad wrote:What if Toronto were to adjust the offer to include Pascal Siakam (starting now) and Jakob Poetl (top 10 pic this past year) along with Ross and both the TO and LAC picks?

I can understand Orlando fans wanting to keep Ibaka but I can't really understand the team making a huge investment in a player this coming offseason when the team is still a WAYS away from contending. This deal would give them two solid younger bigs and Ross is a bargain under this new cap reality for the next 3 years.

Does orlando need more prospects/young guys? they have a ton already. i think they need more vets, not to let one go. just because you arent a win-now team doesnt mean having vets who can play isnt important.

They have Payton, Hezonja (looking like a bust) and...Zimmerman? Yeah, they definitely need more young guys/prospects.

What about Gordon?

Also, acquiring more prospects with little potential who could potentially be starting caliber players in 4-5 years is a foolish move for Orlando. They have a good coach, and we saw what he did with Indiana for 3 years (2-4 SRS team, similar to Toronto currently).
Ibaka is better than what any prospect they are getting back projects to be. Why not just keep the player who is a) A fantastic fit and b) Happy to be there? I see no reason to move Ibaka unless unrealistic value is coming back.

Rapcity_11 · Post #58 » by **Rapcity_11** » Mon Dec 12, 2016 5:16 pm

Prokorov wrote:
Rapcity_11 wrote:
Prokorov wrote:
Does orlando need more prospects/young guys? they have a ton already. i think they need more vets, not to let one go. just because you arent a win-now team doesnt mean having vets who can play isnt important.

They have Payton, Hezonja (looking like a bust) and...Zimmerman? Yeah, they definitely need more young guys/prospects.

aaron gordan isnt a young prospect at 21?

Payton/Hezonja/Gordan are all lotto picks 21 or younger.

Fournier and Biyombo are 24, Vucevic is 26. thats like 80% of their starting lineup and first 2 guys off the bench.

they need a vet like ibaka more then they need more prospects,... especially non-lotto prospects

Typed too quick and forgot Gordon. Established players in their 5th seasons + don't count as young guys and prospects.

Payton is 23 in 2 months. Biyombo may not be 24 (acts like a vet either way). Vuc is a vet at this point.

For a team that's clearly not ready to win, they definitely need more young guys/prospects.

Colbinii · Post #59 » by **Colbinii** » Mon Dec 12, 2016 5:17 pm

RightToCensor wrote:
Colbinii wrote:
RightToCensor wrote:http://www.cbssports.com/fantasy/basketball/news/magics-aaron-gordon-expected-to-start-at-small-forward-in-2016-17/

This proves that Orlando is playing Gordon at the 3, not that they see him as the answer longterm.

In fact, Vogel stated that in addition to starting at small forward, Gordon would still see plenty of minutes at power forward when Ibaka is off the floor or used as a small-ball center.

If they plan on extending Ibaka then they'll have to commit to Gordon starting at SF by default.

No they don't. They can move one of Biyombo/Vuc or move Gordon. At this rate, Gordon isn't looking like a starter anyways.

Rapcity_11 · Post #60 » by **Rapcity_11** » Mon Dec 12, 2016 5:19 pm

Colbinii wrote:
Rapcity_11 wrote:
Prokorov wrote:
Does orlando need more prospects/young guys? they have a ton already. i think they need more vets, not to let one go. just because you arent a win-now team doesnt mean having vets who can play isnt important.

They have Payton, Hezonja (looking like a bust) and...Zimmerman? Yeah, they definitely need more young guys/prospects.

What about Gordon?

Also, acquiring more prospects with little potential who could potentially be starting caliber players in 4-5 years is a foolish move for Orlando. They have a good coach, and we saw what he did with Indiana for 3 years (2-4 SRS team, similar to Toronto currently).
Ibaka is better than what any prospect they are getting back projects to be. Why not just keep the player who is a) A fantastic fit and b) Happy to be there? I see no reason to move Ibaka unless unrealistic value is coming back.

Indiana had far more talent than this team, so I'm not sure that's relevant.

The fact remains Orlando needs more young players/prospects. They aren't ready to win.