Philadelphia - Portland - Toronto

[Texas Chuck]

but it seems I hear more and more people around here talking like bringing him in is instantly signing on for 4 years of exhausting drama and craziness.

There is an existing poll on the GB that certainly confirms a similar perception. It's talking more about whether or not he's faking mental illness, but goes to the same general idea. It's overwhelmingly anti-Simmons.

Now I've made no bones about still believing in Simmons in a player, believing his mental health issues are real and not merely convenient though I'm not denying the appearance in any way. And also that I believe Morey and Philly are doing the right things by not trading him just to trade him and they are right to fine him if he's not meeting certain obligations.

I think Simmons is more likely to thrive in a new locale than get stir up more trouble in part because I think much of his unhappiness is Philly-specific, but also in part because he knows if this happens again, his name is mud and this will be the last huge multiyear deal he gets. He will turn into Monta Ellis or Dwight Howard or whomever just bouncing around the league on short term lessor money deals because nobody will trust him.


Having said all that, I do get those who are most skeptical. The current situation certainly doesn't say Ben Simmons is a low risk buy. Not just all this drama and whatnot, but then he's an on-ball player that both can't and won't shoot at times. And has FT issues of some seriousness. He's going to need a certain team construction that allows him to be a major contributor to a contending team.

But having said that, and having a ball dominant player of our own with his own shooting and FT issues(though unwillingness is not a problem. ) I'd love to get him to Dallas if the Mavs had the assets--but of course they don't. He's simply such a talented player that I'd gamble. But I understand those who are more risk adverse.

[GutUNC]

but it seems I hear more and more people around here talking like bringing him in is instantly signing on for 4 years of exhausting drama and craziness.

Having said all that, I do get those who are most skeptical. The current situation certainly doesn't say Ben Simmons is a low risk buy. Not just all this drama and whatnot, but then he's an on-ball player that both can't and won't shoot at times. And has FT issues of some seriousness. He's going to need a certain team construction that allows him to be a major contributor to a contending team.

But having said that, and having a ball dominant player of our own with his own shooting and FT issues(though unwillingness is not a problem. ) I'd love to get him to Dallas if the Mavs had the assets--but of course they don't. He's simply such a talented player that I'd gamble. But I understand those who are more risk adverse.

And skepticism about his game is certainly understandable to the point that I don't even think all of us disagree all that much about it. I was just pushing back on the idea that he's a perpetual locker room issue when this - while a doozy - is the only example.

[DeBlazerRiddem]

but it seems I hear more and more people around here talking like bringing him in is instantly signing on for 4 years of exhausting drama and craziness.

Having said all that, I do get those who are most skeptical. The current situation certainly doesn't say Ben Simmons is a low risk buy. Not just all this drama and whatnot, but then he's an on-ball player that both can't and won't shoot at times. And has FT issues of some seriousness. He's going to need a certain team construction that allows him to be a major contributor to a contending team.

But having said that, and having a ball dominant player of our own with his own shooting and FT issues(though unwillingness is not a problem. ) I'd love to get him to Dallas if the Mavs had the assets--but of course they don't. He's simply such a talented player that I'd gamble. But I understand those who are more risk adverse.

And skepticism about his game is certainly understandable to the point that I don't even think all of us disagree all that much about it. I was just pushing back on the idea that he's a perpetual locker room issue when this - while a doozy - is the only example.

Naw there is a history with Ben Simmons weird personality, like him refusing to work with a shooting coach and often acting aloof and solitary, where this saga might very reasonably be extension of that and not an isolated incident. We have things going all the way to when Butler was a Sixer, actually going back to LSU where he clearly didn't give a crap. I'm not here to relitigate all that but this is not the only example of him being difficult and people questioning him.

[GutUNC]

Having said all that, I do get those who are most skeptical. The current situation certainly doesn't say Ben Simmons is a low risk buy. Not just all this drama and whatnot, but then he's an on-ball player that both can't and won't shoot at times. And has FT issues of some seriousness. He's going to need a certain team construction that allows him to be a major contributor to a contending team.

But having said that, and having a ball dominant player of our own with his own shooting and FT issues(though unwillingness is not a problem. ) I'd love to get him to Dallas if the Mavs had the assets--but of course they don't. He's simply such a talented player that I'd gamble. But I understand those who are more risk adverse.

And skepticism about his game is certainly understandable to the point that I don't even think all of us disagree all that much about it. I was just pushing back on the idea that he's a perpetual locker room issue when this - while a doozy - is the only example.

Naw there is a history with Ben Simmons weird personality, like him refusing to work with a shooting coach and often acting aloof and solitary, where this saga might very reasonably be extension of that and not an isolated incident. We have things going all the way to when Butler was a Sixer, actually going back to LSU where he clearly didn't give a crap. I'm not here to relitigate all that but this is not the only example of him being difficult and people questioning him.

Those are 2 different things that you're combining.

[DeBlazerRiddem]

And skepticism about his game is certainly understandable to the point that I don't even think all of us disagree all that much about it. I was just pushing back on the idea that he's a perpetual locker room issue when this - while a doozy - is the only example.

Naw there is a history with Ben Simmons weird personality, like him refusing to work with a shooting coach and often acting aloof and solitary, where this saga might very reasonably be extension of that and not an isolated incident. We have things going all the way to when Butler was a Sixer, actually going back to LSU where he clearly didn't give a crap. I'm not here to relitigate all that but this is not the only example of him being difficult and people questioning him.

Those are 2 different things that you're combining.

Are you trying to say there is not a history of various odd issues with Ben Simmons? That he has been the perfect competitor up until now? Because I just am not buying what you are selling then.

[HotelVitale]

Didn't want to quote DeBlazerRiddem directly as it's not a direct to response to him but the general sentiment that has seemed to grow on Real GM. I just feel like it needs to be pointed out that up until this summer, Simmons has been essentially a zero maintenance personality. He and Embiid have never had an issue and he's barely spoken to the media unless required, let alone produced an ounce of the soap opera drama that we're all now enduring.

Now....if you want to look at that as a "other then that, how was the play Mrs. Lincoln?" situation you can, but it seems I hear more and more people around here talking like bringing him in is instantly signing on for 4 years of exhausting drama and craziness. The far more likely scenario to me seems to me that he'll return to being the same quiet, (too) even-keeled person he's always been as soon as he leaves the city limits of Philadelphia and gets away from the people he perceives as antagonizing him.

I also think that's the case--Simmons is an intense competitor who just wants to play, and he keeps his head down otherwise. I'm pretty confident he would happily play wherever he was traded and not make waves. He just seems to feel like he can't go out and ball now without getting hated on, and doesn't think that's getting better in Philly no matter what he does.

That said, if you're trading for him now you have to be somewhat concerned about what might happen down the line. Maybe he catches some extra flak for some bad PO performance on his next team, and maybe he starts feeling attacked again. It's very possible that doesn't happen but it's gotta be on peoples' minds. (But it's also boring and disingenuous to use that to say 'so therefore you'll never get anything but scraps for him, losers!')

[GutUNC]

Naw there is a history with Ben Simmons weird personality, like him refusing to work with a shooting coach and often acting aloof and solitary, where this saga might very reasonably be extension of that and not an isolated incident. We have things going all the way to when Butler was a Sixer, actually going back to LSU where he clearly didn't give a crap. I'm not here to relitigate all that but this is not the only example of him being difficult and people questioning him.

Those are 2 different things that you're combining.

Are you trying to say there is not a history of various odd issues with Ben Simmons? That he has been the perfect competitor up until now? Because I just am not buying what you are selling then.

I'm saying that there are legitimate criticisms about his game and how it has/hasn't improved but that it's incorrect to convey those to make him sound that he's been some sort of locker room/drama problem up until this summer.

[stormi]

If Morey believes Dame is the key piece to a championship he pulls the trigger. All NBA player increases Philly chances of winning a championship.

I don't think he does. Especially considering how analytics oriented he is.

Dame (and CJ) has been awful in terms of 3 year playoff-LEBRON cumulative stats per his career.

One of the worst defenders in the sport that's also a non-elite playmaker.

Not sure why Portland fans think a James Harden-esque package is coming for a regular season chucker that's well below the gamebreaking levels James Harden has been for the better part of a decade.

Lillard is a better closer than Harden and PHI doesn’t have that.

"Better closer" is the worst pseudo description I've ever heard in terms of trying to prop up a player. Westbrook fans use this one a lot too to talk about how clutch he is.

Harden has led more good teams, won more playoff rounds and has a better winning percentage as a #1 option than Dame has in Portland. Dame has three separate seasons since he's been drafted where he's gotten out of the first round, what exactly is he closing out.

[stormi]

If Morey believes Dame is the key piece to a championship he pulls the trigger. All NBA player increases Philly chances of winning a championship.

I don't think he does. Especially considering how analytics oriented he is.

Dame (and CJ) has been awful in terms of 3 year playoff-LEBRON cumulative stats per his career.

One of the worst defenders in the sport that's also a non-elite playmaker.

Not sure why Portland fans think a James Harden-esque package is coming for a regular season chucker that's well below the gamebreaking levels James Harden has been for the better part of a decade.

These values are still on fairly small samples that are more vulnerable to impact by opposing team matchups and the tactical game we see more in the playoffs.

I'm really not buying this as a good metric considering Portland's situation. Lillard is expected to be EVERYTHING and when you are (the last two seasons) consistently a low-seed with a very predictable game (because your offense is mostly just two players) and you are playing an inordinate amount of minutes, the metrics aren't going to tease out your individual impact on the game.

The comparison was to James Harden unfortunately who, in those same circumstances, has been one of the premier playoff performers of our generation.

The issue with Dame is that he's simply an underwhelming playmaker, while also being a horrific defender that gets picked on by bigger guards. We saw this on full display the year when Rondo and Jrue humiliated him (& CJ) in that sweep as a 6 seed.

He's a very good player, but his numbers are inflated like you said from being his team's everything. I'm not sure if his playstyle is conducive to championship winning basketball or regular season statpadding.

[JRoy]

I don't think he does. Especially considering how analytics oriented he is.

Dame (and CJ) has been awful in terms of 3 year playoff-LEBRON cumulative stats per his career.

One of the worst defenders in the sport that's also a non-elite playmaker.

Not sure why Portland fans think a James Harden-esque package is coming for a regular season chucker that's well below the gamebreaking levels James Harden has been for the better part of a decade.

Lillard is a better closer than Harden and PHI doesn’t have that.

"Better closer" is the worst pseudo description I've ever heard in terms of trying to prop up a player. Westbrook fans use this one a lot too to talk about how clutch he is.

Harden has led more good teams, won more playoff rounds and has a better winning percentage as a #1 option than Dame has in Portland. Dame has three separate seasons since he's been drafted where he's gotten out of the first round, what exactly is he closing out.

Harden, for one

[stormi]

Lillard is a better closer than Harden and PHI doesn’t have that.

"Better closer" is the worst pseudo description I've ever heard in terms of trying to prop up a player. Westbrook fans use this one a lot too to talk about how clutch he is.

Harden has led more good teams, won more playoff rounds and has a better winning percentage as a #1 option than Dame has in Portland. Dame has three separate seasons since he's been drafted where he's gotten out of the first round, what exactly is he closing out.

Harden, for one

That's all his career will be remembered for.

1) Hand waving after a fluke shot
2) Holier than thou loyalty posting on twitter
3) And dropping 50 points in inconsequential regular season games against the Timberwolves in March before getting smoked in 5 games in the first round.

Don't want him, personally. A 31 year old Dame Lillard to me isn't even as enticing on the open market as a 35 year old hampered Chris Paul was. That's the true floor general we need.

[JRoy]

"Better closer" is the worst pseudo description I've ever heard in terms of trying to prop up a player. Westbrook fans use this one a lot too to talk about how clutch he is.

Harden has led more good teams, won more playoff rounds and has a better winning percentage as a #1 option than Dame has in Portland. Dame has three separate seasons since he's been drafted where he's gotten out of the first round, what exactly is he closing out.

Harden, for one

That's all his career will be remembered for.

1) Hand waving after a fluke shot
2) Holier than thou loyalty posting on twitter
3) And dropping 50 points in inconsequential regular season games against the Timberwolves in March before getting smoked in 5 games in the first round.

Don't want him, personally. A 31 year old Dame Lillard to me isn't even as enticing on the open market as a 35 year old hampered Chris Paul was. That's the true floor general we need.

Let the hatred flow from you

[JasonStern]

Sorry for derailing the conversation to get it back on topic, but if:

TOR sends out:
Pascal Siakam
Chris Boucher

TOR receives:
CJ McCollum
Jusuf Nurkic

...is something Toronto considers, are we sure Portland doesn't just go that route? Didn't check if it is CBA legal. Just thinking out loud seeing this thread.

[DangerZone13]

Sorry for derailing the conversation to get it back on topic, but if:

TOR sends out:
Pascal Siakam
Chris Boucher

TOR receives:
CJ McCollum
Jusuf Nurkic

...is something Toronto considers, are we sure Portland doesn't just go that route? Didn't check if it is CBA legal. Just thinking out loud seeing this thread.

Good on you for steering things back.

I just don't see Toronto and Portland as good trade partners. I have no doubt that Pascal would look GREAT beside Dame, and probably one of the best fits for Spicy, and of course there's chemistry with Stormin' Norman. However CJ doesn't fit the Raptors at all who value size and defense, and he'd be the oldest player besides Dragic. I also think the value is a bit off - even if you argue CJ and Spicy are on the same level, there's a good age gap there, and Nurk doesn't really factor since a Spicy trade indicates going all-in around OG and Barnes, meaning a development year.

Finding a third team 1. Desperate for success this year, with 2. Some young talent/picks, that 3. Would be drastically improved enough by CJ to warrant sending out young players/picks with enough value to buy a former All-Star, All NBA 2nd team player in his prime - even if you want to argue he is overpaid - is a tall order.

Raptors wish-list if moving Siakam could include pieces of the following:
- Siakam + other pieces for an upgrade/better fit (+size for position, length, defense, creation, 3's) (OG+Scottie off the table)
- a young PG upgrade over Flynn. Ideally bigger to fit the team identity.
- a young shooter with flashes of creation to develop in case GTJ can't be retained when he takes his PO-opt out.
- a young defensive 5 with hints of range to develop alongside Achiuwa.
- I suppose a young 4 to develop for the bench.
- Salary filler bearing in mind a 2023 GTJ ($17M/yr - $??M/yr) extension budget, and then OG the following year.

[JasonStern]

I just don't see Toronto and Portland as good trade partners.

I agree. They were great partners but they already made the logical Powell/Trent swap.

Toronto is rebuilding around a young core, so CJ makes zero sense. I think you could make a good case for the logic behind a CJ -> Philly, Simmons -> Toronto, Siakam -> Portland trade, but I think each team overvalues their own players for anything to actually come from it.

If Nassir Little continues to improve, some sort of Little+picks for Siakam might make sense. But then the Blazers would need filler salary and they don't really have that right now (which is a rare, nice to have problem).

[DangerZone13]

I just don't see Toronto and Portland as good trade partners.

I agree. They were great partners but they already made the logical Powell/Trent swap.

Toronto is rebuilding around a young core, so CJ makes zero sense. I think you could make a good case for the logic behind a CJ -> Philly, Simmons -> Toronto, Siakam -> Portland trade, but I think each team overvalues their own players for anything to actually come from it.

If Nassir Little continues to improve, some sort of Little+picks for Siakam might make sense. But then the Blazers would need filler salary and they don't really have that right now (which is a rare, nice to have problem).

Little looks like he could be a nice piece if he keeps developing. The filler salary is, as you said, a nice problem to have - it's just frustrating for us RealGMs trying to balance things haha.

Gotta agree about the teams each likely overvaluing those pieces, and maybe holding them longer than they should, to the point of not making the deal. Also, Raptors really need perimeter threats all around Barnes.

[Van_Trump]

Well, this is a step down from "Pascal Siakam and stuff" that was so maligned a month ago.