Thoughts in General, Rumors, etc... Take 6

[Colbinii]

Neither team does it. Imagine having an 18/4/3, 23 year old wing with 2 years, 6 million left on contract and trading him for a fringe all-star.

He's likely making his 2nd all nba team. That's not a fringe all star

It is.

Siakam's ranking for cumulative statistics

PER: 31st
OBPM: 31st
BPM: 27th
RAPTOR: 71st
Siakam: 88th Percentile

But, this board isn't about play comparison, its about trades. The fact is, a poor man's Klay Thompson on a 2-year, 6 Million dollar deal is an insane amount of value. He takes up less than 3% of the cap for the next 2 years. Compare that to a contract of roughly 25-30% of the cap for the next 2 seasons and there isn't a reason for Memphis to consider the trade at this time.

[Godaddycurse]

Neither team does it. Imagine having an 18/4/3, 23 year old wing with 2 years, 6 million left on contract and trading him for a fringe all-star.

He's likely making his 2nd all nba team. That's not a fringe all star

It is.

Siakam's ranking for cumulative statistics

PER: 31st
OBPM: 31st
BPM: 27th
RAPTOR: 71st
Siakam: 88th Percentile

But, this board isn't about play comparison, its about trades. The fact is, a poor man's Klay Thompson on a 2-year, 6 Million dollar deal is an insane amount of value. He takes up less than 3% of the cap for the next 2 years. Compare that to a contract of roughly 25-30% of the cap for the next 2 seasons and there isn't a reason for Memphis to consider the trade at this time.

Siakam advanced stats suffered from the 1st month of return when he wasn't 100% yet after shoulder surgery. His play the rest of th season was stellar.

Bane is insane value for next 2 years, but then he will likely look for a max and i am skeptical he will be positive value at that point. Siakam on the other hand you can be more sure to be worth the max for the next 4-5 years.

[Texas Chuck]

Unfortunately I think both side prefer their own player.

Can I clip this to post in every thread?

[daoneandonly]

Curious to see how Brunson's pretty inept performance against the Suns this year in the PO and Clipps last year, while also factoring in his stellar play against the Jazz impacts his next contract

[Troubadour]

Neither team does it. Imagine having an 18/4/3, 23 year old wing with 2 years, 6 million left on contract and trading him for a fringe all-star.

He's likely making his 2nd all nba team. That's not a fringe all star

It is.

Siakam's ranking for cumulative statistics

PER: 31st
OBPM: 31st
BPM: 27th
RAPTOR: 71st
Siakam: 88th Percentile

But, this board isn't about play comparison, its about trades. The fact is, a poor man's Klay Thompson on a 2-year, 6 Million dollar deal is an insane amount of value. He takes up less than 3% of the cap for the next 2 years. Compare that to a contract of roughly 25-30% of the cap for the next 2 seasons and there isn't a reason for Memphis to consider the trade at this time.

Setting aside the fact that All-NBA is a better measure of value than PER, these all-in-one stats are more a reflection of excellence in role than true value.

Montrezl Harrell is 15th in PER and 49th in ORPM. Both marks rank ahead of Brandon Ingram. Is Montrezl Harrell more valuable than Brandon Ingram?

Pascal Siakam is the offensive hub of a 48-win team averaging 23 PTS, 8 REB, and 5 AST on league-average efficiency despite having an unusually difficult shot distribution. He does all that while ranking 17th league-wide in DRPM and leading the Raptors to a top 10 defence. From Dec 1st on, the Raptors played at a 55-win pace with Siakam in the lineup. Dec 1st is used because it's roughly when he rounded into form following a return from shoulder surgery.

Don't think people really get how important he was to the Raptors' success this season, especially considering the fact that VanVleet was not the same player due to injury for the final three months of the season.

[Colbinii]

He's likely making his 2nd all nba team. That's not a fringe all star

It is.

Siakam's ranking for cumulative statistics

PER: 31st
OBPM: 31st
BPM: 27th
RAPTOR: 71st
Siakam: 88th Percentile

But, this board isn't about play comparison, its about trades. The fact is, a poor man's Klay Thompson on a 2-year, 6 Million dollar deal is an insane amount of value. He takes up less than 3% of the cap for the next 2 years. Compare that to a contract of roughly 25-30% of the cap for the next 2 seasons and there isn't a reason for Memphis to consider the trade at this time.

Setting aside the fact that All-NBA is a better measure of value than PER, these all-in-one stats are more a reflection of excellence in role than true value.

Perhaps, but the issue with All-NBA is it overrates players in positions with less depth.

I'm also not championing PER here, I was simply showing a variety of statistics which paint Siakam as a player between 25-30, which is the fringe all-star level.

Montrezl Harrell is 15th in PER and 49th in ORPM. Both marks rank ahead of Brandon Ingram. Is Montrezl Harrell more valuable than Brandon Ingram?

No, but nobody is arguing that. There is a reason I chose multiple statistics and not one. Shame on you for bringing up this point.

Pascal Siakam is the offensive hub of a 48-win team averaging 23 PTS, 8 REB, and 5 AST on league-average efficiency despite having an unusually difficult shot distribution. He does all that while ranking 17th league-wide in DRPM and leading the Raptors to a top 10 defence. From Dec 1st on, the Raptors played at a 55-win pace with Siakam in the lineup. Dec 1st is used because it's roughly when he rounded into form following a return from shoulder surgery.

And?

Did no other players get off to slow starts? Did no other players lead teams to good second half records?

I'm not sure what this proves regarding Siakam. Wasn't FVV crushing this year as well? Doesn't Toronto have one of the best coaches in the NBA?

Don't think people really get how important he was to the Raptors' success this season, especially considering the fact that VanVleet was not the same player due to injury for the final three months of the season.

People on this board do, people who follow the NBA as closely as I do do understand Pascal Siakam. He is a top 25 or 30 player [Depending on one's criteria] and a cornerstone for a play-off team. Great player.

[Godaddycurse]

People on this board do, people who follow the NBA as closely as I do do understand Pascal Siakam. He is a top 25 or 30 player [Depending on one's criteria] and a cornerstone for a play-off team. Great player.

There's a difference between slow starts vs coming back from injury imo. Siakam's performance from december onwards is much more indicative of his future performances. You're judging him based on his year's cumulative stats, so due to the hole he dug in the first month you can say he had a top 30 level year overall, but as a player moving forward i would say he is closer to top 15.

[Devilanche]

Unfortunately I think both side prefer their own player.

Can I clip this to post in every thread?

It works for pretty much all trades even if the value is off.

[Devilanche]

Curious to see how Brunson's pretty inept performance against the Suns this year in the PO and Clipps last year, while also factoring in his stellar play against the Jazz impacts his next contract

Sounds like he will get paid . Teams will just hope that his performance is somewhere in between but nearer to the jazz than the suns/clips version of performance .

[Colbinii]

People on this board do, people who follow the NBA as closely as I do do understand Pascal Siakam. He is a top 25 or 30 player [Depending on one's criteria] and a cornerstone for a play-off team. Great player.

There's a difference between slow starts vs coming back from injury imo. Siakam's performance from december onwards is much more indicative of his future performances. You're judging him based on his year's cumulative stats, so due to the hole he dug in the first month you can say he had a top 30 level year overall, but as a player moving forward i would say he is closer to top 15.

Okay. Sure, #22 closer to 15 than 30 but #22 in the league IS Top 30.

You guys love to argue over semantics and take exception to terms like fringe allstar [Which Siakam was this year] or Top X when Top X is completely subjective.

Who cares if someone says he is Top 30, Top 25 or Top 20--players should be ranked in tiers anyways and we all have our own way of assessing players.

[toooskies]

People on this board do, people who follow the NBA as closely as I do do understand Pascal Siakam. He is a top 25 or 30 player [Depending on one's criteria] and a cornerstone for a play-off team. Great player.

There's a difference between slow starts vs coming back from injury imo. Siakam's performance from december onwards is much more indicative of his future performances. You're judging him based on his year's cumulative stats, so due to the hole he dug in the first month you can say he had a top 30 level year overall, but as a player moving forward i would say he is closer to top 15.

Just be sure to account for Kawhi, AD, Kyrie, Simmons, Dame, PG13, Draymond, and others who didn't play enough to make all-NBA this year but certainly have the ability to if they play close to a full season.

[Godaddycurse]

People on this board do, people who follow the NBA as closely as I do do understand Pascal Siakam. He is a top 25 or 30 player [Depending on one's criteria] and a cornerstone for a play-off team. Great player.

There's a difference between slow starts vs coming back from injury imo. Siakam's performance from december onwards is much more indicative of his future performances. You're judging him based on his year's cumulative stats, so due to the hole he dug in the first month you can say he had a top 30 level year overall, but as a player moving forward i would say he is closer to top 15.

Just be sure to account for Kawhi, AD, Kyrie, Simmons, Dame, PG13, Draymond, and others who didn't play enough to make all-NBA this year but certainly have the ability to if they play close to a full season.

Availability/Durability is a (arguably most important) talent too. Siakam was a work horse. Can't really say the same for kawhi/ad etc

[HornetJail]

There's a difference between slow starts vs coming back from injury imo. Siakam's performance from december onwards is much more indicative of his future performances. You're judging him based on his year's cumulative stats, so due to the hole he dug in the first month you can say he had a top 30 level year overall, but as a player moving forward i would say he is closer to top 15.

Just be sure to account for Kawhi, AD, Kyrie, Simmons, Dame, PG13, Draymond, and others who didn't play enough to make all-NBA this year but certainly have the ability to if they play close to a full season.

Availability/Durability is a (arguably most important) talent too. Siakam was a work horse. Can't really say the same for kawhi/ad etc

that's a weird argument for someone who missed the first month plus of the season and took time to get back to normal this season

[Texas Chuck]

So fwiw I would have Siakam with more trade value than Bane. Obviously Bane is an incredible value on his contract, but I don't really think any team sees him as a future star so I don't see anyone giving up a premium asset for him. I could see a team potentially doing so for in exchange for Siakam.

I think at times we overrate the impact a contract has and underrate the value of top end talent.

Now as to where Siakam ranks in comparison with other top players, I'm not in that fight.

[Godaddycurse]

Just be sure to account for Kawhi, AD, Kyrie, Simmons, Dame, PG13, Draymond, and others who didn't play enough to make all-NBA this year but certainly have the ability to if they play close to a full season.

Availability/Durability is a (arguably most important) talent too. Siakam was a work horse. Can't really say the same for kawhi/ad etc

that's a weird argument for someone who missed the first month plus of the season and took time to get back to normal this season

He then played about 38 MPG and was the Raptors healthiest player. Ended up playing 10+games more than lebron/butler/durant etc

[toooskies]

Availability/Durability is a (arguably most important) talent too. Siakam was a work horse. Can't really say the same for kawhi/ad etc

that's a weird argument for someone who missed the first month plus of the season and took time to get back to normal this season

He then played about 38 MPG and was the Raptors healthiest player. Ended up playing 10+games more than lebron/butler/durant etc

The minutes Siakam played to get his stats is a slight negative, too. Bane actually outscored Siakam on a per-minute basis!

[Troubadour]

that's a weird argument for someone who missed the first month plus of the season and took time to get back to normal this season

He then played about 38 MPG and was the Raptors healthiest player. Ended up playing 10+games more than lebron/butler/durant etc

The minutes Siakam played to get his stats is a slight negative, too. Bane actually outscored Siakam on a per-minute basis!

Pascal Siakam had the best net rating of any Raptors starter. He was assisted on only 29% of his made 2PT field goals. For reference, that's lower than Kevin Durant, LeBron James, Joel Embiid, Devin Booker, Jayson Tatum, Steph Curry, Bradley Beal, Brandon Ingram, and many other top scorers. For the final two months of the season, Pascal led the Raptors in points, rebounds and assists per game.

He was the league leader in minutes because it was the only way the Raptors were going to win games consistently.

[Texas Chuck]

Playing big minutes when you are a clear positive in those minutes should never be used to lower a player's value, but only increase it.

And nobody in 2022 should be basing trade value on per game counting stats obviously.

[DoItALL9]

Would you rather have CP3 on his current contract or Russell Westbrook and James Harden on veteran minimum deals?

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[DoItALL9]

Would Jordan Poole be the perfect second guy for Luka offensively?

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