Shams: Watson to CLE, Strus to LAC, picks to DEN

[bgrep14]

I hate that the first is unprotected. Don't mind trying to roll a hard six, but I'm not emptying my wallet to do it.

I hope Watson works out. If he doesn't, it's going to be hard to justify keeping Altman around.

does "unprotected" matter nearly as much with the new draft rules?

And why should Altman’s job be on the line? He has done a very good job rebuilding this team post LeBron to one of the top teams in the East. The Donnovan Mitchell swing has been successful. And the team was in the eastern conference finals last year.

Now - do I love turning Garland into Harden, or going further into pick debt for Watson - I don’t. But Cleveland has a top-10ish player in his prime in a somewhat wide open eastern conference, so you kind of have to go for it.

In a perfect world, you would turn Harden and Allen into Myles Turner and Derrick White types - a 3 and D rim protector to better space the floor and a bigger combo guard next to Mitchell - but that would require Mobley developing into a true #2 scorer.

Garland is overpaid, injury prone, and a poor fit next to Mitchell. Trading him for Harden was the only reason they didn’t lose in Rd 1 last year and the only reason they were able to get Watson.

[MoneyTalks41890]

Is there a Nnaji+ 1st for a cheaper impactful wing deal out there for Denver that gets them out of the 2nd apron?

Looking at CamJ deals it’s hard to find an upgrade that does the same. Seems like betting on a bounce back for him is the best bet.

[jbk1234]

does "unprotected" matter nearly as much with the new draft rules?

And why should Altman’s job be on the line? He has done a very good job rebuilding this team post LeBron to one of the top teams in the East. The Donnovan Mitchell swing has been successful. And the team was in the eastern conference finals last year.

Now - do I love turning Garland into Harden, or going further into pick debt for Watson - I don’t. But Cleveland has a top-10ish player in his prime in a somewhat wide open eastern conference, so you kind of have to go for it.

In a perfect world, you would turn Harden and Allen into Myles Turner and Derrick White types - a 3 and D rim protector to better space the floor and a bigger combo guard next to Mitchell - but that would require Mobley developing into a true #2 scorer.

Garland is overpaid, injury prone, and a poor fit next to Mitchell. Trading him for Harden was the only reason they didn’t lose in Rd 1 last year and the only reason they were able to get Watson.

If Garland can get and stay healthy, he's going to make some of these takes look very foolish. Also, the Cavs had not lost in the first round in the prior two years with Garland. I suspect the Raptors would not have defended Mitchell like that with Garland next to him.

[jayjaysee]

Good for Cleveland to get a good fitting locked up young starting level player and force themselves to stay under first apron.

Denver got good value, but still hate the move.

[toooskies]

This offseason the Cavs effectively traded Schroder, Wade, Ellis, Strus, a 1st and a 2nd for Watson, Hezonja, and cap savings (and Whitmore if he stays on the roster).

The starting lineup looks pretty good but depth is going to require one or two of Porter, Proctor, Thomas, Bryant, Hezonja, Tomlin to step up.

[Scoot McGroot]

Solid return for the Nuggets imo

Question for the cap experts- what TPE does Denver create with this trade? I know BYC comes into play somehow since Watson was on a rookie contract before this. Do they get a TPE valued at 1/2 of Watson's 1st year, the entire Watson 1st year?

or was there a way to create a Strus sized TPE by making this "separate deals" where they apply BYC rules to trade Watson for Strus, and then they dump Strus for nothing?

1) they dont get any tpe if they stay in 2nd apron
2) they cant match Watson alone for strus due to BYC, need to send out Nnaji too
3) TPE for watson would be 1/2 of the first year salary (see jerami grant to Detroit from years back.. 20M salary, 10M TPE created from BYC)

They actually will create a TPE equal to "the greater of 50% of the first year salary of the new deal or the previous year's salary". So, 50% of whatever year 1 works out to be (which you listed in #3). The issue is that if they use ANY of it, they immediately hard cap themselves at the 2nd apron this year, as it would then be receiving a player contract in return for signing and trading a player away. It will be valid for one year though, and if they use it starting the day after the last day of this regular season (as in this next offseason, draft or free agency timing), then they would trigger a hard cap at the 1st apron for 2027/28 for using a TPE generated in a "previous season". So, it will exist, but will come with negatives if used.

The Reese inclusion does not trigger the hard cap as he can be acquired via the minimum exception.

At no point could the Nuggets have taken back Strus themselves, as they were already over the 2nd apron before all of this, and would have had to send out the equivalent of Strus' salary as well as the $3m or so necessary to get under the 2nd apron. They would have been immediately hard capped at the 2nd apron if they took back Strus.

[jbk1234]

Solid return for the Nuggets imo

Question for the cap experts- what TPE does Denver create with this trade? I know BYC comes into play somehow since Watson was on a rookie contract before this. Do they get a TPE valued at 1/2 of Watson's 1st year, the entire Watson 1st year?

or was there a way to create a Strus sized TPE by making this "separate deals" where they apply BYC rules to trade Watson for Strus, and then they dump Strus for nothing?

1) they dont get any tpe if they stay in 2nd apron
2) they cant match Watson alone for strus due to BYC, need to send out Nnaji too
3) TPE for watson would be 1/2 of the first year salary (see jerami grant to Detroit from years back.. 20M salary, 10M TPE created from BYC)

They actually will create a TPE equal to "the greater of 50% of the first year salary of the new deal or the previous year's salary". So, 50% of whatever year 1 works out to be (which you listed in #3). The issue is that if they use ANY of it, they immediately hard cap themselves at the 2nd apron this year, as it would then be receiving a player contract in return for signing and trading a player away. It will be valid for one year though, and if they use it starting the day after the last day of this regular season (as in this next offseason, draft or free agency timing), then they would trigger a hard cap at the 1st apron for 2027/28 for using a TPE generated in a "previous season". So, it will exist, but will come with negatives if used.

The Reese inclusion does not trigger the hard cap as he can be acquired via the minimum exception.

At no point could the Nuggets have taken back Strus themselves, as they were already over the 2nd apron before all of this, and would have had to send out the equivalent of Strus' salary as well as the $3m or so necessary to get under the 2nd apron. They would have been immediately hard capped at the 2nd apron if they took back Strus.

Yeah, my read is the first is unprotected because the Cavs declined to take back Nnaji.

[Scoot McGroot]

1) they dont get any tpe if they stay in 2nd apron
2) they cant match Watson alone for strus due to BYC, need to send out Nnaji too
3) TPE for watson would be 1/2 of the first year salary (see jerami grant to Detroit from years back.. 20M salary, 10M TPE created from BYC)

They actually will create a TPE equal to "the greater of 50% of the first year salary of the new deal or the previous year's salary". So, 50% of whatever year 1 works out to be (which you listed in #3). The issue is that if they use ANY of it, they immediately hard cap themselves at the 2nd apron this year, as it would then be receiving a player contract in return for signing and trading a player away. It will be valid for one year though, and if they use it starting the day after the last day of this regular season (as in this next offseason, draft or free agency timing), then they would trigger a hard cap at the 1st apron for 2027/28 for using a TPE generated in a "previous season". So, it will exist, but will come with negatives if used.

The Reese inclusion does not trigger the hard cap as he can be acquired via the minimum exception.

At no point could the Nuggets have taken back Strus themselves, as they were already over the 2nd apron before all of this, and would have had to send out the equivalent of Strus' salary as well as the $3m or so necessary to get under the 2nd apron. They would have been immediately hard capped at the 2nd apron if they took back Strus.

Yeah, my read is the first is unprotected because the Cavs declined to take back Nnaji.

Very well could be.

[jayjaysee]

Sion and the 2027 Miami first for Nnaji and the 2031 Cleveland first? Sion, Liam and the 2027 Miami first for Nnaji, some seconds and the 2031 Cleveland first?

Something like that? Eh though.

[Scoot McGroot]

Bobby Marks reporting (or supposing?) that Cleveland will stretch waive Whitmore. Which, I get. But man, they really need to see if there's anyone that would eat his contract for cash, or a right to swap 2nds in 2033. It's about all they can offer, but they really need to dump that contract rather than stretch it over 3.

[jbk1234]

Bobby Marks reporting (or supposing?) that Cleveland will stretch waive Whitmore. Which, I get. But man, they really need to see if there's anyone that would eat his contract for cash, or a right to swap 2nds in 2033. It's about all they can offer, but they really need to dump that contract rather than stretch it over 3.

There's a small chance that Whitmore makes a roster, gets a league minimum deal, and lowers that cap hit. They paid cash and a second to turn Schroder into Whitmore already.

[Scoot McGroot]

Bobby Marks reporting (or supposing?) that Cleveland will stretch waive Whitmore. Which, I get. But man, they really need to see if there's anyone that would eat his contract for cash, or a right to swap 2nds in 2033. It's about all they can offer, but they really need to dump that contract rather than stretch it over 3.

There's a small chance that Whitmore makes a roster, gets a league minimum deal, and lowers that cap hit. They paid cash and a second to turn Schroder into Whitmore already.

If he makes a roster on a league minimum deal, there's almost no salary to "set off". The set off amount is equal to one half of the salary difference over a 1 year veteran minimum salary ($2,185,116) from the player's new salary ($2,449,421). In this case, Cleveland would get to set off $132,152.50. If his salary is stretched, that set off amount (for salary difference earned in this season, only) would be split equally over the entire 3 year stretch. He'd still count as either dead salary of $5,326,157.50 if not stretched, or $1,775,385.84 annually for 3 seasons.

[jbk1234]

Bobby Marks reporting (or supposing?) that Cleveland will stretch waive Whitmore. Which, I get. But man, they really need to see if there's anyone that would eat his contract for cash, or a right to swap 2nds in 2033. It's about all they can offer, but they really need to dump that contract rather than stretch it over 3.

There's a small chance that Whitmore makes a roster, gets a league minimum deal, and lowers that cap hit. They paid cash and a second to turn Schroder into Whitmore already.

If he makes a roster on a league minimum deal, there's almost no salary to "set off". The set off amount is equal to one half of the salary difference over a 1 year veteran minimum salary ($2,185,116) from the player's new salary ($2,449,421). In this case, Cleveland would get to set off $132,152.50. If his salary is stretched, that set off amount (for salary difference earned in this season, only) would be split equally over the entire 3 year stretch. He'd still count as either dead salary of $5,326,157.50 if not stretched, or $1,775,385.84 annually for 3 seasons.

What happens if he's also signed in years two and three?

[Scoot McGroot]

There's a small chance that Whitmore makes a roster, gets a league minimum deal, and lowers that cap hit. They paid cash and a second to turn Schroder into Whitmore already.

If he makes a roster on a league minimum deal, there's almost no salary to "set off". The set off amount is equal to one half of the salary difference over a 1 year veteran minimum salary ($2,185,116) from the player's new salary ($2,449,421). In this case, Cleveland would get to set off $132,152.50. If his salary is stretched, that set off amount (for salary difference earned in this season, only) would be split equally over the entire 3 year stretch. He'd still count as either dead salary of $5,326,157.50 if not stretched, or $1,775,385.84 annually for 3 seasons.

What happens if he's also signed in years two and three?

Nothing. Set off only counts for the years he would've originally been under contract, which is just this year.

[Billl]

I’m terms of value, the nuggets did great here. An unprotected pick for a role player? Sure it’s 4 years out, but that’s actually better than a guaranteed late first next year.

Unfortunately, they backed themselves into a position where they are shedding talent for future assets during the prime of a MVP player. The level of cap mismanagement here is just awful.

[jbk1234]

I’m terms of value, the nuggets did great here. An unprotected pick for a role player? Sure it’s 4 years out, but that’s actually better than a guaranteed late first next year.

Unfortunately, they backed themselves into a position where they are shedding talent for future assets during the prime of a MVP player. The level of cap mismanagement here is just awful.

The problem with contending for a half decade or longer is that it's all but inevitable that you're going to run into cap issues and be depleted of assets. The Murray extension is the one where you didn't need the benefit of hindsight, but if Braun doesn't have a bad seasons immediately coming of his extension, things could have played out very differently.

[Dr Positivity]

Great deal for Nuggets but maybe they would be best trading that pick for win now players

[MoneyTalks41890]

I’m terms of value, the nuggets did great here. An unprotected pick for a role player? Sure it’s 4 years out, but that’s actually better than a guaranteed late first next year.

Unfortunately, they backed themselves into a position where they are shedding talent for future assets during the prime of a MVP player. The level of cap mismanagement here is just awful.

The problem with contending for a half decade or longer is that it's all but inevitable that you're going to run into cap issues and be depleted of assets. The Murray extension is the one where you didn't need the benefit of hindsight, but if Braun doesn't have a bad seasons immediately coming of his extension, things could have played out very differently.

The Nuggets didn’t have to trade their 2027 and 2029 1sts to OKC for late firsts and salary relief. I’d argue those were two large tax related moves that caused the depletion and weren’t primarily about getting better. And yes the tax issues matter, but it’s not being smart about when to pay it, they just refused to pay it.

[HornetJail]

Sion and the 2027 Miami first for Nnaji and the 2031 Cleveland first? Sion, Liam and the 2027 Miami first for Nnaji, some seconds and the 2031 Cleveland first?

Something like that? Eh though.

I'd do the first one for the higher upside pick. Would hurt to lose our only perimeter defender but we're clearly not building a roster for anytime soon

[bgrep14]

Bobby Marks reporting (or supposing?) that Cleveland will stretch waive Whitmore. Which, I get. But man, they really need to see if there's anyone that would eat his contract for cash, or a right to swap 2nds in 2033. It's about all they can offer, but they really need to dump that contract rather than stretch it over 3.

They should keep Whitmore we need guys like him. If anything move Porter Jr for a 2nd.