Do you agree with hinkie's rebuild plan for the sixers?

[HartfordWhalers]

The difference to me is he can actually not turn the ball over at an obscene rate. I'd still trade him for whatever Philly'd offer, but that's more of me not wanting to deal with his contract than anything.

Yeah, but even if you want to bake in his turnovers into any all in stat:
VORP: Waiters is last.
WS/48:Middle of the pack
PER: Towards the bottom
BPM: In the middle

Waiters is not better than the guards Philly has right now. In fact, most metrics have him worse. Along with older and more expensive.

If you actually think that's the case, OK, but I'm really not believing it. And you know how low I am on Dion. He's also the best defender of the group and least turnover prone given his role (Stauskas turns it over less, but creates less too). Also, if you're doing this, use Dion's from this season. He still ranks pretty similarly, but has improved.

I don't really want to use this season as I don't particularly trust a sample that small.

I have no idea what I am getting from Stauskas still -- first handful of games he looked like a well rounded sg that could be something solid, last handful he looked like a guy heading out of the league. McConnell has looked good in preseason and the season, but it is early still and teams are realizing he cannot finish on his own drives which is going to start cutting off those passing lanes.

With Waiters, I think we have a good idea of exactly who he is given his career already. I'm not going to trust his 13/28 3 point shooting (46.4%) over his career average that is 33%.

Should be interesting to see come January/February or so when we have a bigger data sample of this year, but yeah, I'm not a believer in Dion. That said, I think he can outperform Wroten this year, but shouldn't be as positive as Marshall or McConnell who as passing pg's will fill a useful role while Waiters seems a lot more like a jack of all trades (if that), master of none. What Stauskas does I have no idea.

[bondom34]

I don't really want to use this season as I don't particularly trust a sample that small.

I have no idea what I am getting from Stauskas still -- first handful of games he looked like a well rounded sg that could be something solid, last handful he looked like a guy heading out of the league. McConnell has looked good in preseason and the season, but it is early still and teams are realizing he cannot finish on his own drives which is going to start cutting off those passing lanes.

With Waiters, I think we have a good idea of exactly who he is given his career already. I'm not going to trust his 13/28 3 point shooting (46.4%) over his career average that is 33%.

Should be interesting to see come January/February or so when we have a bigger data sample of this year, but yeah, I'm not a believer in Dion. That said, I think he can outperform Wroten this year, but shouldn't be as positive as Marshall or McConnell who as passing pg's will fill a useful role while Waiters seems a lot more like a jack of all trades (if that), master of none. What Stauskas does I have no idea.

I think the bold is my biggest disagreement. I think I'm at the point where I've seen enough Stauskas to feel like he's just not good, he's a shooter who can't particularly shoot and can't create much at all. Wroten is a pretty known quantity too, though I'd actually trade him for Dion straight up most likely, just because I'm sick of Dion. McConnell intrigues me and I'm still unsure there, and Marshall may be better but right now isn't healthy. I still think of all your current options Dion would be the best, but that's a complete lack of my faith in what Philly has on the perimeter through 10 or so games. You know I was all for what they're doing but its getting to a tipping point where I think criticism of it is pretty fair considering it is at some point hampering growth of anyone due to the complete incompetence of guard play.

Also, my perfect trade right now is Waiters to Philly, McGary and Novak maybe to somewhere, and a bench wing coming back to OKC, but that's neither here nor there in this thread.

[HartfordWhalers]

I have no idea what I am getting from Stauskas still -- first handful of games he looked like a well rounded sg that could be something solid, last handful he looked like a guy heading out of the league.

I think the bold is my biggest disagreement. I think I'm at the point where I've seen enough Stauskas to feel like he's just not good, he's a shooter who can't particularly shoot and can't create much at all. Wroten is a pretty known quantity too, though I'd actually trade him for Dion straight up most likely, just because I'm sick of Dion. McConnell intrigues me and I'm still unsure there, and Marshall may be better but right now isn't healthy. I still think of all your current options Dion would be the best, but that's a complete lack of my faith in what Philly has on the perimeter through 10 or so games. You know I was all for what they're doing but its getting to a tipping point where I think criticism of it is pretty fair considering it is at some point hampering growth of anyone due to the complete incompetence of guard play.

Also, my perfect trade right now is Waiters to Philly, McGary and Novak maybe to somewhere, and a bench wing coming back to OKC, but that's neither here nor there in this thread.

Look at something like his gamescores confirms what I saw --
First 5 games 4 games scores 8.9 or higher -- he was rebounding and getting assists and could drive versus just being a spot up shooter
Last 6 games 5 games 2.9 or lower -- he didn't rebound, make passes, or drive.

The truth is probably somewhere in the middle but how far into the complete sg versus Hollis Thompson shooter only scale he is I have no idea.

His player tracking is still showing good defense -- http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/203917/tracking/defense/

Meanwhile he is missing a ton of wide open and mostly open looks (22.6% on 4-6 foot open 3's for instance is amazing) -- http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/203917/tracking/shots/

Not sure either of those were expected.

[bondom34]

I have no idea what I am getting from Stauskas still -- first handful of games he looked like a well rounded sg that could be something solid, last handful he looked like a guy heading out of the league.

I think the bold is my biggest disagreement. I think I'm at the point where I've seen enough Stauskas to feel like he's just not good, he's a shooter who can't particularly shoot and can't create much at all. Wroten is a pretty known quantity too, though I'd actually trade him for Dion straight up most likely, just because I'm sick of Dion. McConnell intrigues me and I'm still unsure there, and Marshall may be better but right now isn't healthy. I still think of all your current options Dion would be the best, but that's a complete lack of my faith in what Philly has on the perimeter through 10 or so games. You know I was all for what they're doing but its getting to a tipping point where I think criticism of it is pretty fair considering it is at some point hampering growth of anyone due to the complete incompetence of guard play.

Also, my perfect trade right now is Waiters to Philly, McGary and Novak maybe to somewhere, and a bench wing coming back to OKC, but that's neither here nor there in this thread.

Look at something like his gamescores confirms what I saw --
First 5 games 4 games scores 8.9 or higher -- he was rebounding and getting assists and could drive versus just being a spot up shooter
Last 6 games 5 games 2.9 or lower -- he didn't rebound, make passes, or drive.

The truth is probably somewhere in the middle but how far into the complete sg versus Hollis Thompson shooter only scale he is I have no idea.

His player tracking is still showing good defense -- http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/203917/tracking/defense/

Meanwhile he is missing a ton of wide open and mostly open looks (22.6% on 4-6 foot open 3's for instance is amazing) -- http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/203917/tracking/shots/

Not sure either of those were expected.

He really overall didn't shoot much differently last season, I'm thinking this was one of the reasons the Kings just let him go. As for the defense, his PT numbers are still worse than Waiters, and fwiw I don't really trust the player tracking stuff (the issues with documenting "nearest defender" are pretty well shown). http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/203079/tracking/defense/
As for game scores, he's had about 10-15 career games over a game score of 10, which is a pretty average NBA player's game. Dion had 22 of those in his rookie year alone.

[HartfordWhalers]

I think the bold is my biggest disagreement. I think I'm at the point where I've seen enough Stauskas to feel like he's just not good, he's a shooter who can't particularly shoot and can't create much at all. Wroten is a pretty known quantity too, though I'd actually trade him for Dion straight up most likely, just because I'm sick of Dion. McConnell intrigues me and I'm still unsure there, and Marshall may be better but right now isn't healthy. I still think of all your current options Dion would be the best, but that's a complete lack of my faith in what Philly has on the perimeter through 10 or so games. You know I was all for what they're doing but its getting to a tipping point where I think criticism of it is pretty fair considering it is at some point hampering growth of anyone due to the complete incompetence of guard play.

Also, my perfect trade right now is Waiters to Philly, McGary and Novak maybe to somewhere, and a bench wing coming back to OKC, but that's neither here nor there in this thread.

Look at something like his gamescores confirms what I saw --
First 5 games 4 games scores 8.9 or higher -- he was rebounding and getting assists and could drive versus just being a spot up shooter
Last 6 games 5 games 2.9 or lower -- he didn't rebound, make passes, or drive.

The truth is probably somewhere in the middle but how far into the complete sg versus Hollis Thompson shooter only scale he is I have no idea.

His player tracking is still showing good defense -- http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/203917/tracking/defense/

Meanwhile he is missing a ton of wide open and mostly open looks (22.6% on 4-6 foot open 3's for instance is amazing) -- http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/203917/tracking/shots/

Not sure either of those were expected.

He really overall didn't shoot much differently last season, I'm thinking this was one of the reasons the Kings just let him go. As for the defense, his PT numbers are still worse than Waiters, and fwiw I don't really trust the player tracking stuff (the issues with documenting "nearest defender" are pretty well shown). http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/203079/tracking/defense/
As for game scores, he's had about 10-15 career games over a game score of 10, which is a pretty average NBA player's game. Dion had 22 of those in his rookie year alone.

Dion was a negative defender in player tracking last year on the bigger sample, which matched his negative drpm

(Also, looking at Stauskas numbers last year, he shot 40.5% on 3's open at least 4 feet. This year that number is 28.6%. I wouldn;t say that is the same.)

[bondom34]

Look at something like his gamescores confirms what I saw --
First 5 games 4 games scores 8.9 or higher -- he was rebounding and getting assists and could drive versus just being a spot up shooter
Last 6 games 5 games 2.9 or lower -- he didn't rebound, make passes, or drive.

The truth is probably somewhere in the middle but how far into the complete sg versus Hollis Thompson shooter only scale he is I have no idea.

His player tracking is still showing good defense -- http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/203917/tracking/defense/

Meanwhile he is missing a ton of wide open and mostly open looks (22.6% on 4-6 foot open 3's for instance is amazing) -- http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/203917/tracking/shots/

Not sure either of those were expected.

He really overall didn't shoot much differently last season, I'm thinking this was one of the reasons the Kings just let him go. As for the defense, his PT numbers are still worse than Waiters, and fwiw I don't really trust the player tracking stuff (the issues with documenting "nearest defender" are pretty well shown). http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/203079/tracking/defense/
As for game scores, he's had about 10-15 career games over a game score of 10, which is a pretty average NBA player's game. Dion had 22 of those in his rookie year alone.

Dion was a negative defender in player tracking last year on the bigger sample, which matched his negative drpm

So was Stauskas. And both guys are on different teams now. And Stauskas's DRPM was actually much worse.

[HartfordWhalers]

So, sounds like we are in agreement. Waiters is Stauskas without the upside of youth or the hope that Stauskas outside shooting comes back, on a more expensive contract, but with a higher floor that is still bad.

[bondom34]

Not really, I think Waiters is just better. Stauskas is Waiters, without the athletic ability or ability to create as much. So a really poor man's Waiters.

[basketballwacko2]

Not really, I think Waiters is just better. Stauskas is Waiters, without the athletic ability or ability to create as much. So a really poor man's Waiters.

Did you see what the Pacers did to Philly last night? PG dominated, the Sixers had 29 turnovers at one point their coach looked like he was gonna just toss his clip board and walk off the court.

[HartfordWhalers]

Not really, I think Waiters is just better. Stauskas is Waiters, without the athletic ability or ability to create as much. So a really poor man's Waiters.

Did you see what the Pacers did to Philly last night? PG dominated, the Sixers had 29 turnovers at one point their coach looked like he was gonna just toss his clip board and walk off the court.

Definitely seemed like the worst game of the season for Philly. The two before that were close losses to Dallas and SA.

[BullyKing]

Not really, I think Waiters is just better. Stauskas is Waiters, without the athletic ability or ability to create as much. So a really poor man's Waiters.

Did you see what the Pacers did to Philly last night? PG dominated, the Sixers had 29 turnovers at one point their coach looked like he was gonna just toss his clip board and walk off the court.

It's amazing how little what you said has to do with what you quoted. It's almost as if you were just looking for a reason to make a negative post about the Sixers.

[basketballwacko2]

Not really, I think Waiters is just better. Stauskas is Waiters, without the athletic ability or ability to create as much. So a really poor man's Waiters.

Did you see what the Pacers did to Philly last night? PG dominated, the Sixers had 29 turnovers at one point their coach looked like he was gonna just toss his clip board and walk off the court.

Definitely seemed like the worst game of the season for Philly. The two before that were close losses to Dallas and SA.

Yeah they had been playing teams tough and close, but it seemed the Pacers defense and PG really disrupted them. Anyone who thinks PG is not back should look at that stat line and watch the tape of that game.

[basketballwacko2]

Not really, I think Waiters is just better. Stauskas is Waiters, without the athletic ability or ability to create as much. So a really poor man's Waiters.

Did you see what the Pacers did to Philly last night? PG dominated, the Sixers had 29 turnovers at one point their coach looked like he was gonna just toss his clip board and walk off the court.

It's amazing how little what you said has to do with what you quoted. It's almost as if you were just looking for a reason to make a negative post about the Sixers.

You again? I was asking bondom34 a question since he's told me on many occasions that the Pacers are his 2nd favorite team. I was not talking to you.

[HartfordWhalers]

Did you see what the Pacers did to Philly last night? PG dominated, the Sixers had 29 turnovers at one point their coach looked like he was gonna just toss his clip board and walk off the court.

Definitely seemed like the worst game of the season for Philly. The two before that were close losses to Dallas and SA.

Yeah they had been playing teams tough and close, but it seemed the Pacers defense and PG really disrupted them. Anyone who thinks PG is not back should look at that stat line and watch the tape of that game.

Oh, George went ham. He was unstoppable. I hate over reacting to 1 game but I'm tempted to increase what I expect from Indiana based upon that 1 game and George being a lot further along than I thought he would be at this point.

[Texas Chuck]

Not really, I think Waiters is just better. Stauskas is Waiters, without the athletic ability or ability to create as much. So a really poor man's Waiters.

Did you see what the Pacers did to Philly last night? PG dominated, the Sixers had 29 turnovers at one point their coach looked like he was gonna just toss his clip board and walk off the court.

Definitely seemed like the worst game of the season for Philly. The two before that were close losses to Dallas and SA.

yeah they gave Dallas a tougher game than it needed to be, but the poor guard play was very evident. Dallas only survives that game because Philly turned the ball over a billion times (note: Dallas a very low turnover team was also extremely sloppy in that regard.)

But its not news to Philly that their guards aren't very good. The value in the draft has been with the bigs and so they have drafted to value. Not something I'd be overly concerned with today.

[HartfordWhalers]

Did you see what the Pacers did to Philly last night? PG dominated, the Sixers had 29 turnovers at one point their coach looked like he was gonna just toss his clip board and walk off the court.

Definitely seemed like the worst game of the season for Philly. The two before that were close losses to Dallas and SA.

yeah they gave Dallas a tougher game than it needed to be, but the poor guard play was very evident. Dallas only survives that game because Philly turned the ball over a billion times (note: Dallas a very low turnover team was also extremely sloppy in that regard.)

But its not news to Philly that their guards aren't very good. The value in the draft has been with the bigs and so they have drafted to value. Not something I'd be overly concerned with today.

Yeah, long term it will be very interesting to see what they do next draft. In the short run, getting Kendall Marshall back might help. Although if Wroten gets back first, god help us all?

[basketballwacko2]

Definitely seemed like the worst game of the season for Philly. The two before that were close losses to Dallas and SA.

Yeah they had been playing teams tough and close, but it seemed the Pacers defense and PG really disrupted them. Anyone who thinks PG is not back should look at that stat line and watch the tape of that game.

Oh, George went ham. He was unstoppable. I hate over reacting to 1 game but I'm tempted to increase what I expect from Indiana based upon that 1 game and George being a lot further along than I thought he would be at this point.

He's up to 8 games in a row with 26 or more points, but he's not just a scorer he's a all around great player. The kid put in a massive amount of work to get back and exceed where he was before the injury. There was one really funny play last night when PG broke Stauskas's ankles there's a video of it one the Sixers page on ESPN.com.

[basketballwacko2]

Definitely seemed like the worst game of the season for Philly. The two before that were close losses to Dallas and SA.

yeah they gave Dallas a tougher game than it needed to be, but the poor guard play was very evident. Dallas only survives that game because Philly turned the ball over a billion times (note: Dallas a very low turnover team was also extremely sloppy in that regard.)

But its not news to Philly that their guards aren't very good. The value in the draft has been with the bigs and so they have drafted to value. Not something I'd be overly concerned with today.

Yeah, long term it will be very interesting to see what they do next draft. In the short run, getting Kendall Marshall back might help. Although if Wroten gets back first, god help us all?

I saw that they have 4 #1 picks in 2016.

[Texas Chuck]

yeah PG looks like he's not ready to concede best 2-way wing to Kawhi just yet.... Makes me wonder if Indy will be a buyer at the deadline.

[HartfordWhalers]

yeah they gave Dallas a tougher game than it needed to be, but the poor guard play was very evident. Dallas only survives that game because Philly turned the ball over a billion times (note: Dallas a very low turnover team was also extremely sloppy in that regard.)

But its not news to Philly that their guards aren't very good. The value in the draft has been with the bigs and so they have drafted to value. Not something I'd be overly concerned with today.

Yeah, long term it will be very interesting to see what they do next draft. In the short run, getting Kendall Marshall back might help. Although if Wroten gets back first, god help us all?

I saw that they have 4 #1 picks in 2016.

Yeah, they should get OKC's and Miami's but LAL's looks like a coin toss. Which is going to be a massively important coin toss, as its basically 50-50 to get a pick at 4 or 5.

But obviously 2 top 5 picks would be a massive change, especially when you think that this Philly rebuild has so far only played 1 guy picked in the top 5.