Thoughts in General, Rumors, etc 4.0

[BullyKing]

...could play in Europe and get paid

This isn't true. You need clearance that you are not under contract to sign in Europe, or China, or the NBA, or even the Gleague.

Okay, but the underlying point is that the Sixers need Simmons to do more than just report as Harden did. They need him to report and buy in.

If he doesn't buy in, he can be suspended for conduct detrimental to the team and it wouldn't shock me if Silver said that also triggered tolling of the contract.

[K_chile22]

This isn't true. You need clearance that you are not under contract to sign in Europe, or China, or the NBA, or even the Gleague.

Okay, but the underlying point is that the Sixers need Simmons to do more than just report as Harden did. They need him to report and buy in.

If he doesn't buy in, he can be suspended for conduct detrimental to the team and it wouldn't shock me if Silver said that also triggered tolling of the contract.

you can't fine/suspend someone for not trying, good luck getting the NBAPA to go with that

[BullyKing]

Okay, but the underlying point is that the Sixers need Simmons to do more than just report as Harden did. They need him to report and buy in.

If he doesn't buy in, he can be suspended for conduct detrimental to the team and it wouldn't shock me if Silver said that also triggered tolling of the contract.

you can't fine/suspend someone for not trying, good luck getting the NBAPA to go with that

Conduct detrimental to the team is the most vague phrase out there and literally anything can fit into it. If the guy just sits down at midcourt during live game play or refuses to run up and down the court, how is that conduct not detrimental to the team?

[jbk1234]

This isn't true. You need clearance that you are not under contract to sign in Europe, or China, or the NBA, or even the Gleague.

Okay, but the underlying point is that the Sixers need Simmons to do more than just report as Harden did. They need him to report and buy in.

If he doesn't buy in, he can be suspended for conduct detrimental to the team and it wouldn't shock me if Silver said that also triggered tolling of the contract.

I mean Harden reported and played, but it was uninspired. I don't know that Silver is going to do anything about that scenario. Less than full effort is given by players every season.

[BullyKing]

Okay, but the underlying point is that the Sixers need Simmons to do more than just report as Harden did. They need him to report and buy in.

If he doesn't buy in, he can be suspended for conduct detrimental to the team and it wouldn't shock me if Silver said that also triggered tolling of the contract.

I mean Harden reported and played, but it was uninspired. I don't know that Silver is going to do anything about that scenario. Less than full effort is given by players every season.

Harden's numbers in Houston and Brooklyn last year are nearly identical notwithstanding that he shot a little worse in Houston though that can easily be explained by a small sample size and lack of training camp.

[K_chile22]

If he doesn't buy in, he can be suspended for conduct detrimental to the team and it wouldn't shock me if Silver said that also triggered tolling of the contract.

you can't fine/suspend someone for not trying, good luck getting the NBAPA to go with that

Conduct detrimental to the team is the most vague phrase out there and literally anything can fit into it. If the guy just sits down at midcourt during live game play or refuses to run up and down the court, how is that conduct not detrimental to the team?

how dumb do you think Ben Simmons is? plus, those suspensions/fines can be fought by the NBAPA. If ben just kind of jogs around and has a general 'aw shucks, they scored' attitude it's impossible to prove that he's not trying. NBAPA will say 'Ben are you trying?' He will say 'yes', the NBAPA will fight it and win. From that point their only option is to send him home WITH pay because, again, the NBAPA will not allow them to not pay him if he's willing to report to the team. Seems like you're ignoring the players associations power here. The current situation where they can withhold payments due to failure to provide services is much better for the sixers.

[BullyKing]

you can't fine/suspend someone for not trying, good luck getting the NBAPA to go with that

Conduct detrimental to the team is the most vague phrase out there and literally anything can fit into it. If the guy just sits down at midcourt during live game play or refuses to run up and down the court, how is that conduct not detrimental to the team?

how dumb do you think Ben Simmons is? plus, those suspensions/fines can be fought by the NBAPA. If ben just kind of jogs around and has a general 'aw shucks, they scored' attitude it's impossible to prove that he's not trying. NBAPA will say 'Ben are you trying?' He will say 'yes', the NBAPA will fight it and win. From that point their only option is to send him home WITH pay because, again, the NBAPA will not allow them to not pay him if he's willing to report to the team. Seems like you're ignoring the players associations power here. The current situation where they can withhold payments due to failure to provide services is much better for the sixers.

The players association doesn't determine this. Ultimately an arbitrator would and if he is loafing it enough that the Sixers actually did this, I'm sure there is a mountain of evidence they could compile to show it objectively such as comparison of player metric tracking.

The reality is that if he shows up, he'll likely play full speed like they all do. It's harder than you think to consciously do something one way where you've spent you're entire life subconsciously doing it a different way. It's not like when you're going after a loose ball that you typically have enough time to sit there and consciously decide whether you are going to dive for it or not. The physical memory is too ingrained and instinctual.

[jbk1234]

If he doesn't buy in, he can be suspended for conduct detrimental to the team and it wouldn't shock me if Silver said that also triggered tolling of the contract.

I mean Harden reported and played, but it was uninspired. I don't know that Silver is going to do anything about that scenario. Less than full effort is given by players every season.

Harden's numbers in Houston and Brooklyn last year are nearly identical notwithstanding that he shot a little worse in Houston though that can easily be explained by a small sample size and lack of training camp.

There were plenty of TV clips from Harden's time in Houston at the beginning of last season where he didn't appear to be giving it his all. I'm not talking about completely dogging it, I'm talking about giving a Batum-in-Charlotte level effort. The Sixers need Ben to buy in almost 100% physically, mentally, and emotionally for Morey's plan of *look he's even better* to work.

The Rockets said they were prepared for it to get uncomfortable with Harden, but I don't know that them waiting for Harden to play the way he did changed his trade value one iota.

[K_chile22]

Conduct detrimental to the team is the most vague phrase out there and literally anything can fit into it. If the guy just sits down at midcourt during live game play or refuses to run up and down the court, how is that conduct not detrimental to the team?

how dumb do you think Ben Simmons is? plus, those suspensions/fines can be fought by the NBAPA. If ben just kind of jogs around and has a general 'aw shucks, they scored' attitude it's impossible to prove that he's not trying. NBAPA will say 'Ben are you trying?' He will say 'yes', the NBAPA will fight it and win. From that point their only option is to send him home WITH pay because, again, the NBAPA will not allow them to not pay him if he's willing to report to the team. Seems like you're ignoring the players associations power here. The current situation where they can withhold payments due to failure to provide services is much better for the sixers.

The players association doesn't determine this. Ultimately an arbitrator would and if he is loafing it enough that the Sixers actually did this, I'm sure there is a mountain of evidence they could compile to show it objectively such as comparison of player metric tracking.

That would be terrible evidence. How hard a player is trying is purely subjective to everyone but the player. Even if an arbitrator would buy these hypothetical metrics (heavily, heavily doubt they would take them seriously) Ben would say "I'm moving less because my knee hurts'. Even if a panel of doctors says he's fine, there's no way to prove his knee doesn't hurt and that isn't preventing him from hitting any thresholds in any metrics. I didn't say the NBAPA would decide, I said they would win.

Allowing a fine or suspension without pay would open a can of worms no one wants open.

[K_chile22]

The reality is that if he shows up, he'll likely play full speed like they all do. It's harder than you think to consciously do something one way where you've spent you're entire life subconsciously doing it a different way. It's not like when you're going after a loose ball that you typically have enough time to sit there and consciously decide whether you are going to dive for it or not. The physical memory is too ingrained and instinctual.

... Seems like you're just speaking your hopes and dreams out into existence and not being realistic so not sure there's much point in discussing this anymore

[bondom34]

Yeah I don't think you can prove someone didn't try.

I think it's a different thing that Simmons not trying doesn't really change much in terms of his leverage to me. Like, if Morey won't trade him until offers reach a certain level, him playing poorly doesn't help that and I'm not sure Morey's the guy who's going to cave there.

[Scoot McGroot]

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[K_chile22]

Yeah I don't think you can prove someone didn't try.

I think it's a different thing that Simmons not trying doesn't really change much in terms of his leverage to me. Like, if Morey won't trade him until offers reach a certain level, him playing poorly doesn't help that and I'm not sure Morey's the guy who's going to cave there.

I think the only change that would happen is in that situation they'd start having to pay Simmons to not play because he is willing to report, vs right now they don't

[K_chile22]

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Can't really see why they would waive him outside of tax concerns which Balmer usually doesn't care about. Even if he looks as washed as he did last year, it's better to keep the salary slot alive than have $4M of dead money

[Godaddycurse]

I think Batum is a great example of someone who didn't try and still got paid

[bondom34]

Yeah I don't think you can prove someone didn't try.

I think it's a different thing that Simmons not trying doesn't really change much in terms of his leverage to me. Like, if Morey won't trade him until offers reach a certain level, him playing poorly doesn't help that and I'm not sure Morey's the guy who's going to cave there.

I think the only change that would happen is in that situation they'd start having to pay Simmons to not play because he is willing to report, vs right now they don't

Possibly, but then I keep feeling like what does that help Simmons personally? I just don't know I see Morey caving any sooner, and its a hit to his pride.

[Texas Chuck]

Everyone creating their own story here(won't use the N-word). Right now my version is simply to take everyone at what their actions are saying (again Occam's Razor is my jam). Simmons doesn't plan on reporting or playing for the Sixers again. And Morey doesn't plan on taking a terrible offer just because a certain percentage of NBA twitter/RealGM posters thinks he has no other alternative.

Now this next part is pure 100% speculation on my part with no sourcing, but I think we will see a team come in shortly with a real offer and this gets resolved with a trade. But if my speculation is wrong, I fully expect this saga to drag out indefinitely with neither side budging and Simmons not playing.

[K_chile22]

Yeah I don't think you can prove someone didn't try.

I think it's a different thing that Simmons not trying doesn't really change much in terms of his leverage to me. Like, if Morey won't trade him until offers reach a certain level, him playing poorly doesn't help that and I'm not sure Morey's the guy who's going to cave there.

I think the only change that would happen is in that situation they'd start having to pay Simmons to not play because he is willing to report, vs right now they don't

Possibly, but then I keep feeling like what does that help Simmons personally? I just don't know I see Morey caving any sooner, and its a hit to his pride.

I'm sure ownership would rather get it done quicker if they were paying him to stay home along with their big tax bill lol

[K_chile22]

Thinking about it more, it would probably benefit him to show up and not try, it would for sure get him more money. He certainly won't though because I don't think he wants to face philly fans

[bondom34]

I think the only change that would happen is in that situation they'd start having to pay Simmons to not play because he is willing to report, vs right now they don't

Possibly, but then I keep feeling like what does that help Simmons personally? I just don't know I see Morey caving any sooner, and its a hit to his pride.

I'm sure ownership would rather get it done quicker if they were paying him to stay home along with their big tax bill lol

IDK, I'm sure they'd rather it but I'd also think they'd rather have a better team.

I tend to lean more toward Chuck, thinking some team starts slow/panics. Either that or this is a longer term waiting game. Said it a few times but we're in peak preseason right now when every team thinks it's a contender.