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longfellow44 wrote:How little money do they have to take back to not end up hard capped? This is only like 14 million going to the warriors.
SkyHook wrote:babyjax13 wrote:Worth noting that the Nets waiving Johnson means that they can take back two players before they have to get down to the regular season roster limit. Just another spin on the broad Kings - Warriors - Nets framework:
Kings trade: Monk, Saric, Carter, 2026 SAC 1st (1-8 protected, unprotected), 2027 SAS 1st (if 1-16)
in: Kuminga
Kings get their guy. Not sure he should be their guy, but they get him.
Warriors trade: Kuminga
in: 2026 SAC 1st (1-8 protected, unprotected), Terance Mann
Warriors get a pick and a rotation player for a guy that has not been a fit.
Nets trade: Terance Mann
in: Monk, Saric, Carter, 2027 SAS 1st (if 1-16)
Monk is probably easier to move than Mann and the Nets get a shot on a recent lottery pick and a possible first round pick.
Last year's FRP + a lightly protected FRP next year + a little better than lottery protected FRP the following year for Kuminga?!? That would be a horrendous move for the Kings and my opinion of Vivek & co is already low enough.
JazzMatt13 wrote:just because I think aliens probably have to do with JFK, doesn't mean my theory that Jazz will never get Wiggins, isn't true.
xdrta+ wrote:longfellow44 wrote:How little money do they have to take back to not end up hard capped? This is only like 14 million going to the warriors.
This has GS taking back $14,961,992. So, unless the Kings want to pay him $30M the first year, the Warriors need to send out more salary.
SkyHook wrote:xdrta+ wrote:longfellow44 wrote:How little money do they have to take back to not end up hard capped? This is only like 14 million going to the warriors.
This has GS taking back $14,961,992. So, unless the Kings want to pay him $30M the first year, the Warriors need to send out more salary.
With GSW taking back only that, Kuminga's contract can start as low as $14.712MM by my rough math. (50% of that amount for BYC is $7.356MM, then matching rules of 200% at that level, plus $250K.) There are likely other considerations as to why they wouldn't do that, but the matching part is straightforward. Maybe I'm wrong.
theBigLip wrote:Starting to run out of time. Someone is going to blink soon.
theBigLip wrote:Starting to run out of time. Someone is going to blink soon.
Edrees wrote:JRoy wrote:Monta Ellis have it all
I was hoping and expecting this to be one of the first replies. You did not disappoint. Jroy have it all.
JRoy wrote:It’s a lot of ink on a mediocre player.
longfellow44 wrote:As a kings fan I'm invested; but, in general this has been the most interesting story of the off season. I think it is interesting because both sides have a fair reason for handling things the way they are.
Kuminga is being treated as a valuable trade piece while also being treated like he isn't a valuable player to the warriors, that makes his motivation of wanting career control compelling. Kuminga hasn't shown enough talent for the warriors to really buy in and Steve kerr doesn't like his game, so the end result of what their team ends up looking like is super compelling.
The team or kuminga can easily be considered the villain in the situation simply based on a person's perspective, which is super interesting.
Regardless of whether the kings get kuminga or not this has been interesting to follow all off season.
LightTheBeam wrote:Warriors played hard ball. It was so obvious to me that when they had the Saric/Carter/1st offer they should have snap accepted it. GS fans thought Kuminga would blink.
Now it seems like 2+1 player option at 25 per, or QO. Neither is a good scenario for GS.
DonaldSanders wrote:longfellow44 wrote:As a kings fan I'm invested; but, in general this has been the most interesting story of the off season. I think it is interesting because both sides have a fair reason for handling things the way they are.
Kuminga is being treated as a valuable trade piece while also being treated like he isn't a valuable player to the warriors, that makes his motivation of wanting career control compelling. Kuminga hasn't shown enough talent for the warriors to really buy in and Steve kerr doesn't like his game, so the end result of what their team ends up looking like is super compelling.
The team or kuminga can easily be considered the villain in the situation simply based on a person's perspective, which is super interesting.
Regardless of whether the kings get kuminga or not this has been interesting to follow all off season.
I generally agree with what you're saying, and I appreciate how balanced of a response you have here as a Kings fan. Not many people can stay unbiased about their team.
Just gonna point out that it is not that Steve doesn't like his game, it's that:
A) Kuminga wants to be an iso scorer, and that isn't part of Steve's system (unless you are a KD level scorer). Kuminga hasn't shown a lot of interest in gelling with the Warrior system -- at times he'll try, then other days you'll see him slow back to the basket iso. His agent even posted a clip of him traveling while practicing one today. This is where Kuminga thinks he will flourish, doing classic MJ/Kobe moves. I think most people think that style is mostly done unless you're a god tier scorer, which Kuminga has not shown. He also has very inconsistent effort on defense, and shows no interest in rebounding.
B) Positionally he's never been a good fit with Draymond on the court, and Butler just exacerbates that. Kuminga needs to be on a team surrounded by shooters so the lane is clear for him. It's interesting that Sac is interested in JK with Demar on the team, they really could never share the court together, I guess Demar would be going out at some point.
Anyway I think the "Steve doesn't like JK" stuff gets really overhyped when it's really that JK is an odd positional fit with GS and doesn't want to do what has been asked of him in the Warrior system. In today's NBA if you want to develop as some ISO god you're going to need to play defense consistently and rebound if you want teams to invest time in your iso game (and JK's TS declined to 53.5% last year). It's been all the little things he needs to do that he doesn't seem interested in.LightTheBeam wrote:Warriors played hard ball. It was so obvious to me that when they had the Saric/Carter/1st offer they should have snap accepted it. GS fans thought Kuminga would blink.
Now it seems like 2+1 player option at 25 per, or QO. Neither is a good scenario for GS.
None of those Kings offers were good for the Warriors, still aren't now.
DonaldSanders wrote:longfellow44 wrote:As a kings fan I'm invested; but, in general this has been the most interesting story of the off season. I think it is interesting because both sides have a fair reason for handling things the way they are.
Kuminga is being treated as a valuable trade piece while also being treated like he isn't a valuable player to the warriors, that makes his motivation of wanting career control compelling. Kuminga hasn't shown enough talent for the warriors to really buy in and Steve kerr doesn't like his game, so the end result of what their team ends up looking like is super compelling.
The team or kuminga can easily be considered the villain in the situation simply based on a person's perspective, which is super interesting.
Regardless of whether the kings get kuminga or not this has been interesting to follow all off season.
I generally agree with what you're saying, and I appreciate how balanced of a response you have here as a Kings fan. Not many people can stay unbiased about their team.
Just gonna point out that it is not that Steve doesn't like his game, it's that:
A) Kuminga wants to be an iso scorer, and that isn't part of Steve's system (unless you are a KD level scorer). Kuminga hasn't shown a lot of interest in gelling with the Warrior system -- at times he'll try, then other days you'll see him slow back to the basket iso. His agent even posted a clip of him traveling while practicing one today. This is where Kuminga thinks he will flourish, doing classic MJ/Kobe moves. I think most people think that style is mostly done unless you're a god tier scorer, which Kuminga has not shown. He also has very inconsistent effort on defense, and shows no interest in rebounding.
B) Positionally he's never been a good fit with Draymond on the court, and Butler just exacerbates that. Kuminga needs to be on a team surrounded by shooters so the lane is clear for him. It's interesting that Sac is interested in JK with Demar on the team, they really could never share the court together, I guess Demar would be going out at some point.
Anyway I think the "Steve doesn't like JK" stuff gets really overhyped when it's really that JK is an odd positional fit with GS and doesn't want to do what has been asked of him in the Warrior system. In today's NBA if you want to develop as some ISO god you're going to need to play defense consistently and rebound if you want teams to invest time in your iso game (and JK's TS declined to 53.5% last year). It's been all the little things he needs to do that he doesn't seem interested in.LightTheBeam wrote:Warriors played hard ball. It was so obvious to me that when they had the Saric/Carter/1st offer they should have snap accepted it. GS fans thought Kuminga would blink.
Now it seems like 2+1 player option at 25 per, or QO. Neither is a good scenario for GS.
None of those Kings offers were good for the Warriors, still aren't now.
LightTheBeam wrote:DonaldSanders wrote:longfellow44 wrote:As a kings fan I'm invested; but, in general this has been the most interesting story of the off season. I think it is interesting because both sides have a fair reason for handling things the way they are.
Kuminga is being treated as a valuable trade piece while also being treated like he isn't a valuable player to the warriors, that makes his motivation of wanting career control compelling. Kuminga hasn't shown enough talent for the warriors to really buy in and Steve kerr doesn't like his game, so the end result of what their team ends up looking like is super compelling.
The team or kuminga can easily be considered the villain in the situation simply based on a person's perspective, which is super interesting.
Regardless of whether the kings get kuminga or not this has been interesting to follow all off season.
I generally agree with what you're saying, and I appreciate how balanced of a response you have here as a Kings fan. Not many people can stay unbiased about their team.
Just gonna point out that it is not that Steve doesn't like his game, it's that:
A) Kuminga wants to be an iso scorer, and that isn't part of Steve's system (unless you are a KD level scorer). Kuminga hasn't shown a lot of interest in gelling with the Warrior system -- at times he'll try, then other days you'll see him slow back to the basket iso. His agent even posted a clip of him traveling while practicing one today. This is where Kuminga thinks he will flourish, doing classic MJ/Kobe moves. I think most people think that style is mostly done unless you're a god tier scorer, which Kuminga has not shown. He also has very inconsistent effort on defense, and shows no interest in rebounding.
B) Positionally he's never been a good fit with Draymond on the court, and Butler just exacerbates that. Kuminga needs to be on a team surrounded by shooters so the lane is clear for him. It's interesting that Sac is interested in JK with Demar on the team, they really could never share the court together, I guess Demar would be going out at some point.
Anyway I think the "Steve doesn't like JK" stuff gets really overhyped when it's really that JK is an odd positional fit with GS and doesn't want to do what has been asked of him in the Warrior system. In today's NBA if you want to develop as some ISO god you're going to need to play defense consistently and rebound if you want teams to invest time in your iso game (and JK's TS declined to 53.5% last year). It's been all the little things he needs to do that he doesn't seem interested in.LightTheBeam wrote:Warriors played hard ball. It was so obvious to me that when they had the Saric/Carter/1st offer they should have snap accepted it. GS fans thought Kuminga would blink.
Now it seems like 2+1 player option at 25 per, or QO. Neither is a good scenario for GS.
None of those Kings offers were good for the Warriors, still aren't now.
You maybe missing my point. None of the scenarios were amazing for the Warriors. But we have 3 scenarios-
1. JK plays on the QO, leaves next year, has a NTC.
2. JK signs for 3 years with a player option at 25 million a year.
3. Get Carter/Saric/1st
The Warriors have had 4 years to develop him. They haven't been interested in featuring him as a significant part of the rotation. Signing a guy who may get DNP in the post-season to a 25 million a year contract cannot be looked at as a positive. At that salary, with a player option, its very likely he won't have value, and may even be looked at as a negative contract day 1.
Taking a flyer on Carter, saving 15 million a year, getting a tradable expiring contract, and adding a 1st is significantly better now and in the future for the Warriors outlook. I don't really see an argument that option 1/2 listed above are better.
NW wrote:LightTheBeam wrote:DonaldSanders wrote:
I generally agree with what you're saying, and I appreciate how balanced of a response you have here as a Kings fan. Not many people can stay unbiased about their team.
Just gonna point out that it is not that Steve doesn't like his game, it's that:
A) Kuminga wants to be an iso scorer, and that isn't part of Steve's system (unless you are a KD level scorer). Kuminga hasn't shown a lot of interest in gelling with the Warrior system -- at times he'll try, then other days you'll see him slow back to the basket iso. His agent even posted a clip of him traveling while practicing one today. This is where Kuminga thinks he will flourish, doing classic MJ/Kobe moves. I think most people think that style is mostly done unless you're a god tier scorer, which Kuminga has not shown. He also has very inconsistent effort on defense, and shows no interest in rebounding.
B) Positionally he's never been a good fit with Draymond on the court, and Butler just exacerbates that. Kuminga needs to be on a team surrounded by shooters so the lane is clear for him. It's interesting that Sac is interested in JK with Demar on the team, they really could never share the court together, I guess Demar would be going out at some point.
Anyway I think the "Steve doesn't like JK" stuff gets really overhyped when it's really that JK is an odd positional fit with GS and doesn't want to do what has been asked of him in the Warrior system. In today's NBA if you want to develop as some ISO god you're going to need to play defense consistently and rebound if you want teams to invest time in your iso game (and JK's TS declined to 53.5% last year). It's been all the little things he needs to do that he doesn't seem interested in.
None of those Kings offers were good for the Warriors, still aren't now.
You maybe missing my point. None of the scenarios were amazing for the Warriors. But we have 3 scenarios-
1. JK plays on the QO, leaves next year, has a NTC.
2. JK signs for 3 years with a player option at 25 million a year.
3. Get Carter/Saric/1st
The Warriors have had 4 years to develop him. They haven't been interested in featuring him as a significant part of the rotation. Signing a guy who may get DNP in the post-season to a 25 million a year contract cannot be looked at as a positive. At that salary, with a player option, its very likely he won't have value, and may even be looked at as a negative contract day 1.
Taking a flyer on Carter, saving 15 million a year, getting a tradable expiring contract, and adding a 1st is significantly better now and in the future for the Warriors outlook. I don't really see an argument that option 1/2 listed above are better.
Option 1 saves more money by being under the tax than $15 mil, as the kids say, we got Devin Carter, 6’2 guard who can’t shoot or run point, at home in GP2 who Kerr and Steph like. Saric’s $5 year expiring is Jack. They can sign some one year vet mins for that salary filler and a lotto protected first from a team that’s been out the lotto but once in two decades? Or maybe it becomes a Spurs pick when they’re likely championship level.
Pass.
JK on the QO just on the $ savings and keeping his Bird rights for a S&T next summer beats that Sac offer.
Having Kuminga on that 2+1 is better. He’s not worth much on his own, but he never was imo. But that short deal plus a post Steph first can get value back.
Hell, the Suns offer was better than the Carter one. Oneale and Richards are journeymen, but at least shown they can play in the league. Carter hasn’t done that yet and Saric has shown he no longer can. Since the Kings first was likely only conveying if they made the playoffs, the Suns seconds might be better too.
So yeah, there’s an argument
NW wrote:LightTheBeam wrote:DonaldSanders wrote:
I generally agree with what you're saying, and I appreciate how balanced of a response you have here as a Kings fan. Not many people can stay unbiased about their team.
Just gonna point out that it is not that Steve doesn't like his game, it's that:
A) Kuminga wants to be an iso scorer, and that isn't part of Steve's system (unless you are a KD level scorer). Kuminga hasn't shown a lot of interest in gelling with the Warrior system -- at times he'll try, then other days you'll see him slow back to the basket iso. His agent even posted a clip of him traveling while practicing one today. This is where Kuminga thinks he will flourish, doing classic MJ/Kobe moves. I think most people think that style is mostly done unless you're a god tier scorer, which Kuminga has not shown. He also has very inconsistent effort on defense, and shows no interest in rebounding.
B) Positionally he's never been a good fit with Draymond on the court, and Butler just exacerbates that. Kuminga needs to be on a team surrounded by shooters so the lane is clear for him. It's interesting that Sac is interested in JK with Demar on the team, they really could never share the court together, I guess Demar would be going out at some point.
Anyway I think the "Steve doesn't like JK" stuff gets really overhyped when it's really that JK is an odd positional fit with GS and doesn't want to do what has been asked of him in the Warrior system. In today's NBA if you want to develop as some ISO god you're going to need to play defense consistently and rebound if you want teams to invest time in your iso game (and JK's TS declined to 53.5% last year). It's been all the little things he needs to do that he doesn't seem interested in.
None of those Kings offers were good for the Warriors, still aren't now.
You maybe missing my point. None of the scenarios were amazing for the Warriors. But we have 3 scenarios-
1. JK plays on the QO, leaves next year, has a NTC.
2. JK signs for 3 years with a player option at 25 million a year.
3. Get Carter/Saric/1st
The Warriors have had 4 years to develop him. They haven't been interested in featuring him as a significant part of the rotation. Signing a guy who may get DNP in the post-season to a 25 million a year contract cannot be looked at as a positive. At that salary, with a player option, its very likely he won't have value, and may even be looked at as a negative contract day 1.
Taking a flyer on Carter, saving 15 million a year, getting a tradable expiring contract, and adding a 1st is significantly better now and in the future for the Warriors outlook. I don't really see an argument that option 1/2 listed above are better.
Option 1 saves more money by being under the tax than $15 mil, as the kids say, we got Devin Carter, 6’2 guard who can’t shoot or run point, at home in GP2 who Kerr and Steph like. Saric’s $5 year expiring is Jack. They can sign some one year vet mins for that salary filler and a lotto protected first from a team that’s been out the lotto but once in two decades? Or maybe it becomes a Spurs pick when they’re likely championship level.
Pass.
JK on the QO just on the $ savings and keeping his Bird rights for a S&T next summer beats that Sac offer.
Having Kuminga on that 2+1 is better. He’s not worth much on his own, but he never was imo. But that short deal plus a post Steph first can get value back.
Hell, the Suns offer was better than the Carter one. Oneale and Richards are journeymen, but at least shown they can play in the league. Carter hasn’t done that yet and Saric has shown he no longer can. Since the Kings first was likely only conveying if they made the playoffs, the Suns seconds might be better too.
So yeah, there’s an argument
Sactowndog wrote:NW wrote:LightTheBeam wrote:
You maybe missing my point. None of the scenarios were amazing for the Warriors. But we have 3 scenarios-
1. JK plays on the QO, leaves next year, has a NTC.
2. JK signs for 3 years with a player option at 25 million a year.
3. Get Carter/Saric/1st
The Warriors have had 4 years to develop him. They haven't been interested in featuring him as a significant part of the rotation. Signing a guy who may get DNP in the post-season to a 25 million a year contract cannot be looked at as a positive. At that salary, with a player option, its very likely he won't have value, and may even be looked at as a negative contract day 1.
Taking a flyer on Carter, saving 15 million a year, getting a tradable expiring contract, and adding a 1st is significantly better now and in the future for the Warriors outlook. I don't really see an argument that option 1/2 listed above are better.
Option 1 saves more money by being under the tax than $15 mil, as the kids say, we got Devin Carter, 6’2 guard who can’t shoot or run point, at home in GP2 who Kerr and Steph like. Saric’s $5 year expiring is Jack. They can sign some one year vet mins for that salary filler and a lotto protected first from a team that’s been out the lotto but once in two decades? Or maybe it becomes a Spurs pick when they’re likely championship level.
Pass.
JK on the QO just on the $ savings and keeping his Bird rights for a S&T next summer beats that Sac offer.
Having Kuminga on that 2+1 is better. He’s not worth much on his own, but he never was imo. But that short deal plus a post Steph first can get value back.
Hell, the Suns offer was better than the Carter one. Oneale and Richards are journeymen, but at least shown they can play in the league. Carter hasn’t done that yet and Saric has shown he no longer can. Since the Kings first was likely only conveying if they made the playoffs, the Suns seconds might be better too.
So yeah, there’s an argument
I think if JK takes the QO you have very little chance of a S&T next year.
Golabki wrote:NW wrote:LightTheBeam wrote:
You maybe missing my point. None of the scenarios were amazing for the Warriors. But we have 3 scenarios-
1. JK plays on the QO, leaves next year, has a NTC.
2. JK signs for 3 years with a player option at 25 million a year.
3. Get Carter/Saric/1st
The Warriors have had 4 years to develop him. They haven't been interested in featuring him as a significant part of the rotation. Signing a guy who may get DNP in the post-season to a 25 million a year contract cannot be looked at as a positive. At that salary, with a player option, its very likely he won't have value, and may even be looked at as a negative contract day 1.
Taking a flyer on Carter, saving 15 million a year, getting a tradable expiring contract, and adding a 1st is significantly better now and in the future for the Warriors outlook. I don't really see an argument that option 1/2 listed above are better.
Option 1 saves more money by being under the tax than $15 mil, as the kids say, we got Devin Carter, 6’2 guard who can’t shoot or run point, at home in GP2 who Kerr and Steph like. Saric’s $5 year expiring is Jack. They can sign some one year vet mins for that salary filler and a lotto protected first from a team that’s been out the lotto but once in two decades? Or maybe it becomes a Spurs pick when they’re likely championship level.
Pass.
JK on the QO just on the $ savings and keeping his Bird rights for a S&T next summer beats that Sac offer.
Having Kuminga on that 2+1 is better. He’s not worth much on his own, but he never was imo. But that short deal plus a post Steph first can get value back.
Hell, the Suns offer was better than the Carter one. Oneale and Richards are journeymen, but at least shown they can play in the league. Carter hasn’t done that yet and Saric has shown he no longer can. Since the Kings first was likely only conveying if they made the playoffs, the Suns seconds might be better too.
So yeah, there’s an argument
Kuminga taking the QO is terrible for GSW... and also still better than a lot of the options getting listed.
2+1 at $25M is obviously as bad contract and GSW won't do that. It's worse than nothing. The fundamental problem is that there's not S&T market because almost no one wants him that 25.
The problem with Sac's offers has always been that they aren't really better than just keep Kuminga on the QO. Would you rather have and extra combo F on a below market deal for one year, or a bad contract and a protected first?
LightTheBeam wrote:Golabki wrote:NW wrote:
Option 1 saves more money by being under the tax than $15 mil, as the kids say, we got Devin Carter, 6’2 guard who can’t shoot or run point, at home in GP2 who Kerr and Steph like. Saric’s $5 year expiring is Jack. They can sign some one year vet mins for that salary filler and a lotto protected first from a team that’s been out the lotto but once in two decades? Or maybe it becomes a Spurs pick when they’re likely championship level.
Pass.
JK on the QO just on the $ savings and keeping his Bird rights for a S&T next summer beats that Sac offer.
Having Kuminga on that 2+1 is better. He’s not worth much on his own, but he never was imo. But that short deal plus a post Steph first can get value back.
Hell, the Suns offer was better than the Carter one. Oneale and Richards are journeymen, but at least shown they can play in the league. Carter hasn’t done that yet and Saric has shown he no longer can. Since the Kings first was likely only conveying if they made the playoffs, the Suns seconds might be better too.
So yeah, there’s an argument
Kuminga taking the QO is terrible for GSW... and also still better than a lot of the options getting listed.
2+1 at $25M is obviously as bad contract and GSW won't do that. It's worse than nothing. The fundamental problem is that there's not S&T market because almost no one wants him that 25.
The problem with Sac's offers has always been that they aren't really better than just keep Kuminga on the QO. Would you rather have and extra combo F on a below market deal for one year, or a bad contract and a protected first?
The 2nd option. And I've argued from day 1 the Kings should not offer any 1st in any Kuminga deal. He hasnt proven to be worth it whatsoever.
And the protected 1st was always going to deliver a 1st, if not in 2030, then becomes to 2031 minnesota/kings. So it was always going to deliver a 1st no matter what. Not that i'd argue GS should keep the pick, I just think its by far and away the most value chip in this deal.
As for the Kings, which last spoke with the Warriors earlier this week, team sources say they’ve offered a three-year, $63 million deal for Kuminga in a proposal that would send veteran guard Malik Monk and their 2030 first-round pick (lottery protected) to the Warriors," Amick wrote.
"If that pick didn’t convey, then the Warriors would get the least favorable of the Kings or San Antonio’s first-round pick in 2031. Those protections have been the primary sticking point, team sources said, as the Warriors have insisted that the first-rounder be unprotected."
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