Can somebody please explain why Nikola Vucevic trade value is so low?

[Slava]

Teams have won championships with guys like Erick Dampier, Joel Anthony, Kendrick Perkins as their "rim protector." I think it isn't in the realm of absurdity to say that a complimentary piece to Vucevic has the potential to work, and that it doesn't need to be the other way around the way the Thunder have tried (and failed) with Kanter.

Eric Dampier has never won a championship, Perkins played alongside KG and Joel Anthony played alongside one of the best perimeter defensive teams and he barely racked up rotation minutes before Miami went small.

I actually like Vucevic and he could improve his value if he gets to play on a team where the guards can make an occasional jumper or two to give him more spacing. No big man would look good playing alongside Payton and Oladipo.

[OrlandoNed]

Teams have won championships with guys like Erick Dampier, Joel Anthony, Kendrick Perkins as their "rim protector." I think it isn't in the realm of absurdity to say that a complimentary piece to Vucevic has the potential to work, and that it doesn't need to be the other way around the way the Thunder have tried (and failed) with Kanter.

Joel Anthony had nothing to do with Miami winning titles. He played 17 total minutes in 12 total finals games over 2 seasons

Perkins was a much better defender than Vucevic when Boston won the title back when.

The Thunder didn't start Kanter, they started Adams because he is a better defender, but that's not the reason the Thunder just got knocked out by the Warriors.

[Texas Chuck]

Eric Dampier has never won a championship, P

yeah he managed to get himself on the wrong end of both Miami/Dallas Finals matchups. And agree those other guys aren't great examples. At least Perkins played a real role. Anthony was never a major player on a Heat champion.

[Wade]

Teams have won championships with guys like Erick Dampier, Joel Anthony, Kendrick Perkins as their "rim protector." I think it isn't in the realm of absurdity to say that a complimentary piece to Vucevic has the potential to work, and that it doesn't need to be the other way around the way the Thunder have tried (and failed) with Kanter.

Eric Dampier has never won a championship, Perkins played alongside KG and Joel Anthony played alongside one of the best perimeter defensive teams and he barely racked up rotation minutes before Miami went small.

I actually like Vucevic and he could improve his value if he gets to play on a team where the guards can make an occasional jumper or two to give him more spacing. No big man would look good playing alongside Payton and Oladipo.

You're right, he made it twice, lost both.

Anthony played 20+ a game. I'd call that a solid role.

The point being, there is no "one" way to build a champion. It's been done several different ways, and there's no reason to dismiss the idea that Vucevic could start for a champion. Before last season, it was a popular sentiment around the leauge that you "didn't live or die by the three, you just die by it." And now Golden State exists. Examine Vucevic as the player that he is, not in the context of some blueprint for a title that doesn't exist.

[RollingWave]

Teams have won championships with guys like Erick Dampier, Joel Anthony, Kendrick Perkins as their "rim protector." I think it isn't in the realm of absurdity to say that a complimentary piece to Vucevic has the potential to work, and that it doesn't need to be the other way around the way the Thunder have tried (and failed) with Kanter.

Eric Dampier has never won a championship, Perkins played alongside KG and Joel Anthony played alongside one of the best perimeter defensive teams and he barely racked up rotation minutes before Miami went small.

I actually like Vucevic and he could improve his value if he gets to play on a team where the guards can make an occasional jumper or two to give him more spacing. No big man would look good playing alongside Payton and Oladipo.

You're right, he made it twice, lost both.

Anthony played 20+ a game. I'd call that a solid role.

The point being, there is no "one" way to build a champion. It's been done several different ways, and there's no reason to dismiss the idea that Vucevic could start for a champion. Before last season, it was a popular sentiment around the leauge that you "didn't live or die by the three, you just die by it." And now Golden State exists. Examine Vucevic as the player that he is, not in the context of some blueprint for a title that doesn't exist.

There's no *1* way, but some paths are obviously easier than others.

To build a championship, let us just note that the one thing you absolutely need first is a top 5 player (or at least a potentially top 5 player.), no If / but /maybes, the rest just doesn't matter at all in regards to winning a chip if that part isn't there, you can have 5 top 30 players and if none of them are top 5 you'll still not come close to winning a chip ( exhibit A. last year's Hawks.)

Now, IF you have that top 5 player, than you can start worrying about building around that guy, and fitting the specifics .

Let's assume that top 5 player isn't a center. what do you need more at center? a guy that can defend or a guy that score? you'd basically just need 1 or 2 other guys that can score to some degree from any position, and it's obviously easier to find them in guards and wings. but if this big is bad defensively, you pretty much need 4 other really good defenders (including the star himself must be a good defender) to have a chance at all when going up against other teams with similar level players.

What is easier? finding another guard who can reasonably score or finding 4 guard /wings who are all good to great defenders?

Vuc's game is pretty fun offensively, but is he a potential top 5 player? obviously not, so you must look at him in terms of is he a easy piece to fit around a star? or is his flaw not worth the trouble of finding other pieces to cover up? at least right now most people leans towards the later answer. He's still be fine as a back up big obviously just off talent alone, but as a rotation guy your going to war with potentially playing 40 mins in a playoffs? it's why Steven Adams play 40 minutes and the obviously more offensively skilled Enes Kanter played like 8.

[OrlandoNed]

Teams have won championships with guys like Erick Dampier, Joel Anthony, Kendrick Perkins as their "rim protector." I think it isn't in the realm of absurdity to say that a complimentary piece to Vucevic has the potential to work, and that it doesn't need to be the other way around the way the Thunder have tried (and failed) with Kanter.

Eric Dampier has never won a championship, Perkins played alongside KG and Joel Anthony played alongside one of the best perimeter defensive teams and he barely racked up rotation minutes before Miami went small.

I actually like Vucevic and he could improve his value if he gets to play on a team where the guards can make an occasional jumper or two to give him more spacing. No big man would look good playing alongside Payton and Oladipo.

You're right, he made it twice, lost both.

Anthony played 20+ a game. I'd call that a solid role.

The point being, there is no "one" way to build a champion. It's been done several different ways, and there's no reason to dismiss the idea that Vucevic could start for a champion. Before last season, it was a popular sentiment around the leauge that you "didn't live or die by the three, you just die by it." And now Golden State exists. Examine Vucevic as the player that he is, not in the context of some blueprint for a title that doesn't exist.

Name a NBA champ who had a poor defensive starting center. Face it. Contenders don't have turnstiles starting at center.

I know what Vucevic is: all offense, no defense.

[Slava]

Eric Dampier has never won a championship, Perkins played alongside KG and Joel Anthony played alongside one of the best perimeter defensive teams and he barely racked up rotation minutes before Miami went small.

I actually like Vucevic and he could improve his value if he gets to play on a team where the guards can make an occasional jumper or two to give him more spacing. No big man would look good playing alongside Payton and Oladipo.

You're right, he made it twice, lost both.

Anthony played 20+ a game. I'd call that a solid role.

The point being, there is no "one" way to build a champion. It's been done several different ways, and there's no reason to dismiss the idea that Vucevic could start for a champion. Before last season, it was a popular sentiment around the leauge that you "didn't live or die by the three, you just die by it." And now Golden State exists. Examine Vucevic as the player that he is, not in the context of some blueprint for a title that doesn't exist.

Name a NBA champ who had a poor defensive starting center. Face it. Contenders don't have turnstiles starting at center.

I know what Vucevic is: all offense, no defense.

Not to sound rude but Orlando should think of consistently making the playoffs first before thinking of contention. Right now Vucevic is not your biggest issue and he's actually your most consistent scorer unless someone like Hezonja makes the step up. So trading him for a defensive big might put you in a situation where you chop off your nose to spite your face.

If you play Aaron Gordon alongside him, you can mask a lot of help defense issues or even just go small majority of the time with Gordon at center.

[jbk1234]

For the same reason he's the centerpiece in every trade offered by Magic fans. When you're constantly saying - hey I'm willing to part with this guy, there's usually a reason for it.

[Wade]

Eric Dampier has never won a championship, Perkins played alongside KG and Joel Anthony played alongside one of the best perimeter defensive teams and he barely racked up rotation minutes before Miami went small.

I actually like Vucevic and he could improve his value if he gets to play on a team where the guards can make an occasional jumper or two to give him more spacing. No big man would look good playing alongside Payton and Oladipo.

You're right, he made it twice, lost both.

Anthony played 20+ a game. I'd call that a solid role.

The point being, there is no "one" way to build a champion. It's been done several different ways, and there's no reason to dismiss the idea that Vucevic could start for a champion. Before last season, it was a popular sentiment around the leauge that you "didn't live or die by the three, you just die by it." And now Golden State exists. Examine Vucevic as the player that he is, not in the context of some blueprint for a title that doesn't exist.

Name a NBA champ who had a poor defensive starting center. Face it. Contenders don't have turnstiles starting at center.

I know what Vucevic is: all offense, no defense.

The only teams that won it the last decade featured LeBron, Duncan, Kobe, or Steph -- outside that Celtics in 08. If you wanna call Kendrick Perkins' 25 MPG a starter, so be it. Or, if you wanna call Chris Bosh a good defensive C, so be it.

One of this sport's best dynasties started Luc Longley at center. I think what we're seeing is people a little too caught up in the latest trends.

[OrlandoNed]

You're right, he made it twice, lost both.

Anthony played 20+ a game. I'd call that a solid role.

The point being, there is no "one" way to build a champion. It's been done several different ways, and there's no reason to dismiss the idea that Vucevic could start for a champion. Before last season, it was a popular sentiment around the leauge that you "didn't live or die by the three, you just die by it." And now Golden State exists. Examine Vucevic as the player that he is, not in the context of some blueprint for a title that doesn't exist.

Name a NBA champ who had a poor defensive starting center. Face it. Contenders don't have turnstiles starting at center.

I know what Vucevic is: all offense, no defense.

Not to sound rude but Orlando should think of consistently making the playoffs first before thinking of contention. Right now Vucevic is not your biggest issue and he's actually your most consistent scorer unless someone like Hezonja makes the step up. So trading him for a defensive big might put you in a situation where you chop off your nose to spite your face.

If you play Aaron Gordon alongside him, you can mask a lot of help defense issues or even just go small majority of the time with Gordon at center.

Well obviously Orlando has a few more steps to go to get to title contention, but leaning on Vucevic like a crutch for too long is not good for the team. He's our best player currently, but others need to step up and develop into the type of players that are needed to go deep into the playoffs.

Either way, trading him for a replacement will not be as effective as changing his role and adding a defensive center via free agency. Vucevic as a 6th man would be great for Orlando as a offensive focal point in the second unit and would abuse the opposing bench's frontcourt.

[OrlandoNed]

You're right, he made it twice, lost both.

Anthony played 20+ a game. I'd call that a solid role.

The point being, there is no "one" way to build a champion. It's been done several different ways, and there's no reason to dismiss the idea that Vucevic could start for a champion. Before last season, it was a popular sentiment around the leauge that you "didn't live or die by the three, you just die by it." And now Golden State exists. Examine Vucevic as the player that he is, not in the context of some blueprint for a title that doesn't exist.

Name a NBA champ who had a poor defensive starting center. Face it. Contenders don't have turnstiles starting at center.

I know what Vucevic is: all offense, no defense.

The only teams that won it the last decade featured LeBron, Duncan, Kobe, or Steph -- outside that Celtics in 08. If you wanna call Kendrick Perkins' 25 MPG a starter, so be it. Or, if you wanna call Chris Bosh a good defensive C, so be it.

One of this sport's best dynasties started Luc Longley at center. I think what we're seeing is people a little too caught up in the latest trends.

Latest trends? You had to back 18 years to find the last champ without an above average defensive starting center! Now i've heard it all, defensive centers starting for champs are a new trend. Holocaust deniers think you are crazy.

[Wade]

Name a NBA champ who had a poor defensive starting center. Face it. Contenders don't have turnstiles starting at center.

I know what Vucevic is: all offense, no defense.

The only teams that won it the last decade featured LeBron, Duncan, Kobe, or Steph -- outside that Celtics in 08. If you wanna call Kendrick Perkins' 25 MPG a starter, so be it. Or, if you wanna call Chris Bosh a good defensive C, so be it.

One of this sport's best dynasties started Luc Longley at center. I think what we're seeing is people a little too caught up in the latest trends.

Latest trends? You had to back 18 years to find the last champ without an above average defensive starting center! Now i've heard it all, defensive centers starting for champs are a new trend. Holocaust deniers think you are crazy.

So, you are accepting Kendrick Perkins at 25 MPG as a starter? And Chris Bosh as a good defensive center? You can throw the crazy word at me all you want, I'll just be over here LOLing.

[bondom34]

The only teams that won it the last decade featured LeBron, Duncan, Kobe, or Steph -- outside that Celtics in 08. If you wanna call Kendrick Perkins' 25 MPG a starter, so be it. Or, if you wanna call Chris Bosh a good defensive C, so be it.

One of this sport's best dynasties started Luc Longley at center. I think what we're seeing is people a little too caught up in the latest trends.

Latest trends? You had to back 18 years to find the last champ without an above average defensive starting center! Now i've heard it all, defensive centers starting for champs are a new trend. Holocaust deniers think you are crazy.

So, you are accepting Kendrick Perkins at 25 MPG as a starter? And Chris Bosh as a good defensive center? You can throw the crazy word at me all you want, I'll just be over here LOLing.

I'd look at the teams who are consistently contending in recent years and ask who has a below average defender starting at C.

[Wade]

Latest trends? You had to back 18 years to find the last champ without an above average defensive starting center! Now i've heard it all, defensive centers starting for champs are a new trend. Holocaust deniers think you are crazy.

So, you are accepting Kendrick Perkins at 25 MPG as a starter? And Chris Bosh as a good defensive center? You can throw the crazy word at me all you want, I'll just be over here LOLing.

I'd look at the teams who are consistently contending in recent years and ask who has a below average defender starting at C.

But you see the flaw in this line of thinking, right? Four years ago, if I asked you to look at the teams consistently contending in recent years and asked who was built around a shoot-first guard, you'd likely answer along the lines of, "There's one or two, but that style doesn't work in today's NBA."

And here we are. And it's working.

We're dudes on a message board. The idea that we have it all figured out when it comes to building a title team is way out there, and the idea that anybody doing it differently than we would is doing it wrong is even more out there.

Is Vucevic going to be the best player on a title team? I doubt it. Could he be a starter on a title team? Hell yeah he could. If we live in a world where Udonis Haslem can start on a championship team, then you aren't going to convince me that Vuc couldn't.

[bondom34]

So, you are accepting Kendrick Perkins at 25 MPG as a starter? And Chris Bosh as a good defensive center? You can throw the crazy word at me all you want, I'll just be over here LOLing.

I'd look at the teams who are consistently contending in recent years and ask who has a below average defender starting at C.

But you see the flaw in this line of thinking, right? Four years ago, if I asked you to look at the teams consistently contending in recent years and asked who was built around a shoot-first guard, you'd likely answer along the lines of, "There's one or two, but that style doesn't work in today's NBA."

And here we are. And it's working.

We're dudes on a message board. The idea that we have it all figured out when it comes to building a title team is way out there, and the idea that anybody doing it differently than we would is doing it wrong is even more out there.

Is Vucevic going to be the best player on a title team? I doubt it. Could he be a starter on a title team? Hell yeah he could. If we live in a world where Udonis Haslem can start on a championship team, then you aren't going to convince me that Vuc couldn't.

Actually 4 years ago you still had Tony Parker and Westbrook, so no. And you can go back 20 years if you'd like, the vast vast majority of contenders start a good defender at C.

Even Haslem and Perk could defend. They brought little offensively, but could defend.

[OrlandoNed]

The only teams that won it the last decade featured LeBron, Duncan, Kobe, or Steph -- outside that Celtics in 08. If you wanna call Kendrick Perkins' 25 MPG a starter, so be it. Or, if you wanna call Chris Bosh a good defensive C, so be it.

One of this sport's best dynasties started Luc Longley at center. I think what we're seeing is people a little too caught up in the latest trends.

Latest trends? You had to back 18 years to find the last champ without an above average defensive starting center! Now i've heard it all, defensive centers starting for champs are a new trend. Holocaust deniers think you are crazy.

So, you are accepting Kendrick Perkins at 25 MPG as a starter? And Chris Bosh as a good defensive center? You can throw the crazy word at me all you want, I'll just be over here LOLing.

I'm going to assume "over here" means the place where people who have no clue what they're talking about all hang out.

[Wade]

Latest trends? You had to back 18 years to find the last champ without an above average defensive starting center! Now i've heard it all, defensive centers starting for champs are a new trend. Holocaust deniers think you are crazy.

So, you are accepting Kendrick Perkins at 25 MPG as a starter? And Chris Bosh as a good defensive center? You can throw the crazy word at me all you want, I'll just be over here LOLing.

I'm going to assume "over here" means the place where people who have no clue what they're talking about all hang out.

Oh, the Internet. That place you go for discussion, only to find people like this.

Anyway. Go Magic, friend.

[Wade]

I'd look at the teams who are consistently contending in recent years and ask who has a below average defender starting at C.

But you see the flaw in this line of thinking, right? Four years ago, if I asked you to look at the teams consistently contending in recent years and asked who was built around a shoot-first guard, you'd likely answer along the lines of, "There's one or two, but that style doesn't work in today's NBA."

And here we are. And it's working.

We're dudes on a message board. The idea that we have it all figured out when it comes to building a title team is way out there, and the idea that anybody doing it differently than we would is doing it wrong is even more out there.

Is Vucevic going to be the best player on a title team? I doubt it. Could he be a starter on a title team? Hell yeah he could. If we live in a world where Udonis Haslem can start on a championship team, then you aren't going to convince me that Vuc couldn't.

Actually 4 years ago you still had Tony Parker and Westbrook, so no. And you can go back 20 years if you'd like, the vast vast majority of contenders start a good defender at C.

Even Haslem and Perk could defend. They brought little offensively, but could defend.

What you're saying now is that the Spurs and Thunder are built around Parker and Westbrook? I'd have to strongly disagree with you there my friend.

Haslem and Perk could defend, yes -- but they did it in limited roles. Why couldn't Vucevic get the 30 MPG while the Magic bring in a similar player for that limited role?

And before we go over the fact that they were "starters," starting the game and playing 25 minutes is pretty loose use of the word "starter"

[bondom34]

What you're saying now is that the Spurs and Thunder are built around Parker and Westbrook? I'd have to strongly disagree with you there my friend.

Haslem and Perk could defend, yes -- but they did it in limited roles. Why couldn't Vucevic get the 30 MPG while the Magic bring in a similar player for that limited role?

And before we go over the fact that they were "starters," starting the game and playing 25 minutes is pretty loose use of the word "starter"

No, but are the Magic built around Vuc?

Because even fewer teams are built around offense only Cs who win titles in history.

And yes, they were starters, and played the most minutes at C on those teams. Again, you can deny what's been shown in history but we're all seeing it here. You can get rim protection and interior defense from bigs. Offense is from anywhere.

And Vuc could get 30 mpg fine, but you're playing a poor defender for 30 minutes. For reference, Haslem wasn't a heavy minute player, he played backup to Bosh plenty and Bosh is a better defender than Vuc. Perk's backup was Glen Davis and he played next to a DPOY caliber big. All 4 of them are much better defenders than Vuc.

Sorry, but you don't win with that from a C.

[Wade]

What you're saying now is that the Spurs and Thunder are built around Parker and Westbrook? I'd have to strongly disagree with you there my friend.

Haslem and Perk could defend, yes -- but they did it in limited roles. Why couldn't Vucevic get the 30 MPG while the Magic bring in a similar player for that limited role?

And before we go over the fact that they were "starters," starting the game and playing 25 minutes is pretty loose use of the word "starter"

No, but are the Magic built around Vuc?

Because even fewer teams are built around offense only Cs who win titles in history.

And yes, they were starters, and played the most minutes at C on those teams. Again, you can deny what's been shown in history but we're all seeing it here. You can get rim protection and interior defense from bigs. Offense is from anywhere.

And Vuc could get 30 mpg fine, but you're playing a poor defender for 30 minutes. For reference, Haslem wasn't a heavy minute player, he played backup to Bosh plenty and Bosh is a better defender than Vuc. Perk's backup was Glen Davis and he played next to a DPOY caliber big. All 4 of them are much better defenders than Vuc.

Sorry, but you don't win with that from a C.

What you don't win without, is an elite level player. You mention history, but ignore the examples that don't support your point. Of the past twenty years, has there more often than not been defensive stoppers there? Yes. Universally? No. Why? Because you can win titles with a defensive liability there.

At worst, you can win titles pairing a defensive liability with good support.

In no way, shape, or form, is it impossible to win an NBA title without a plus defender as your starting center.

But hey, we're allowed to disagree.