Siakam to Dallas

[Mavrelous]

Raps would get a better offer elsewhere

Dallas has one of the worst rosters in the league outside of Luka. They would be the last team in the league the Raptors would trade Siakam to. He would be perfect to pair with Luka but the only way Dallas could get him would be in a 3 team trade with a team with actually good prospects/players.

Raptors are one of the worst rosters in the league, 7th worst actually, somehow this doesn't factor when I see Raptors fans valuing their playets.

[zimpy27]

Raps would get a better offer elsewhere

Dallas has one of the worst rosters in the league outside of Luka. They would be the last team in the league the Raptors would trade Siakam to. He would be perfect to pair with Luka but the only way Dallas could get him would be in a 3 team trade with a team with actually good prospects/players.

Raptors are one of the worst rosters in the league, 7th worst actually, somehow this doesn't factor when I see Raptors fans valuing their playets.

In trade for neutral salary I have it as:
Luka for too many picks to put down
Siakam for 4 FRP, 2 swaps
Barnes for 4 FRP
OG for 3 FRP
DFS, Wood, FVV for 1 FRP
Green, Dinwiddie, Kleber, GTJ for 1 swap
Bullock, Hardy, Banton, Achiuwa, Koloko for 2 SRPs

Cutting off Luka and Siakam. Dallas have 2 FRPs, 3 swaps, 4 SRPs. Raptors have 8 FRPs, 1 swap, 6 SRPs

I think the value difference comes from Raptors having younger wings with good contracts.

[Mavrelous]

Dallas has one of the worst rosters in the league outside of Luka. They would be the last team in the league the Raptors would trade Siakam to. He would be perfect to pair with Luka but the only way Dallas could get him would be in a 3 team trade with a team with actually good prospects/players.

Raptors are one of the worst rosters in the league, 7th worst actually, somehow this doesn't factor when I see Raptors fans valuing their playets.

In trade for neutral salary I have it as:
Luka for too many picks to put down
Siakam for 4 FRP, 2 swaps
Barnes for 4 FRP
OG for 3 FRP
DFS, Wood, FVV for 1 FRP
Green, Dinwiddie, Kleber, GTJ for 1 swap
Bullock, Hardy, Banton, Achiuwa, Koloko for 2 SRPs

Cutting off Luka and Siakam. Dallas have 2 FRPs, 3 swaps, 4 SRPs. Raptors have 8 FRPs, 1 swap, 6 SRPs

I think the value difference comes from Raptors having younger wings with good contracts.

Pick is a vague term, 5 years from now pick have lower value than 4th pick overall, and higher value than say, Nets pick next year.
Holiday was traded for a bad contract and 3 picks and 2 swaps, Bledsoe is worse contract than Bertan+expiring deals, this is where I have Siakam value, if Massai wants to pull off another Gobert trade, then he can look for someone else to deal with.
There's a reason why none of Raptors players have been traded except 35 y/o Lowrey and expiring Powell, the asking price isn't reasonable, 7th pick and TPE from POR was a great offer, and Massai wanted more.

[daoneandonly]

Yea I can't agree that the Raps have a trash roster, the pieces just don't fit. But take all the players on both rosters, Toronto by a landslide

Luka
Siakam
Barnes/OG
DFS
Dinwiddie
FVV
Trent
Wood
Boucher

[Yenrallik1111]

DAL out: Bertans, Dwight Powell, Josh Green, Jaden Hardy, Pinson, 2025 DAL 1st, 2025 DAL 2nd, 2026 swap (any pick owned by TOR), 2027 DAL 1st, 2027 DAL 2nd, 2028 swap (any pick owned by TOR), 2029 DAL 1st
DAL in: Siakam, Reddish

Mavs go all in for Siakam, who I think is a really good Robin for Luka and offers balance to the team.


TOR out: Siakam, Flynn
TOR in: Bertans, Powell, Green, Hardy, 2025 DAL 1st, 2026 swap (any pick owned by TOR), 2027 DAL 1st, 2028 swap (any pick owned by TOR), 2029 DAL 1st

Raptors bank on Dallas moving Luka at some point and profiting off a bunch of future unprotected picks and swaps.


NYK out: Reddish
NYK in: Flynn, Pinson, 2025 DAL 2nd, 2027 DAL 2nd, protections removed on 2023 DAL 1st

Knicks play a small role here, get a couple 2nds and cut salary.

raptors bank on the mavs moving Luka?????? did they fire masai and hire a former wal-mart manager??? beyond terrible reasoning. huge pass on this

[Topofthekey]

Interesting trade

Mavericks basically mortgage their future to go all in with Siakam

On paper, Luka + Siakam + a competent supporting cast should be a contender

How long is the window though?

Assuming their offer Siakam the max in order to retain him, they basically have little to no avenue to improve in the next 5 years

Interesting high risk, high reward move

[Thaddy]

Raps would get a better offer elsewhere

Dallas has one of the worst rosters in the league outside of Luka. They would be the last team in the league the Raptors would trade Siakam to. He would be perfect to pair with Luka but the only way Dallas could get him would be in a 3 team trade with a team with actually good prospects/players.

Raptors are one of the worst rosters in the league, 7th worst actually, somehow this doesn't factor when I see Raptors fans valuing their playets.

Because they have major roster holes and overlapping talent.

[Mavrelous]

Dallas has one of the worst rosters in the league outside of Luka. They would be the last team in the league the Raptors would trade Siakam to. He would be perfect to pair with Luka but the only way Dallas could get him would be in a 3 team trade with a team with actually good prospects/players.

Raptors are one of the worst rosters in the league, 7th worst actually, somehow this doesn't factor when I see Raptors fans valuing their playets.

Because they have major roster holes and overlapping talent.

Bad excuse, They haven't been a great defensive team since Kawhi, Gasol and Ibaka left, average at best, DAL was top 5 defense last year with strong rotation and worse cwnter rotatio, every player at every position for the Raptors is advertised as either defensive juggernaut or good defensive player, their record needs reconciling with how these players are advertised.

[HartfordWhalers]

Siakam is good.

If the argument is Siakam is not good because of {whole team win loss after half a season}, it is a bad argument.

[Thaddy]

Raptors are one of the worst rosters in the league, 7th worst actually, somehow this doesn't factor when I see Raptors fans valuing their playets.

Because they have major roster holes and overlapping talent.

Bad excuse, They haven't been a great defensive team since Kawhi, Gasol and Ibaka left, average at best, DAL was top 5 defense last year with strong rotation and worse cwnter rotatio, every player at every position for the Raptors is advertised as either defensive juggernaut or good defensive player, their record needs reconciling with how these players are advertised.

Other than Trent and VanVleet they don't have any great defensive guards and they have both been overused the past few years.

OG, Siakam, Barnes, Achiuwa, and a few others are playing out of their standard position. That's going to make them look worse on defense.

A game by game example... Achiuwa is at his best as a small ball center, but they have him in as their small forward. The same happens with Boucher, who also plays the 3 while he's best suited to be a small ball 5. You can see how Boucher's production went down after the 2021 season, he was asked to mostly play at SF which hurt his numbers across the board.

[Apz]

Dallas has one of the worst rosters in the league outside of Luka. They would be the last team in the league the Raptors would trade Siakam to. He would be perfect to pair with Luka but the only way Dallas could get him would be in a 3 team trade with a team with actually good prospects/players.

Raptors are one of the worst rosters in the league, 7th worst actually, somehow this doesn't factor when I see Raptors fans valuing their playets.

Because they have major roster holes and overlapping talent.

So the conclusion is that masai sucks at building a cohersive roster?

[Thaddy]

So the conclusion is that masai sucks at building a cohersive roster?

Masai is one of few managers to win a championship in a non-marquee city. He's top 5 at worst in the league.

The idea behind the current roster build was there would be growing pains. There is an obvious lack of shooting, but it's realistic to assume a young player improves their shooting than their measurements, athleticism, and character.

This can be summed by saying that if you trade to cover a weakness, there will be another weakness that opens up. That's how you get 10 trades in one season like 2K.

[HartfordWhalers]

Raptors are one of the worst rosters in the league, 7th worst actually, somehow this doesn't factor when I see Raptors fans valuing their playets.

Because they have major roster holes and overlapping talent.

So the conclusion is that masai sucks at building a cohersive roster?

Is there a secret prize posters get for the most reductive argument posted?

Yes, if we are just going by the 46 games so far this season, then the GM of Toronto would currently be the 24th best gm, with that ranking capable of moving several spots each day.

On the other hand, that argument is really too stupid to bother taking serious and rebutting right?

Some random thoughts for you to mull over on why that might be too reductive
46 games is a small sample
Particularly when compared against a full career that goes back to 2010 as a gm
And that a team can have injuries or players develop health issues such that their performance can change dramatically -- look at FVV for a sample of why Toronto has massively struggled this year versus expectation
And that winning every single season would be an unrealistic benchmark for a gm in general.

The gap between Luka and Dallas and Siakam and Toronto is a grand total of 4 games back, if it were reversed I wouldn't expect people to seriously post that luka must be bad because his team is underperforming.

But, I will say there is an argument that all of Toronto isn't going well, and I don't think anyone should be valuing FVV like an all star right now for instance.

[Mavrelous]

Because they have major roster holes and overlapping talent.

So the conclusion is that masai sucks at building a cohersive roster?

Is there a secret prize posters get for the most reductive argument posted?

Yes, if we are just going by the 46 games so far this season, then the GM of Toronto would currently be the 24th best gm, with that ranking capable of moving several spots each day.

On the other hand, that argument is really too stupid to bother taking serious and rebutting right?

Some random thoughts for you to mull over on why that might be too reductive
46 games is a small sample
Particularly when compared against a full career that goes back to 2010 as a gm
And that a team can have injuries or players develop health issues such that their performance can change dramatically -- look at FVV for a sample of why Toronto has massively struggled this year versus expectation
And that winning every single season would be an unrealistic benchmark for a gm in general.

The gap between Luka and Dallas and Siakam and Toronto is a grand total of 4 games back, if it were reversed I wouldn't expect people to seriously post that luka must be bad because his team is underperforming.

But, I will say there is an argument that all of Toronto isn't going well, and I don't think anyone should be valuing FVV like an all star right now for instance.

And Mavs players other than Luka are valued as overpaid to neutral.
On the 1st page of thos board we have
FVV and GTJ valed as Lakers unprotected 1sts (plural)
OG more than Murphy III, Lakers/NOP 1st, currently 8th overall.
Siakam as 2 medium prospects + 3 1sts + 2 swaps
Barnes is top tier rookies scale contract.
Maybe there is overvaluation going on.

I'd gladly send 3 1sts, 2 swaps, Bertans, and trade Bullock for expiring to send to TOR, acting like this is too little seems detached from reality, we have example of a team wrecking their rotation for a star player and how it turned out.

[oldncreaky]

Yea I can't agree that the Raps have a trash roster, the pieces just don't fit. But take all the players on both rosters, Toronto by a landslide

Luka
Siakam
Barnes/OG
DFS
Dinwiddie
FVV
Trent
Wood
Boucher

Mostly agree

Luka is worth more than the Raptors could trade; Siakam is the second best by a good margin. I'd put Barnes well ahead of OG in value and lower for on-court play, but YMMV. Once you get past FVV where in "just a guy" territory.

But if they have a pick-up game with these 10 guys, the side with Luka wins, and if Siakam is with Luka, it's a blow-out.

[HartfordWhalers]

So the conclusion is that masai sucks at building a cohersive roster?

Is there a secret prize posters get for the most reductive argument posted?

Yes, if we are just going by the 46 games so far this season, then the GM of Toronto would currently be the 24th best gm, with that ranking capable of moving several spots each day.

On the other hand, that argument is really too stupid to bother taking serious and rebutting right?

Some random thoughts for you to mull over on why that might be too reductive
46 games is a small sample
Particularly when compared against a full career that goes back to 2010 as a gm
And that a team can have injuries or players develop health issues such that their performance can change dramatically -- look at FVV for a sample of why Toronto has massively struggled this year versus expectation
And that winning every single season would be an unrealistic benchmark for a gm in general.

The gap between Luka and Dallas and Siakam and Toronto is a grand total of 4 games back, if it were reversed I wouldn't expect people to seriously post that luka must be bad because his team is underperforming.

But, I will say there is an argument that all of Toronto isn't going well, and I don't think anyone should be valuing FVV like an all star right now for instance.

And Mavs players other than Luka are valued as overpaid to neutral.
On the 1st page of thos board we have
FVV and GTJ valed as Lakers unprotected 1sts (plural)
OG more than Murphy III, Lakers/NOP 1st, currently 8th overall.
Siakam as 2 medium prospects + 3 1sts + 2 swaps
Barnes is top tier rookies scale contract.
Maybe there is overvaluation going on.

I'd gladly send 3 1sts, 2 swaps, Bertans, and trade Bullock for expiring to send to TOR, acting like this is too little seems detached from reality, we have example of a team wrecking their rotation for a star player and how it turned out.

-- Barnes is valued off potential versus current ability.

-- I think the guards are getting overrated in some threads, but it is also taking back a huge amount of overpaid salary in any LAL deal. The cost associated should really be split, between what it takes to move that overpaid salary and what the expiring guards are worth (and then imo more like 1 pick + a little versus 2).

-- OG is controversial. I'm a fan but understand some aren't. Even as a fan I wouldn't give up a pick that could be top 4 this year.

-- I think your Siakiam offer looks solid, but I might say no still as Toronto.

And I think that is where the focus should be in essence. Not mischaracterizing Bertans, or mischaracterizing Siakam based off a team stat, but on what is a fair and best offer Toronto might get. Okay, here is an offer for 3 1sts, some bad salary (not a surprise in a deal that big), some swaps and some meh. Who else can beat that? We really should consider having a Siakam thread, and see, because maybe that is the top offer or maybe there is more of a centerpiece offer out there. As a general rule, if you don't have quality you need to make it up with quantity and lots of it and with potential upside.

[shrink]

So the conclusion is that masai sucks at building a cohersive roster?

FWIW, I assumed this as sarcasm. I know sarcasm doesn’t come through well on these boards (hint: use the green font), but we all know Masai is a very good GM. I think Apz point was:

CanadianBacon said DAL is mediocre, because their roster is mediocre and their players have no trade value.

On the other hand, TOR is mediocre, but their roster is good with valuable players, it’s just that they are playing out of position.

[Mavrelous]

Is there a secret prize posters get for the most reductive argument posted?

Yes, if we are just going by the 46 games so far this season, then the GM of Toronto would currently be the 24th best gm, with that ranking capable of moving several spots each day.

On the other hand, that argument is really too stupid to bother taking serious and rebutting right?

Some random thoughts for you to mull over on why that might be too reductive
46 games is a small sample
Particularly when compared against a full career that goes back to 2010 as a gm
And that a team can have injuries or players develop health issues such that their performance can change dramatically -- look at FVV for a sample of why Toronto has massively struggled this year versus expectation
And that winning every single season would be an unrealistic benchmark for a gm in general.

The gap between Luka and Dallas and Siakam and Toronto is a grand total of 4 games back, if it were reversed I wouldn't expect people to seriously post that luka must be bad because his team is underperforming.

But, I will say there is an argument that all of Toronto isn't going well, and I don't think anyone should be valuing FVV like an all star right now for instance.

And Mavs players other than Luka are valued as overpaid to neutral.
On the 1st page of thos board we have
FVV and GTJ valed as Lakers unprotected 1sts (plural)
OG more than Murphy III, Lakers/NOP 1st, currently 8th overall.
Siakam as 2 medium prospects + 3 1sts + 2 swaps
Barnes is top tier rookies scale contract.
Maybe there is overvaluation going on.

I'd gladly send 3 1sts, 2 swaps, Bertans, and trade Bullock for expiring to send to TOR, acting like this is too little seems detached from reality, we have example of a team wrecking their rotation for a star player and how it turned out.

-- Barnes is valued off potential versus current ability.

-- I think the guards are getting overrated in some threads, but it is also taking back a huge amount of overpaid salary in any LAL deal. The cost associated should really be split, between what it takes to move that overpaid salary and what the expiring guards are worth (and then imo more like 1 pick + a little versus 2).

-- OG is controversial. I'm a fan but understand some aren't. Even as a fan I wouldn't give up a pick that could be top 4 this year.

-- I think your Siakiam offer looks solid, but I might say no still as Toronto.

And I think that is where the focus should be in essence. Not mischaracterizing Bertans, or mischaracterizing Siakam based off a team stat, but on what is a fair and best offer Toronto might get. Okay, here is an offer for 3 1sts, some bad salary (not a surprise in a deal that big), some swaps and some meh. Who else can beat that? We really should consider having a Siakam thread, and see, because maybe that is the top offer or maybe there is more of a centerpiece offer out there. As a general rule, if you don't have quality you need to make it up with quantity and lots of it and with potential upside.

And I think th discussion should start from what is the Siakam trade?
Should Dallas come and knock Raptors socks off for Siakam? Dallas can't and shouldn't do that.
Did TOR reach the final stage of this iteration, FVV, GTJ and Siakam need extention, and TOR understand this isn't it? This is the Jrue Holiday or Harden trades, and Bertans + expirings + 1sts is the deal IMO.
If there are LAC in PG13 and MIN in Gobert trade out there willing to trade for Siakam, then absolutely, this isn't good enough, we'll wait and see who is this team, the question is, were these good trades teams should strive to acheive? Maybe, but way too rich for my blood.

[Tripod]

MU can still be good, but make mistakes.

He has failed miserably at finding the Raps a real C the last 3 years. As a result, you have no rim protection and you have guys constantly in mismatches.

Guards? We know the Raps have not had capable bench guards either the last 2 years.

This will be a big deadline and offseason for MU and the future direction of the Raps.

[Resistance]

In regards to the Toronto starters having to do so much because the bench is so bad, that isn't always true.

Minnessota at Denver (Wednesday)
Toronto at Minnesota

Minutes Wednesday night at Denver


Toronto..................Minutes......+/-
OG Anunoby..............35:36.........0
Barnes....................38:58.........3
Siakam....................40:35........0
Trent......................36:26......-12
FVV........................36:26......-12
_________________________________
Precious..................20:48........2
Hernangomez...........12:29.......-5
Wieskamp*..............11:34.......10
Thad.......................7:08........4

Minnesota.............Minutes......+/-
Anderson................33:31.......15
34:29
McDaniels...............37:17.........5
33:56
Naz Reid................22:05........16
25:57
Edwards................39:39........12
37:11
D Russell...............33:48..........2
31:44
_________________________________
Nathan Knight..........8:37.........-7
4:19
Prince..................23:39........-23
31:36
Nowell.................17:47..........0
14:13
Wendell Moore........3:26..........-6
9:11
Luka Garza*..........14:23..........-1
17:24
Matt Ryan*..............5:49..........-3
0

Khem Birch
DNP - Coach's Decision

Chris Boucher
DNP - Coach's Decision


INACTIVE PLAYERS

TOR: Otto Porter Jr., Dalano Banton

MIN: Jordan McLaughlin, Austin Rivers, Rudy Gobert, Karl-Anthony Towns

Minnesota played in Denver on Wednesday night and supposedly they didn't get back to Minnesota until 4 AM. Toronto was off Wednesday night. Per the trade values suggested by some in this Forum, only McDaniels and Edwards are thought as comparable to the Toronto starters (Siakam, Trent, FVV, Barnes and OG).

The Toronto bench was decent and weren't the reason why the Raptors lost.

With Gobert and Towns both out, Minnesota had Reid (#3 Big) start with Knight (#4 Big) and Garza (Two Way) as Bigs off the bench.

The Tornto bench Bigs (Boucher & Birch ) were DNP - Coach's Decision.

________________________________
Weiskamp -- 10 Day Contract. Luka Garza -- Two Way Contract. Matt Ryan -- Two Way Contract