2013 Draft: Ranking by Trade Value: Top 10 done.

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Re: 2013 Draft: Ranking by Trade Value: Noel 4th, 5th voting open 

Post#81 » by HartfordWhalers » Sun Mar 15, 2015 5:03 pm

shrink wrote:Player A: FG 49.9%, RPG 8.6, PPG 9.5, no injury history
Player B: FG 45.2%, RPG 7.8, PPG 9.1, major injury history, 2-3 times as expensive.

We are potentially 140 games into theses sophomore's careers. Ranking is always subjective, but I think I put more importance on what they have actually done rather than their 2013 mock draft spot.


Player A: Defensive Stats: 56.3% FGA% allowed at Rim -- worst in the league, 2.6 DBPM, 1.5 DWS; 25 years old.
Player B: Defensive Stats: 45.4% FGA% allowed at Rim -- third best in the league, 4.7 DBPM, 3.5 DWS, not yet 21.

If you want to cherry pick stats, I think most people would be interested in defensive ones for young (okay one isn't) bigs.
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Re: 2013 Draft: Ranking by Trade Value: Noel 4th, 5th voting open 

Post#82 » by HartfordWhalers » Sun Mar 15, 2015 5:05 pm

loserX wrote:That letter also describes a 32-year-old Kevin Martin as "emerging". I wouldn't worry too much about it :)

As for the current poll...man, I don't know. I'm torn between Len and MCW at the moment.


And misspells two of the players it hypes up. I don't think any legitimate NBA debate should be compared to it, and while a separate topic, I think there absolutely is legitimate nba debate about the rookie of the year so far.

And yeah, if I could have split my vote between those two I would have. I don't see any separation between MCW and Len.
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Re: 2013 Draft: Ranking by Trade Value: Noel 4th, 5th voting open 

Post#83 » by Mattya » Sun Mar 15, 2015 5:09 pm

HartfordWhalers wrote:
loserX wrote:That letter also describes a 32-year-old Kevin Martin as "emerging". I wouldn't worry too much about it :)

As for the current poll...man, I don't know. I'm torn between Len and MCW at the moment.


And misspells two of the players it hypes up. I don't think any legitimate NBA debate should be compared to it, and while a separate topic, I think there absolutely is legitimate nba debate about the rookie of the year so far.

And yeah, if I could have split my vote between those two I would have. I don't see any separation between MCW and Len.


It isn't legitimate. It's silly. Anyone who takes that letter seriously is just ridiculous. The guy is trying to sell the team to a random fan. Of course he would hype up his players. At least he responded to the fan. How people view that as negative haha
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Re: 2013 Draft: Ranking by Trade Value: Noel 4th, 5th voting open 

Post#84 » by shrink » Sun Mar 15, 2015 5:23 pm

HartfordWhalers wrote:
shrink wrote:Player A: FG 49.9%, RPG 8.6, PPG 9.5, no injury history
Player B: FG 45.2%, RPG 7.8, PPG 9.1, major injury history, 2-3 times as expensive.

We are potentially 140 games into theses sophomore's careers. Ranking is always subjective, but I think I put more importance on what they have actually done rather than their 2013 mock draft spot.


Player A: Defensive Stats: 56.3% FGA% allowed at Rim -- worst in the league, 2.6 DBPM, 1.5 DWS; 25 years old.
Player B: Defensive Stats: 45.4% FGA% allowed at Rim -- third best in the league, 4.7 DBPM, 3.5 DWS, not yet 21.

If you want to cherry pick stats, I think most people would be interested in defensive ones for young (okay one isn't) bigs.


So points, rebounds and FG% is "cherry-picking" stats?

You want to stick with this take, HW?
Sign5 wrote:Yea not happening, I expected a better retort but what do I expect from realgm(ers) in 2025. Just quote and state things that lack context, then repeat the same thing over and over as if something new and profound was said. Just lol.
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Re: 2013 Draft: Ranking by Trade Value: Noel 4th, 5th voting open 

Post#85 » by HartfordWhalers » Sun Mar 15, 2015 5:26 pm

shrink wrote:
HartfordWhalers wrote:
shrink wrote:Player A: FG 49.9%, RPG 8.6, PPG 9.5, no injury history
Player B: FG 45.2%, RPG 7.8, PPG 9.1, major injury history, 2-3 times as expensive.

We are potentially 140 games into theses sophomore's careers. Ranking is always subjective, but I think I put more importance on what they have actually done rather than their 2013 mock draft spot.


Player A: Defensive Stats: 56.3% FGA% allowed at Rim -- worst in the league, 2.6 DBPM, 1.5 DWS; 25 years old.
Player B: Defensive Stats: 45.4% FGA% allowed at Rim -- third best in the league, 4.7 DBPM, 3.5 DWS, not yet 21.

If you want to cherry pick stats, I think most people would be interested in defensive ones for young (okay one isn't) bigs.


So points, rebounds and FG% is "cherry-picking" stats?

You want to stick with this take, HW?


I think we both know that skipping defense entirely for a center in todays game is absurd. Then again, maybe we don't. I'm happy to eat crow on that. And comparing a guy at 1.4m and a guy at 3.3m as 2-3 times seems a slanted way of saying that monetary difference, versus spelling out how 'big' of a gap it is.
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Re: 2013 Draft: Ranking by Trade Value: Noel 4th, 5th voting open 

Post#86 » by shrink » Sun Mar 15, 2015 5:29 pm

No, shame on me for cherry-picking points rebounds and FG%.

Clearly no one would be interested in such things, and I shouldn't have posted such arcane and irrelevant statistics.

Ps : you better go after NBA.com, ESPN, etc, who readily present my "cherry picked stats" and do not quickly post your non-cherry-picked stats! Go fight the world
Sign5 wrote:Yea not happening, I expected a better retort but what do I expect from realgm(ers) in 2025. Just quote and state things that lack context, then repeat the same thing over and over as if something new and profound was said. Just lol.
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Re: 2013 Draft: Ranking by Trade Value: Noel 4th, 5th voting open 

Post#87 » by HartfordWhalers » Sun Mar 15, 2015 5:31 pm

shrink wrote:No, shame on me for cherry-picking points rebounds and FG%.

Clearly no one would be interested in such things, and I shouldn't have posted such arcane and irrelevant statistics.


Or portray contract the way you did, and skipping half of the game -- the half a defensive specialist is known for. Your portrayal was set up to be as slanted as possible, not as accurate as possible. We both know it, pretending otherwise isn't becoming from you.

Which is why everyone on here in the polls so far didn't think the comparison between the two is close.
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Re: 2013 Draft: Ranking by Trade Value: Noel 4th, 5th voting open 

Post#88 » by shrink » Sun Mar 15, 2015 5:33 pm

HartfordWhalers wrote:
shrink wrote:No, shame on me for cherry-picking points rebounds and FG%.

Clearly no one would be interested in such things, and I shouldn't have posted such arcane and irrelevant statistics.


Or portray contract the way you did, and skipping half of the game -- the half a defensive specialist is known for. Your portrayal was set up to be as slanted as possible, not as accurate as possible. We both know it, pretending otherwise isn't becoming from you.

Which is why everyone on here in the polls so far didn't think the comparison between the two is close.


Go pick your fights with ESPN and NBA.com

Go accuse them of having an agenda
Sign5 wrote:Yea not happening, I expected a better retort but what do I expect from realgm(ers) in 2025. Just quote and state things that lack context, then repeat the same thing over and over as if something new and profound was said. Just lol.
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Re: 2013 Draft: Ranking by Trade Value: Noel 4th, 5th voting open 

Post#89 » by loserX » Sun Mar 15, 2015 6:28 pm

Sorry, I'm with HW on this particular point. If we are comparing two defensive specialists, then their offensive statistics can be a useful tiebreaker. But first you have to determine that they're tied on defense, and the stats for this year at least suggest that they are not. (It'd be like comparing Kevin Martin and Jason Richardson on their defensive metrics and declaring J-Rich the more valuable, while ignoring their offence!)

Not knocking Dieng at all, I think he's a very valuable player, but I'd put Noel as having higher trade value in no small part because of the one stat that doesn't show up in the box-scores OR the advanced stats: their age. Dieng at this point is a year and a half older than Derrick Favors is! While Noel is 21. I'd expect Dieng's raw stats to be higher this year, especially since he is a sophomore and Noel is a rookie.
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Re: 2013 Draft: Ranking by Trade Value: Noel 4th, 5th voting open 

Post#90 » by shrink » Sun Mar 15, 2015 6:40 pm

If stats are incomplete without things like DBPM, (hypocrite says the OTHER guy is "cherry picking!"), then you better go accuse Trader Joe of having an agenda every year too. When he has posted stats for most of our Top 25 Trade Polls over the years, he neglects this important stat. Heck, you better make that attack against 98% of REALGM posters.

Where is your consistency? Where are the attacks about agenda? Will you say "maybe he doesn't know skipping defensive stats for a center are absurd?"

The emperor has no clothes when he is calling vital stats like rebounds and points as "cherry-picking," then he runs off to less common websites to find rarer stats that supports a player on his favorite team. That's complete hypocrisy.
Sign5 wrote:Yea not happening, I expected a better retort but what do I expect from realgm(ers) in 2025. Just quote and state things that lack context, then repeat the same thing over and over as if something new and profound was said. Just lol.
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Re: 2013 Draft: Ranking by Trade Value: Noel 4th, 5th voting open 

Post#91 » by bondom34 » Sun Mar 15, 2015 6:47 pm

No, stats are incomplete if you are trying to compare defensive players using offensive stats.
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Re: 2013 Draft: Ranking by Trade Value: Noel 4th, 5th voting open 

Post#92 » by shrink » Sun Mar 15, 2015 7:00 pm

bondom34 wrote:No, stats are incomplete if you are trying to compare defensive players using offensive stats.


You create your own fences, by saying Dieng is a defensive center.

Guess what? His points and rebounds actually are counted towards his team's success.

How about you rate them as basketball players, not defensive basketball players?
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Re: 2013 Draft: Ranking by Trade Value: Noel 4th, 5th voting open 

Post#93 » by HartfordWhalers » Sun Mar 15, 2015 7:00 pm

bondom34 wrote:No, stats are incomplete if you are trying to compare defensive players using offensive stats.


That would be my take. You can find different ones, although the rim protection ones at NBA.com are pretty widely available and publicized often, I certainly wouldn't call nba.com an uncommon cite.

Real plus minus has a lot of faults and I don't like using it because of them, but I wouldn't be surprised if someone started including something like that (I like the box plus minus better, but will agree it isn't as well known versus the mass publicity push rpm has had), the same way people used to hail per and include that.

{For those that like it and want the most popular stat, Player B has a DRPM of 3.17 (7th of 73) centers and Player A has one of -0.72 (62nd of 73 centers), making the defensive gap look extremely large in 1 popular metric.}

And yes, presenting the contract and injury situation (especially the way done for both) and skipping defense and age when talking about young defensive centers was absolutely cherry picking.
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Re: 2013 Draft: Ranking by Trade Value: Noel 4th, 5th voting open 

Post#94 » by bondom34 » Sun Mar 15, 2015 7:05 pm

shrink wrote:
bondom34 wrote:No, stats are incomplete if you are trying to compare defensive players using offensive stats.


You create your own fences, by saying Dieng is a defensive center.

Guess what? His points and rebounds actually are counted towards his team's success.

How about you rate them as basketball players, not defensive basketball players?

They are, but when I'm looking at 2 guys, I'm taking boxscore numbers into account somewhat, but considering team role definitely giving defensive metrics a lot of weight. For the center position, defense is generally valued more than offense. As well, if we're considering trade value, you have to take into account that Dieng is years older.
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Re: 2013 Draft: Ranking by Trade Value: Noel 4th, 5th voting open 

Post#95 » by shrink » Sun Mar 15, 2015 7:24 pm

HartfordWhalers wrote:And yes, presenting the contract and injury situation (especially the way done for both)


Wow, you can actually complain about the way both were presented?

All I said for injury was "major injury." Is that untrue? Was he not injured? Or was it not major? You get your panties in a bunch over the way those two words were used to summarize?

And 2-3 times as expensive? Do you think anyone here does not realize these two are on rookie scale? This is the REALgm board, and money deserves a couple words in any player comparison, don't you think. Moreover, I know that as the years add on, Noels contract will grow much bigger from his lottery pick - a fact that has been important to MIN that led to the dismissal of a few of their lottery picks, when they grew to be more expensive than they were worth. That will not happen with Dieng.

As for defense, those are not common stats presented on ESPN or most of the major services, and i didn't bother to go hunt them down from arcane sites. The honest truth is that there is still no truly representative statistic to rate a players defense. Rebounds, points, FG% are discrete and easily quantified and comparable. And finally, you guys are pigeonholing Dieng by calling him a defensive center - if Noels makes a three

Finlly, as for age, I could also have talked about NBA experience, or ability to play and avoid injury, or several other equally valid comparison points, but did not think to include any of them as more important than, oh,... production?


Overall, there is no wrong answer for these polls. People can rank them on whatever criteria they think are important. If you don't like the criteria, it is very uncool to accuse the poster of having an agenda, or accuse them of not being smart enough to include a stat you think is important.
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Re: 2013 Draft: Ranking by Trade Value: Noel 4th, 5th voting open 

Post#96 » by bondom34 » Sun Mar 15, 2015 7:27 pm

shrink wrote:
HartfordWhalers wrote:And yes, presenting the contract and injury situation (especially the way done for both)


Wow, you can actually complain about the way both were presented?

All I said for injury was "major injury." Is that untrue? Was he not injured? Or was it not major? You get your panties in a bunch over the way those two words were used to summarize?

And 2-3 times as expensive? Do you think anyone here does not realize these two are on rookie scale? This is the REALgm board, and money deserves a couple words in any player comparison, don't you think. Moreover, I know that as the years add on, Noels contract will grow much bigger from his lottery pick - a fact that has been important to MIN that led to the dismissal of a few of their lottery picks, when they grew to be more expensive than they were worth. That will not happen with Dieng.

As for defense, those are not common stats presented on ESPN or most of the major services, and i didn't bother to go hunt them down from arcane sites. The honest truth is that there is still no truly representative statistic to rate a players defense. rebounds, points, FG% are discrete and easily quantified and comparable. And finally, you guys are pigeonholing Dieng by calling him a defensive center - if Noels makes a three

Finlly, as for age, I could also have talked about NBA experience, or ability to play and avoid injury, or several other equally valid comparison points, but did not think to include any of them as more important than, oh,... production?



Overall, there is no wrong answer for these polls. People can rank them on whatever criteria they think are important. If you don't like the criteria, it is very uncool to accuse the poster of having an agenda, or accuse them of not being smart enough to include a stat you think is important.

I'm just going to focus on this, but I agree people can rank however they like. Heck I can vote Adams most valuable and better than Giannis, but I'd be flatly wrong. There are defensive metrics that aren't hard to find. FG percentage allowed at the rim, PER allowed, rim protection from nyloncalculus, DRPM, DRAPM, all off the top of my head. Age is always important for young players too, its why some guys are drafted later than others in the first place. To say that these things are too hard to find or don't matter is just intellectually dishonest.
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Re: 2013 Draft: Ranking by Trade Value: Noel 4th, 5th voting open 

Post#97 » by HartfordWhalers » Sun Mar 15, 2015 7:34 pm

shrink wrote:
HartfordWhalers wrote:And yes, presenting the contract and injury situation (especially the way done for both)
You get your panties in a bunch over the way those two words were used to summarize?



Oh look its shrink being... shrink.

In terms of the contract, you claim everyone here knows they are on rookie contracts. Yet out of all the things you see fit to present, you declare one player 2-3 times cheaper, and think that is not a biased representation of the 1.4m versus 3.3m contracts?

Noel -- sorry Player B -- had an injury 2 years ago, and is clearly fully recovered. Picking this to list versus anything defensive, or age? Yes, I am saying you are presenting a very biased picture. You are. You are skipping basic big parts of basketball and trying to find something else instead that only supports your guy.

Are you going to go back to name calling as an argument?
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Re: 2013 Draft: Ranking by Trade Value: Noel 4th, 5th voting open 

Post#98 » by saintEscaton » Sun Mar 15, 2015 9:26 pm

Lol Kidd might be able to work some magic on MCW''s decision making abilities/shot selection, but he will still be an inefficient volume scorer limited by his mediocre shooting ability. Its gunna take a lot to remedy his chucking nature. He was given free reign in Philly as the tank commander which really hurt his development and allowed him to stat pad
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Re: 2013 Draft: Ranking by Trade Value: Noel 4th, 5th voting open 

Post#99 » by saintEscaton » Sun Mar 15, 2015 9:32 pm

bondom34 wrote:
wickedwrister wrote:
bondom34 wrote:Yeah, I'm with Chuck. I don't see anyone else who fetches the Lakers pick I go MCW and Adams next



same here, I think most likely one or both of Dieng or Len who are much steadier will have better careers but MCW has by far the highest ceiling of the guys left.

The thing is, I definitely don't think I'd vote this way if it were best players, I just don't see any other guys here who'd get that Lakers pick in a trade.


We gave up the Lakers pick in a 3-team deal to net Brandon Knight. So I dont see how it directly gauges MCW's value as a trade asset.
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Re: 2013 Draft: Ranking by Trade Value: Noel 4th, 5th voting open 

Post#100 » by HartfordWhalers » Sun Mar 15, 2015 9:36 pm

saintEscaton wrote:
bondom34 wrote:
wickedwrister wrote:

same here, I think most likely one or both of Dieng or Len who are much steadier will have better careers but MCW has by far the highest ceiling of the guys left.

The thing is, I definitely don't think I'd vote this way if it were best players, I just don't see any other guys here who'd get that Lakers pick in a trade.


We gave up the Lakers pick in a 3-team deal to net Brandon Knight. So I dont see how it directly gauges MCW's value as a trade asset.


Philly's involvement was solely as a MCW for Laker pick. From Milwaukee's side, it was basically an entirely separate deal folded in, with the pick (part of the return for Knight, along with Ennis and Plumlee) flipped directly for MCW.

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